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The questions you ask would be answered differently depending on the situation and your altitude.I personally would choose to go low over a collision.
I currently suck at tracking and barrel rolls.Until I develop these skills I only jump with experienced people that are aware of my abillities(or lack of)As I grow and learn my opinions may change.This is where I'm at now.And this is the skill I'm currently working on.Or will be when the weather breaks.
DougH 270
QuoteLike I said before, I would think you would have an awareness of where those below you were during your track.The BR is just to check the surroundings above you.
You loose a crucial moment of awarness while performing your barrel roll. If some one pulls below you then you barely have a split second to react. You just lost any chance if this occurs while you barrel rolling.
Edit: could you please give us the courtesy of filling out your jumping profile.
=P
A very experienced jumper I know and trust taught me this.And this is the method that is right for me.There may be situations when not to BR.But I will still work on this skill.
DougH 270
I will bring up one more thing to consider, and then I will let it be. After all there are some people in this thread that I respect as some of the most knowledgeable skydivers out there, so my opinion pales in comparison.
Canopy collisions can be just as dangerous as freefall collisions.
You said that you lack tracking ability and that it is something you need to work on. Every sky dive you need to track as hard as you can. Not just for your safety but for every one else on the jump. You aren't giving the best track that you can give if you already track sub par, and you are adding something like a barrel roll.
I know I have 100's of jumps to go on my track as well. That is why I put all of my effort in to my track and don't add anything fancy in there.
=P
kallend 1,623
Quote
A very experienced jumper I know and trust taught me this.And this is the method that is right for me.
Did he also teach you "the 45 degree rule"?
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
kallend 1,623
QuoteI'm not sure what you mean. The only 45 degree rule I know is on exit instead of counting seconds?
That's the one. Just curious.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
billvon 2,400
>someone who is not paying attention to what is going on below them.
Yes. But it makes YOU less likely to see someone below you, and adds erratic behavior to boot.
Let's take another example. You're under canopy, on final. You are looking all around, and believe you are clear of all possible traffic. But you cannot, of course, see above you; your canopy is in the way. What is the best course of action?
1) Keep your eyes open, looking all around and below you, and land straight in
2) Yank aggressively on the toggles to swing your canopy back and forth, allowing you to see above your canopy momentarily
If you chose 1) then you are hoping that whoever is above you is paying attention. You count on their not running into you just as the person below you counts on you not running into _him._ If you chose 2), you are looking away from your landing (which is where you will be in a few seconds) and making yourself damn hard to predict as well. Even though you might be able to see above you, you're making the pattern less safe, and might get a lecture from the S+TA about straight-in finals.
Breakoff is similar. You are relying on the guy above you to see you. You can look left and right, but there will probably be a blind spot above and behind you. Similarly, you are relying on the guy _below_ you to track predictably, wave off and deploy as per the breakoff plan. If you stop follwing the plan, you are making things harder to predict for the guy above you and taking your eyes off the guy beneath you.
D22369 0
so.... as your clearing your airspace over your shoulders by looking left and right, what would you say to the person you didnt see and just slammed into?..... same thing... you took your eyes off the direction your going......
your comparing apples and oranges when both are apples.... if a person can successfully do *at the end of thier track* a barrel roll prior to the wave off and not lose stability... whats the problem? it takes me the same- if not less time than looking over both shoulders with a larger field of view.
EDIT to add: I have left a large way with a staggered altitude break off, and during my track realize I had caught a jumper from the outside whacker and he was much lower than I, I moved slightly over and as I passed him, watch him toss..... he never saw me even though i watched him look left and right.
Roy
I do see both sides of this.I think which ever you choose to do it could be wrong or right depending on the circumstances.
Flyer01 0
JohnMitchell 14
Quote
That's the one. Just curious.
JohnMitchell 14
QuoteIt befuddles me that new jumpers think that the sage advice from long time belly jumpers would be totally dismissed.
Welcome to DZ.com
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.
trigger 0
Didn't say it wasn't necessary for flat fliers,but as i have no real experience of flat flying with others i can't really comment.
What i would like to say is that if you lose sight of one or more of the jumpers on your big freefly 'zoo' dive it might be wise imo to check the airspace above you at break off and before you pitch.
This can be done by barrel rolling as you track.
trigger 0
>a track and then colliding with another jumper then whats wrong with it?
I've seen perhaps a dozen close calls, two collisions and one fatality from people not looking below them during breakoff. The way to solve this is to pay more attention to what is going on beneath you, not to look away during the most critical part of the breakoff.
***Were these close calls caused by the higher jumper barrel rolling? i suspect not,they just weren't paying attention.
On the other hand a well excuted barrel roll by the lower jumper[assuming these people were on the same dive]might have helped avoid a situation.
C00KIE 0
But isn't the point of this thread that you can't always rely on 'whoever is above you' paying attention?
Surely you are not saying, when in doubt - do nothing.
If your BR is erratic, you need to practice. It is just another skill after all.
IanHarrop 37
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2692646#2692646
And this one:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2692762#2692762
billvon 2,400
>suspect not,they just weren't paying attention.
Correct. And barrel rolling will certainly not cause the same people to pay MORE attention to the area they are responsible for, which is the area beneath them.
People are sometimes inattentive. The best solution to that is to remind them to _be_ attentive - not to add a maneuver that will distract them even further.
Quote***Why is barrel rolling so necessary for freeflying but not flat flying?
Didn't say it wasn't necessary for flat fliers,but as i have no real experience of flat flying with others i can't really comment.
What i would like to say is that if you lose sight of one or more of the jumpers on your big freefly 'zoo' dive it might be wise imo to check the airspace above you at break off and before you pitch.
This can be done by barrel rolling as you track.
We are long past the time anyone should be doing these "zoo" dives. Plan the dive, and dive the plan. If you can't then the skill level for the dive is not high enough. No matter the "zoo-y-ness", size, or complexity of the dive, everyone on the dive should know where to go on break off. If a smaller dive, all jumpers should be able to account for the position of all others prior to break off, and on larger dives there should be a break off plan discussed prior to boarding the A/C.
"Break at 5" is not good enough anymore.
Barrel Rolls while tracking waste valuable altitude and separation.
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.
Just curious, after 31 years of skydiving, what is your opinion on this?
Andy9o8 0
(BTW, I don't have 31 straight years jumping. I started in '75, jumped off & on until '88, then took off a long hiatus until '04 while we were raising kids. (Did a few jumps during the hiatus that I didn't tell my wife about until years later. ) Stayed active in the business end of the sport during my hiatus, doing legal work for gear shops, DZ's, jump plane owners, smaller meets and boogies, etc. Spent a fair amount of time at DZs. It kept me mentally up to date on what was going on in the sport even though I wasn't jumping regularly. Resumed jumping in '04. So it's about 16 years active jumping, but I've stayed pretty involved in the sport the whole 31 years. )
How much do you think a barrel roll is going to protect you? Does the added protect outweigh the protection you get from looking down?
Ok so you see some one above you, and you deviate your course. Are you going to barrel roll again? What if the other jumper saw you and already deviated his course, good chance you will track back under him.
Do you wait for the other person to pull...???
I try and protect myself by jumping with people that I know are reliable come break off time, and having a clear break off plan.
I am more worried that some one will track under me, than the chance that some one will get over top of me from my own group. I give a good healthy wave off too.
=P
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