Canopy Control Requirements

[Deleted 0]

I have a general question to throw out: What do you think about associations like the ECPA (Extreme Canopy Pilots Association) and what others are doing?
From what I understand, they are an association that will promote canopy control & safety. For example, they will have different levels of canopy control to be achieved by a student so if you are "licensed" to do hook turns then you can perform them at dropzones that may require a "hookturn license". They are going to be doing more than just licensing, but I think that is an interesting application of what may happen with canopy control licenses.
I think that this is a good thing...safer anyways, but I am sure that there are some people that think otherwise.
If anyone has any further information on the ECPA or what the USPA or any other association is planning please inform the group. There isnt a lot of information out there, so lets here it.
Thanks!

[Hellian 0]

I think you are in for a slightly rocky ride concerning replies about the hook turning.... personally (having jumped nothing smaller than a 250 ie only doing simple spirals) i cannot comment on hook turns... but as for basically making new students better canopy flyers.. has to be a good thing....
I would say that when people get newly qualified from AFF at maybe their small home DZ... where they have maybe only 2-3 canopie anywhere near them, it's gotta be almost dangerous for some of them to suddenly go somewhere like Eloy or Elinsore and jump where there are going to be many more (i would presume) ... so anything that makes this awesome sport safer has to be a good thing!
Ed

[SkySlut 0]

dammit! I keep forgetting to log in...This is my original post, so go ahead and flame me if you want for bringing this up or if I am way off base.
"I'll jump anything!"

[skreamer 1]

Ed
You're forgetting that a heck of a lot of people make their first jumps at those big DZs and students are VERY well catered for (outs you can land a Boeing in). Often they will have designated landing areas just for students (Skydance's barn for example). I got given a good tip for while under canopy : AAD (Altitude, Airspace, Dropzone)
Altitude - don't forget to keep checking your altimeter (it's not just for freefall you know...)
Airspace - keep looking all around to see who else is flying near you
Dropzone - always be aware of where the dropzone and your landing area is, and keep spotting for possible outs all the way down
Let's not get into the whole Hook-turn thing again. How a competent experienced canopy pilot lands is his/her prerogative (noticed how non-sexist this ng has made me my $0.02/£0.01 worth
/s

[craddock 0]

I watched a someone break their back in November at SDC. He had only jumped out of a 182 until that day and was not prepared for all the traffic even though he was warned about it and was confident that he was ready for it.
C

[SkySlut 0]

Some DZs dont allow hookturns...so if you are a hookturner and are licensed, then that DZ would probably let you hook it in-(if there were some sort of licensing program).
On the otherhand I think that it would hopefully curtail the increasing number of pilot error incidents in Parachutist. You wouldnt have "inexperienced" pilots doing things that they havent been taught or are ready for.
I realize that enforcing this may be difficult, organizing skydivers to do anything is like herding cats, but is it good for the sport in general???
"I'll jump anything!"

[SkySlut 0]

Hook Turns aside - even simple things like working the rear risers effectively to get back from a long spot, general awareness things that should be done (i.e. getting ready to do riser turn immediately upon opening to avoid any potential collisions), dealing with adverse conditions that may arise (winds, rotors, etc.). There are a lot of things that should be taught that a suprising number of jumpers dont know.
Some DZs dont have these conditions so they arent enforced, but when you do go to a DZ that has a couple of planes in the air at the same time and 200 foot trees surrounding the DZ and a hot runway in the middle...your home DZ that has a flat 1,000 open acres is not going to help you. So in that sense, I think this canopy control thing could be very beneficial.
"I'll jump anything!"

[Tee 0]

Quote

There are a lot of things that should be taught that a suprising number of jumpers dont know.

I couldn't agree more. I remember when I was off student status I still had a feeling that I didn't know hardly enough under canopy. My AFF program didn't teach flat turns, how to work the rear risers etc. and I believe those to be VERY important canopy skills which could even save your life someday. And if you don't have other experienced jumpers around that tell you those skills exist or do alot of reading on your own....how else will you know?? This program could be a great asset for students! As for the hook-turn part. For those of us that are already hooking it in and are confident in our skills should have no problem with getting a license to do it. For those that want to learn, should feel greatful that they will have the proper training.
Tee

[SkySlut 0]

Word.
After I started this thread, I thought better and started a new one under the Safety and Training thread. I thought that it would be more applicable there. Sorry about that.
"I'll jump anything!"

