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rmarshall234

PEPs and C-9 canopies

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Jerry,

The steering lines on Precision P-124A canopies are factory set at around half brakes. All the suspension (including brake) lines are attached to Maillon Rapide links ... top of risers ...
The steering lines are inserted a few inches above the M.R. connector links.
When you pull steering lines to shoulder height, the canopy turns slightly slower than a Manta. If you try to pull a steering toggle below shoulder level, toggle pressure increases dramatically and it is difficult to pull toggles to hip level. If anything, toggle-flaring a P-124A was more difficult than doing rear-riser flaring a Manta.

If anyone doubts my arm strength, I did 30 tandems the month before (the Aviator test jumps) on Strong 425 and 520 mains, usually with larger students.

As for the debate about whether it is better to land straight down or slide ... I have over 4,000 tandem jumps and much prefer to slide landings. The worst landings are backwards.

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Sooo it's kind of like a.... ROUND canopy. You've taken a square canopy. Removed all of the positive aspects of the square, which could potentially get some one into trouble, and inserted the behaviors of a round. Only it packs two and a half times as bulky. And the only real difference is that you have more forward speed that can be added to the ground speed when the unconscious or stupid person lands down wind.

Just not seeing the net positives.

Lee
Lee
lee@velocitysportswear.com
www.velocitysportswear.com

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Hi Lee,

Quote

And the only real difference is that you have more forward speed that can be added to the ground speed when the unconscious or stupid person lands down wind.



This was Ted Strong's concern. We know fairly well which way the wind is blowing, or the prevailing winds, when jumping on the dz. Now you have a pilot, in strange territory, has no real idea of the wind, knows almost nothing about the canopy = liability.

Jerry Baumchen

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(Replying to the thread in general)

I see that in the P-124a Aviator manual, RI does want anyone using the rig to have a "controlled program of instruction" on it, if they aren't already a skydiver with 100 jumps. Instruction is suggested to be from a skydiving instructor or rigger and part of it could include something like the ground school of an FJC.

So even the manufacturer does want the rig -- despite the special rigging -- to not just be thrown on the back of whomever is getting a ride in a two seat Pitts.

For the four sizes, 179 to 280, their listed gross weights are from 186 to 300 lbs -- giving conservative max wing loadings in the range of 1.04 to 1.07 depending on size.

They also impose a 15 year life. (That then gets into the questions about whether it is just part of the manual or actual TSO certification.)

(How close to Ravens are the canopies? Are those sizes just relabelled from Raven sizes or actual minor changes in design and shape that affect the old PIA style sizing measurements?)

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We took a P124 and changed the lines and jumped it as a main a few years back,using a Raven main lineset and it performed just like the Raven. The only difference as I remember was the trim and the steering.

I'm with Lee about the C-9 canopy. LSI( who I work for) manufactures and sells a complete BA-22 system and after packing some for a customer they are the proverbial brick shit house in construction and the designer definitely was ahead of his time. Guess thats why they were used in ejection seats for so long. The Navys Thin pack canopy is close as a new design but it may be a moot point once the pilot is removed from the plane.

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Mark and all:
I was wrong about the single side release. The only Aviator I saw was 4 + yrs ago when it was packed at PIA.

I can't remember if the Parapernalia and Butlers are set up the same way? I have packed these two brands of ram airs or several years now, but they only bring them in after over a year - or two, or longer. So, I can't remember their toggle setups.

If they are set up in a similar way. I'm just all wet.

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dpreguy

Mark and all:
I was wrong about the single side release. The only Aviator I saw was 4 + yrs ago when it was packed at PIA.

I can't remember if the Para-Phernalia and Butlers are set up the same way?



I can't speak about Butlers with ram-airs. Para-Phernalia ram-air risers are set up the same as sport rig reserve risers. They have to be, to accept standard configuration sport reserves. I had a Raven-II in my Softie for a number of years, and currently see a PDR-218 in a Softie a couple times a year. Both rigs are/were worn only by experienced jumpers.

Mark

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Quote

I'm with Lee about the C-9 canopy. LSI( who I work for) manufactures and sells a complete BA-22 system and after packing some for a customer they are the proverbial brick shit house in construction and the designer definitely was ahead of his time.



The BA-22 is a beautiful system, both ahead of its time and behind its time. Packing one will definitely be an exercise in handtacking.
=========Shaun ==========


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RiggerLee

.... Only it packs two and a half times as bulky. ...

Lee



.................................................................................

Not sure where you got that number.
P-124A 280 packs about the same size as a 280 square foot ram air reserve, roughly the same volume as a 26' Lopo round reserve.

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I was simply referring to the fact that for it's surface area it has a bottom skin, a top skin, and all the fucking ribs and seams. Approximately two and a half times the fabric for the same foot print.

Lee
Lee
lee@velocitysportswear.com
www.velocitysportswear.com

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Both Butler and Para-Phernalia use conventional reserve toggles when they install square canopies in PEPs.

The only unusual thing is when Butler installs squares in seat-type PEPs, then he extends the lower steering lines ... so that the tail is the same relative height (to the A-lines) as it would be when packed into a back-type container.

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It would be interesting to fly some thing like that. Riser length and the distance down to the CG affects the dynamic pitching characteristics of the canopy. It's noticeable on small high performance canopies. I'm not sure how much you'd see it on a large lightly loaded docile canopy like that. For example we don't notice it on the rocket but the motor speeds are not high enough to really give any type of dynamic flare.

