PCIT vs PC hesitation

[Orange1 0]

This may be a bit pedantic but I've just seen another post describing what is probably a PC in the burble as a "pilot chute in tow". I was taught it is a hesitation, and not a mal as it can be fixed easily, whereas as a "real" PC in tow is a mal (that sometimes can be cleared, apparently by a whack to the container, and sometimes just won't extract the D-bag, e.g. packing error).

I was taught that if nothing is happening, do a quick look over your shoulder to see what's going on - if it is a hesitation that will be enough to clear the burble, if a PCIT you should be able to see the PC trailing behind you and act accordingly (of course if it's a total you won't see anything, but you'll also know it's not a hesitation). I had 2 or 3 hesitations during AFF (we used ripcords/spring loaded PCs) and they were never an issue, but I've seen more than one post here about people getting ready to cut away from these situations (seeming to clear the burble as they move towards doing EPs), and some of these posters didn't even seem aware of the possibility that the PC can get caught in the burble.. a bit worrying?

I'm gonna keep on doing what my instructors told me like a good little newbie, but if anyone here has a problem with the above I'd be happy to take it to them to discuss.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[popsjumper 2]

You are correct on all counts. In-Tow is quite a bit different than Hesitation.

I would suggest, though, that you check your deployment....Arch, Look, Reach, Pull, CHECK.

That CHECK would let you know sooner what is happening back there and quite often could be the difference in preventing the hesitations.

But, as you indicated, check with your instructors, too.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[FlyinseivLP2 0]

I don't really agree. It is in tow until it pulls the pin. After you are on the ground it doesn't matter what you call it. It's what happens in the air that matters. If you throw out and your PC is not pulling the pin and extracting the bag you NOW have a PC in tow. You probably DO NOT know what is causing it and it really doesn't matter. You should have a set plan for this and put it into action. If looking over your shoulder to clear your PC from your burble is your first action and it works great. Maybe yes this was a hesitation but what if it didn't clear it. Now you have to take another action and this should be set in the same plan. Either way you had a PC in tow and you did something about it. Really they are the exact same thing the only difference being if you cut away from it or bounce then it was a PC in tow, but if it happens to clear it then you call it a hesitation.

[Orange1 0]

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I would suggest, though, that you check your deployment....Arch, Look, Reach, Pull, CHECK.

I was taught that sequence when I first went to freefall on a spring-loaded PC (my first ff was after SL, then I moved to AFF) but when I moved to BoC was then taught not to do that because it can dip the shoulder and lead to uneven body position on opening. I guess there's no one way that is going to cover all circumstances. (btw we were not taught to look before reaching, either on ripcord or BoC - just arch, reach, pull - there was a reason given but to be honest I can't remember now what it was; the only "look" in a seqeunce comes in EPs.)

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Andy9o8 0]

I can tell you why Pops said "look" before "reach, but you were taught to just "reach" (without the "look"). It's because when Pops and I were trained Back In The Day, we were taught on round-canopy ripcord gear with the main ripcord handle mounted on the MLW, and back then we were taught the standard count of "arch, look, reach, pull, arch, check". But the switch to modern BOC gear eliminated the "look for the handle" stage, for obvious reasons. Also, it came to be realized that the "look" tended to make students de-arch slightly, compromising body position at deployment time, which has a lot more effect on square canopies than it used to on our old round canopies.

[popsjumper 2]

Andy908 is quite right.

"back-in-the-day"


Without digging a deeper hole....

The OPs original system was ripcord and I assumed that it was, dare I say it, MLW-mounted and looking for the handle was part of the sequence. Lower altitude jumps were common "back-in-the-day" and sometimes you may not have had enough time to not look, not find it and then go back and do the "look". Finding the handle was a little more important than a little instability at pull time.