[Hellian 0]

HI skreamer.. i take your point but there are also a heckofvalot of small DZ's that ppl graduate from AFF then go somewhere big...
I intentionally "tried" to stay away from hookturns
but my general point was that the better everyone is under canopy, the better we all are safety wise Ed

[freaksister 0]

I have always been a canopy-control nut. I think it is sooooo important! I did static line so I got more canopy control instruction and less freefall instruction (that might have just been a fluke, though b/c of my JMs) anyway, I still did not feel comfortable under canopy. I wore a radio for about 23 jumps! haha I am more comfortable under canopy now, but I still watch my altimeter carefully and what other pilots are doing, in case the wind shifted and I can't see the windsock or something. Follow the leader! That's my motto! (unless he you know...dies or something.) Seriously though, I can't wait to take a canopy control course. I have the film Fly Like a Pro, but without being close to a DZ, without having a coach, it just isn't the same. I have played with my risers (damn they're hard to use! take so much effort!) and all that but there is much more to learn. I also need improvement on my accuracy. It isn't consistent. I don't land off DZ but I usually err on the side of too far from the peas than overshooting them. If you overshoot them too far, you'll hit a picnic table, maybe the parking lot...better to be out in BFE and safe. I came from a little DZ, with a C-182...I started going to a "big" DZ before I got my A license. I was nervous about all the canopies in the air at the same time, and ten people doing hook turns right in front of the beer line and the sign that says, "NO HOOK TURNS." So I just made it a point to keep my eyes open, and land a little further out if necessary. Now that I have been doing that for awhile, I can't seem to get closer so I can get the accuracy for my B or C license! It is like a rut, a habit I got into...for safety's sake! hehe
If the ECPA or whatever its called gives instruction on all levels of experience, then its a damn good thing in my opinion. Teaching people how to do front riser turns safely if they want to is much better than letting people go experiment on their own and kill themselves. I don't think a "license" to hook turn is feasible, however...skydivers will say, "We already have a license to skydive, a PRO rating, a this rating and a that rating...who wants another damn rating? I am rated to do "hook turns" ...woohoo!" Not.

[Albatross 0]

I totally understand the concern of those of you out there who are familiar with and competent at hook turning. The idea that someone will come in and regulate or force you to do some dumb course is understandable. However, the other side is also a valid concern. We all would like to see fewer or none of our friends get hurt or die from a hook turn made at the wrong time or under the wrong conditions. Would it be all that bad if people with say a B licence could challenge out of the training and get their licence based on demonstrated ability and knowledge, while new people (like myself) would have to learn their skills like we all learned to fly. Don't take away rights just try to insure a minimum level of currency and competency.
Blue Skys and Safe landings
Albatross

[mattb 0]

More regulation and licensing good? No. Never.

[Patkat 0]

I gotta agree with Mattb on this one: we as participants in a rather pricey sport need more ratings like we need more clouds. I'm all for more canopy training, and the dissemination of standard (to some extent) canopy control principles, and if there is an association willing to help provide this training, great. I'd even pay for a course. But, I've already paid for a license to skydive, and yearly dues to an organization to represent me to our government. Why should I pay another group for another license/rating to do what others can do for free? The big problem with a "hook turn license" for me is that, like the PRO rating, it can't ascertain one vital factor of your ability to safely execute a potentially risky act: whether you are a jerk prone to hot-dogging in front of an audience or not.
Oh. Did I go off there? I don't mean to offend any ECPA people or PRO rating holders. What irks me about this is that we as skydivers are being asked to pay for ratings which I think are unnecessary and not all that vital. With the PRO thing I referred to - why is there a rating instead of a requirement to have the necessary jumps logged? so the USPA can collect another license fee from potential demo jumpers. And guess what? Beer servers are still being tackled from above.
Note: I don't know whether the jumper in that incident was PRO-rated or not, or whether it would have made a difference or not in his case.
OK, I'm done now.

[sigsby 0]

I've heard it mentioned that canopy control skills should be tougher to accieve your A license. So, instead of creating a new organizion with a new set of licenses then perhaps we should take a look at the current requirements.
Get up, Fall down, No problem!
sigsby

[SkySlut 0]

I dont think that the ECPA would actually do the licensing. I think that it will be more like Olav's Dolphin Rating for his FreeFly school. The USPA doesnt care if you have the rating (as their policies stand), it would be a "yeah, i know what i am doing" sort of rating. Although, I really do think that canopy control should be further developed within the USPA curriculum in general. The ECPA would put on swooping contests & have classes & whatnot. I really dont think that they are going to license people.
"I'll jump anything!"

[sigsby 0]

Hook turns are not allowed at my home DZ. I was jumping at another DZ last year and I couldn't believe how fast they would swoop in. A lot of the skydivers there did demo jumps all the time and had the ratings to go along. I'm not ready for all of that just yet. CREW looks like fun though.
Get up, Fall down, No problem!
sigsby

[Cacophony 0]

It sounds like a good thing to me© I would do it© Unfortunately my DZ isn't a really really big one© But there are a few people that I can turn to for assistance in hook turns, and yes, I am starting slow© I think you should probably have a D license before taking such a course or even attempting any fast landings© I know I didn't wait that long© I had a couple of close calls but nothing serious© Be careful people©
Safe landings,
Alex C-30872