Lee
Lee
lee@velocitysportswear.com
www.velocitysportswear.com

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Haven't had time to set down at a computer to answer this thread till now. Those that know me know I have strong opinions.:)

For history I have two C-9 jumps in 1978, 6 or 7 35' T-10 jumps in 1980, around 300 Competition PC jumps in the early to mid 80's, one Phantom 24 landing, two lopo landings (one Crossbow and the other I don't remember), and one Phantom 28' landing in 2005 (hit the peas from 1/2 mile out and 5000' exitB|, throwing T-10 students for years taught me how to spot). I pack mostly PEP's including Butler HX and LoPo canopies, Softies with various canopies, a couple of Nationals with Phantom Aerostars, lots of Strongs with various Strong Lopo's (mostly midlite, won't pack a lite) and Strongs with C-9's.

For the most part I won't pack any rig without a diaper. I've never seen the quarter bag Lee talks about, not sure why. I do have a couple of Strong Squadron seats with C-9's that I pack for good customers although I'm trying to talk them out of them.

I don't pack old military rigs without diapers or quarter bags because I believe there are more reliable, from an opening standpoint, choices available. I don't see a reason to put someone on a 12 lb C-9 that may invert when there are more reliable choices available for their last chance to live.

I recently was given two Strong seats to pack. They were 2001 Squadron seats with 1953 C-9's in them. Smelly, stained, with colors run. They were last packed in 2006. These canopies are over 60 years old. They are closer in years to the date of the first intentional PEP freefall jump in 1919 than today. They might be airworthy but would you use a 60 year old spool of thread to sew a new canopy? If not why pack one sewn with 60 year old thread? Yes, I know degradation is supposed to be low but I can't test every inch.

As to new C-9's. Butler doesn't have a source anymore. I called three weeks ago and they couldn't supply them. Strong has DOM 2000 surplus canopies that they list for $1500. Butler also no longer will sell their diaper for C-9's. I have one new old stock on hand.

I have two Butler seats with C-9's I service. Can't for the life of me figure out why they sold the guy C-9's when they had their canopies available. Neither did Roberto when I told him. The guy ordering them was flying a war bird and for some reason the sales guy at that time on the phone recommended the C-9.

I don't believe any of my pilots will be able to get out of their aircraft going fast enough to need the strength of a C-9. For the big guys I recommend Butler LoPo's with sliders. For the normal size guys I usually sell them FFE Preserve's or Strong Lopo's.

I have no experience with Avaitor's other than watching video. But I don't see any reason to recommend them over modern rounds for non skydivers. For skydivers I recommend Softies with normal ram air reserves.

In one case I was selling new parachutes to a 70 plus year old wealthy war bird pilot flying a Hell Cat. He in theory might have needed a C-9. But could he get out going fast enough to need it AND with an extra 6 lbs hanging on his butt? I sold him Preserve I's. Suspended weight was not an issue.

I have recently realized I may have been wrong on one issue. Rate of descent of a C-9. I remember them crashing into the ground when I weighed 170. I could stand up the 35' T-10 some of the time at 170lb. Manley's table on his website only has three canopies descending SLOWER than a C-9 with everything else faster. Is this right? I wouldn't have thought the 80-120 cfm fabric, oscillating C-9 would have been that slow based on my experience with the T-10's.

Anyway, I pack a couple of non diapered C-9's only because they are very good warbird customers. And on my advice they don't use them routinely, only for their passenger seats.:) The ones I pack are 2000 or newer. And I don't recommend them to anyone. While military rigs have saved 10's of thousands of lives there are just better choices available to my customers. I haven't packed (for use) a military seat or Navy back in 20 years. And don't see the need for ram airs on non skydiving pilots.

I used to pack bailout rigs for two guys with L-39 jets with decommissioned ejection seats. These guys I had C-9's on. But they still likely wouldn't manage to use them at speeds where they needed them. But maybe.
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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Awesome. I was hoping you would comment. Thanks.

I am in particular agreement with this..

councilman24

For the most part I won't pack any rig without a diaper.


I don't believe any of my pilots will be able to get out of their aircraft going fast enough to need the strength of a C-9. For the big guys I recommend Butler LoPo's with sliders. For the normal size guys I usually sell them FFE Preserve's or Strong Lopo's.



In discussions with Dan T at Paraphernalia, he doesn't believe anyone would be able to get out of a crippled aircraft above 250kts.

The deceleration chart shows that it takes about 1.8 seconds to slow from 300 to 150 kts, it should take a pilot that long to find the ripcord.

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JerryBaumchen


Well if someone wants to talk about the Virgin Galactic SpaceShip Two crash and "bailout", then I've been playing around with reading the NTSB reports and commenting on the bailout scenario and parachute system, over in a resurrected Bonfire thread where the accident was once discussed:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4746646#4746646

Then we're talking about the Butler HX-500/24 and the Cypres 2 Aircrew AAD with activation lanyard.

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>That canopy is a Butler HX series and was packed by Judy Celaya

Wow. Now how cool is that...

Judy and Bob Celaya are two of the best peeps out there.

Peter Siebold surviving that experience - being blown out of a rocket ship - is one of the most incredible stories ever. I've been following this one closely.

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... I pack mostly PEP's ..., lots of Strongs with various Strong Lopo's (mostly midlite, won't pack a lite) ....

..................................................................................

Why do you dislike Strong Lopo-Lites?
How would you compare the various generations of Strong Lopos, Lopo-Lites and the current-production Mid-Lite?

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Haven't heard of a parachute company called LSI that manufactures pilot emergency parachutes. A "BA 22".

More details about the company? They make the canopies and the harness/containers too? Is LSI an American based company or European?

More info?

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dpreguy

Haven't heard of a parachute company called LSI that manufactures pilot emergency parachutes. A "BA 22".

More details about the company? They make the canopies and the harness/containers too? Is LSI an American based company or European?

More info?



LSI = Life Support International

http://www.lifesupportintl.com/about/about-lsi/

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