Yes, as I have been quietly and respectfully informed, thanks "you-know-who-you-are", some ripcord training schools do not teach the "look" whereas some still do. I mean really..with enough training, students should be able to find the ripcord without having to look for it, right? AND we are jumping and pulling at much higher altitudes nowadays.

The mention about it causing instability is spot on when you look down the chest and less pronounced when you look down the side of the body. Again, thanks to "you-know-who-you-are", looking either way can also induce turns which is not good.

Moot point for BOC...you can't see it anyway so no need to look for the handle.

My real point was the "Check" for deployment.
Is deployment OK? Then do the count to allow the canopy to open so you can do your canopy check.

So:
Two valid (and debatable) options:
Arch, Look, Reach, Pull, Check deploymant, 1, 2, 3, 4, Check canopy
Arch, Reach, Pull, Check deployment, 1, 2, 3, 4, Check canopy

Disclaimer: Some schools do not teach the deployment check regardless of system used...I don't like that idea myself...Arch, Reach, Throw, 1, 2, 3, 4, Check canopy.
You have no idea what's happening behind you until it dawns on you that the canopy deployment is not standing you up....Ooooops you just lost almost 1000ft waiting for something that's not going to happen.

I learned about deployment check the hard way. PC hesitation happened to me and I was not happy at the altitude it got fixed and pulled the canopy out. Yeah, I know, dumbass me...lazy throw caused it...never again.


"back-in-the-day"
sheesh

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Schoenauer 0]

I was taught on equipment using the spring loaded PC to wave off, arch, look, reach, pull, check. The check is looking over my shoulder to see that I do not have a PC hesitation or PC in tow.

Today one needs to check the SIM Category-A page 26 in the ’07 manual, or their countries equivalent for the basic procedures.
Briefly it says for main deployment for freefall; arch, reach, pull, and return to original position. After activation of the pilot chute, remain flat, stable and shoulders level though deployment, count to three by thousand, then check for pilot chute deployment.

Memento Mori

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Hey,

I don't doubt that it was my thread from a bit ago that you read. If it was, thats fine, if not this post is still relevant.

This is what I found out after a lot of opinions, theory's and whatnot stemming from my post.

Remember, this is my understanding and not facts.

If you dump and your PC is at "FULL EXTENSION" and nothing is happening, it is towing. I personally don't care about semantics, the PC is not working as intended and I am towing if it is not extracting the main. A PCIT is a PCIT to me as long as it is at full extension. The main factor is the amount of time it tows for. Mine towed anywhere from 1-6 seconds roughly.

If you make a shitty pull and your PC is sitting in your burble, that's not a PCIT, or a PC hesitation. Period.

The difference in a PCIT is knowing what is happening and what your course of action is along with how much time you have.

The first time it happened I was at 3500 ft doing a H+P. I got very scared, but kept my cool. It towed for about 3 seconds. I immediately figured what I was going to do. If at 2700ft it wasn't cleared, I was to chop and deploy my reserve. I did another H+P from 10k and knowing that I had time I rode it out. This time it towed for 6 seconds. As soon as it happened, I knew what was going on and instantly figured my plan. I was going to ride it to about 5 k and dump my reserve. Point is that you have to be aware and be prepared to react.

Anyways, I hope it was my post and it helped someone, but whether anyone though it was a PCIT or not is their own opinion. I KNOW it was towing and that's that.

I didn't reply here to prove anything, I'm simply stating that maybe we shouldn't judge what people think so suddenly. If this person chopped and dumped their reserve in the first second, well that's a different story, but it doesn't matter, it was rational to them to follow that process. Would we prefer to have them do nothing and go in, thinking it would clear? I doubt it.

Please don't take this as a slam or me being arrogant or anything, I simply wanted to post "my" opinion.

Thanks

Chris

EDIT: I just read the post that I think this is referring to. Still applies, I just think it needs to happen, so you know what is going on and how to react.

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[USPA 0]

For student rigs you may be correct. Equipment is not high-performance, so an uneven (=unstable) body position at opening is not a big deal. Also the student doesn't know yet how a good opening "feels". But when we are further into progression, checking deployment before line strech (and even some time after) is a truly bad idea. It could lead to spinning mals and even riser breaks. Checking over your shoulder, when you don't feel deployment initiation is a good idea.

Personally when I have my pilot on my back or on my wing (camerasuit) I know almost instantly, so let's say it takes 2 seconds (rougly 350 feet). There have even been jumps I have not seen my canopy untill it fell behind me after landing.

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[popsjumper 2]

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For student rigs you may be correct. Equipment is not high-performance, so an uneven (=unstable) body position at opening is not a big deal. Also the student doesn't know yet how a good opening "feels".

Correcto Mondo.
And we are addressing that level of expertise, not yours. YMMV.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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I don't really agree. It is in tow until it pulls the pin.

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...Really they are the exact same thing...[.reply]

Hmmmm...I hope that you are NOT saying that you would cutaway a PC hesitation and deploy your reserve.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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[SwampThing 0]

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There have even been jumps I have not seen my canopy untill it fell behind me after landing.

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And that's a good thing?!

The Pessimist says: "It can't possibly get any worse!"
The Optimist says: "Sure it can!"

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[billvon 2,426]

>If you make a shitty pull and your PC is sitting in your burble, that's not a PCIT, or a PC hesitation. Period.

It sorta is. Most PC hesitations are caused by weak throws, resulting in the PC being in your burble.

Most of the 'hesitations' I've seen on my jumps have been during tandems, since there's a video guy videotaping me throwing the "PC" (drouge actually.) A few hesitations I've seen have been the result of a fight over a throwout PC from a student, or a weak throw - and I get a pretty good look at that since I'm right there.

There are a few easy cases:

1) You throw, the PC goes to full extension and just sits there. It's pulling hard but nothing happens. This is the classic PC in tow, and is certainly a mal. You can see the PC and feel it pull.

2) You throw, the PC goes into your burble for a moment, then catches air and deploys. Standard hesitation.

There are also some more questionable cases:

3) You throw, the PC goes into the burble - and stays there. I've seen students have 5 second PC-in-burbles. You can clear them easily by sitting the student up, but if you don't, sometimes they just don't clear themselves.

4) You throw and the PC just "goes away." You know you got it out of the pouch, but where is it? Is it in your burble? Some people have a good burble right under their rig, above their butts. This is similar to 3) but you don't know what's going on.

5) You throw, the PC gets to the limit of the bridle, and just sits there without pulling the pin - but isn't pulling much either. Maybe the PC isn't cocked; maybe the bridle half-hitched around the PC. (Seen that one happen.) Then you have to make a judgement call on how long to wait.

6) PC pulls the pin, then falls back in the burble. This one can be nasty because you can get the bag and lines out and spilling everywhere. Sometimes this clears itself - the bag starts seeing drag and that's enough to deploy the canopy. If it doesn't, you've got a nasty decision - wait or deploy the reserve into the mess. (If there's not enough drag to get the bag over you, there's not enough drag to get it away from you after you cut away.)

Just some other options to consider. We teach pretty straightforward mals in the FJC, but often they're not that cut-and-dried. Fortunately, there's generally a limited number of solutions (possibly try to clear to hard deck, then reserve or cutaway/reserve) so the decision isn't too complex.

[USPA 0]

I am sure a lot of more experienced jumpers occaisionaly do the same, it was ment as an illustration.

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[SwampThing 0]

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I am sure a lot of more experienced jumpers occaisionaly do the same, it was ment as an illustration.

An illustration...I guess I see what you mean, but I personally always look at it just for G.P.

Unless I'm open so low there is no time!

The Pessimist says: "It can't possibly get any worse!"
The Optimist says: "Sure it can!"

[FlyinseivLP2 0]

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I don't really agree. It is in tow until it pulls the pin.

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...Really they are the exact same thing...[.reply]

Hmmmm...I hope that you are NOT saying that you would cutaway a PC hesitation and deploy your reserve.

What I am saying is how long are you going to let it hesitate? A PCIT and a PCH can be caused by the exact same thing. ie...uncocked PC, short closing loop, worn or torn PC. So my question to you is when exactly does it go from being a hesitation to in-tow. What I am saying that it is always an in-tow and if it clears then so be it. When you have a line over is no longer a line over because you cleared it and didn't have to chop? My procedures are the same for a PCIT and what you call a hesitation they are. Check PC over my shoulder spilling air, grab bridle and pop pin if needed and fire reserve if needed.(these are my personal EPs by no means am I saying this is what others should do.)
I understand why you say they are different, but I believe that teaching will lead someone to ride a "hesitation" into the ground. So I say if it hasn't pulled the pin it is in tow, just have your EPs for PCIT to include clearing the burble.
To answer your question YES I WOULD fire my resrve into a hesitation if it lasted to long and I hope you would too.

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[popsjumper 2]

I'll defer to Bill Von's response. He says the same as I but in a much easier to understand manner.
You should read his post.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[AFFI 0]

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There have even been jumps I have not seen my canopy untill it fell behind me after landing.

If any new jumpers out there are influenced by this foolishness then please rethink your complacency and review common sense procedures with a rated instructor.

_

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[USPA 0]

I noticed I can't edit the message, else I would have removed the remark. As stated before it was ment as an illustration intended to state that with experience you'll notice a bad deployment, without the risk of checking with the method mentioned.

Obviously I underestimated the effect such a remark even has on experienced jumper who should know beter, let alone students. (I expected more of even students) so if a mod is around, please remove that single remark.

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[AFFI 0]

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I underestimated the effect such a remark even has on experienced jumper who should know beter.

I sincerely apologize for misunderstand your comment.

As for knowing better?
You would be amazed at how many re-currency courses I have done with “experienced” jumpers that did not know how to deal with malfunctions, perform control checks or canopy piloting – and I am talking about the fundamentals we teach at the FJC.

There have been too many…

-

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[popsjumper 2]

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...You would be amazed at how many re-currency courses I have done with “experienced” jumpers that did not know how to deal with malfunctions, perform control checks or canopy piloting – and I am talking about the fundamentals we teach at the FJC.

There have been too many…

-

It's disheartening to hear that I am not the only one seeing this...and as time goes on, it seems more and more common.

But it always makes me feel good when I can get them back on the right track!

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[AFFI 0]

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It's disheartening to hear that I am not the only one seeing this...and as time goes on, it seems more and more common.

But it always makes me feel good when I can get them back on the right track!

Yup - that is the best part of the job for me to.
-

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[popsjumper 2]

Here's an example of a PCIT.

This is what caused a pilot-chute-in-tow malfunction a while back. The pin somehow got pushed into the kill-line inspection window, and stayed there under the full tension of the pilot chute. Bridles with the inspection window on the pilot chute side of the pin are probably immune to this problem.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[RB_Hammer 0]

Wouldn't you expect that to be found and fixed on a normal equipment check? I know that when I get to that area of the rig, I am looking for a nice smiley face from the pin and I always feel it to make sure it is nice and smooth with nothing that would prevent it from sliding from the loop.

"I'm not lost. I don't know where I'm going, but there's no sense in being late."
Mathew Quigley

[aguila 0]

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they were never an issue, but I've seen more than one post here about people getting ready to cut away from these situations (seeming to clear the burble as they move towards doing EPs), and some of these posters didn't even seem aware of the possibility that the PC can get caught in the burble.. a bit worrying?
reply]

I used a rented chute I loved (ripcord/PC spring loaded ) and ALWAYS had pc hesitation until I packed the PC pointing well down instead of perpendicular to my rig. No more PC hesitation.

Gonzalo

It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet

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