Does stupidity burn brain cells?

[DZBone 0]

Quote

Honestly, it's a little insulting to assume that because this is (unless I hear a good argument otherwise) my choice in handling the situation, that I haven't thought about it.

Pammi, I hope you aren't referring to what I posted on the other thread about you having your procedure, and others having theirs.
My point exactly is that what you have drilled, are comfortable with, and will execute quickly and correctly is way more important than the marginal differences between generally well-accepted techniques. It is because you have thought it through that it is right for you. If later you decide you want to change, or your gear changes, you will reprogram your "instinctive" reaction, then that will be the "right" one.
It's all good. Just make it back, and always learn.
Carl

[Grogs 0]

Personally, I can't see any real advantage to pulling the cutaway in a lost deployment handle situation. I've never had one, and hope I never do, but I'd like to think my thought processes would be something along the lines of 'I need to get something over my head right now!' and that means pull the reserve immediately. But, if I happen to spaz out and grab the cutaway instinctively, no biggie. Cut and then pull the reserve. I think the odds of an entanglement are much less likely than the odds I'll take too long trying to figure out why I'm holding the cutaway and not the reserve and trying to sort it out.

[Pammi 0]

Absolutely Carl. Whatever we do, just get it done!
You guys have all brought up good points, and it's something more to think about. Thank you all for your ideas and thoughts! As for myself, I think I'll continue to research all of this a little further and talk to my coach this weekend. He's a very heads-up, safety oriented guy who I'm sure can go over some things and clear them up for me. First and foremost, I just want to make sure that I have these decisions made *before* I get in the air ... what my intentions are. That's the most important thing, IMHO.
Thanks again guys, and you especially Diver for bringing all of this up, including exactly why they make us tuck in our shirts when doing student jumps (without jumpsuits!)
BTW guys...just another thought. At our DZ, when we are jumping in just our regular clothing (if you're going thru IAD to just 3000-5000, you don't have to wear a suit), we weren't allowed to wear red shirts. Anyone know why? We also were made to duct tape down our jeans/shorts pockets. Can anyone say why they'd do those two things?
Pammi
Our webpage

[PhillyKev 0]

No red shirts is probably so that the red cutaway pillow doesn't blend in so you can't find it.
Only reason I could think for the pockets is so your change doesn't fall out and smack someone below in the head...but that's just a really lame guess.

[DZBone 0]

Quote

we weren't allowed to wear red shirts

To avoid being chased by a bull if you landed off?

[SpeedRacer 1]

Gee, I wonder why at my dropzone, they make all the first jump students wear the BROWN jumpsuit??
HMMMMMMMMM!
Speed Racer
"De plaene!! De plaene!!"

[Pammi 0]

Quote

To avoid being chased by a bull if you landed off?

ROFL! Jackass :) lol
Our webpage

[Michele 1]

I have been taught that if I can't get to my main cord, or if I tug and it doesn't come out, then I am to look and see if there's anything over my head. If nothing is there, then I pull silver. If there's something (pilot chute, or something) there, I pull red, arch, THEN silver. And there is no time to second guess - just do as I have been taught. Of course, I am still pulling at about 5k, so I have more time to look.
As to 1800' emergency out, I am to leave the plane WITH my hand on silver, and pull immediately out of the plane. "Just run out of the door with my hands on silver?" "Yep, get the hell out, and get something over your head immediately - and then look for a good spot to land. Forget the DZ".
This is such a great discussion! Thanks everyone!
Ciel bleu -
Michele

[GeekStreak 0]

Quote

We also were made to duct tape down our jeans/shorts pockets.

At my DZ they make us empty our pockets before gearing up... anything sharp and anything we wish to keep .
1111,
GeekStreak

[Merrick 0]

Quote

"We also were made to duct tape down our jeans/shorts pockets."

We? Oh no sweetheart... YOU!! He makes all the ladies tape up the pockets on their jeans or jean shorts. He also makes everyone take everything out of their pockets so I don't think that's it. I still haven't caught the reasoning behind it myself, but whatever it is our DZO says that it's only necessary on the ladies because of the way their pants hang off their hips! I'm sure Kris will be able to answer this for us... since he's the grandmaster JM pimp in training under Mike & Tony's tutelage! (Gawd, did I just use that word!?)
"If words were wisdom, I'd be talkin' even more.."

[Pammi 0]

The 'no red shirt' rule is because that's the color of the cutaway handles and the taping up the pocket is just a precaution because some of them that are kinda loose so that you don't somehow get your hand or handle snagged in one if you have to cut-away (as you're pulling them downward). At least that was what I was told :)
Our webpage

[Merrick 0]

Quote

"The 'no red shirt' rule is because that's the color of the cutaway handles and the taping up the pocket is just...blah...blah...blah.."

ROFL - stop asking questions you already know the answer to!
"If words were wisdom, I'd be talkin' even more.."
Edited by Merrick on 6/28/01 10:21 AM.

[Pammi 0]

Well duh! I know the answer to everything! LOL! Sheesh.
Our webpage

[mouth 0]

Thanks guys, this has been an enlightening discussion. We have all evaluated our procedures and the reasoning behind them and hopefully we will all be safer skydivers because of it.
You all are wonderful!!!
BTW....nothing stupid here except the question not asked.

[Aviatrr 0]

Quote

If there is no harm in cutting away first, why not do that automatically as students are taught? There is a greater possibility of making a mistake and not cutting away first when you should've, it would seem, then an incident from cutting away when you should NOT have. Right? As an example...say in the situation of Diver's...he pulls the reserve and somehow the shirt gets loose and the pilot chute is partially pulled out because of the previous struggles with it, then it DOES come out during the deployment of the reserve, or perhaps just after. I'm just throwing stuff out here, keep in mind, because perhaps this isn't possible at all. But for the sake of argument, this happens...wouldn't it be better if you'd cutaway already so when it deploys it will just fall downward rather then deploy possibly into your reserve, or at least cause two out?

When it comes to malfunctions, I am paranoid.. I admit it freely.. That's why I always pack my own canopy.. As for cutting away with nothing out - I see that as a potential problem.. Not only is there the chance of a loose riser entangling with something, but imagine this..
You can't find your main handle.. You try 2 or 3 times(depending on what your procedure is), and then go for silver.. Uh oh, reserve is bag-locked.. Unlikely? Yes.. Impossible? No way.. If you already cutaway your main(even though it's still in the container), you're dead.. If you didn't, you still have one more chance.. Find that main handle and get it out..
How about this one.. I reach back to pull at 3k, give it 2 tries, and can't find my hackey.. I go silver.. Canopy out by 2k.. But it's spinning wildly, and I have no control of it.. I still have a chance.. First, quickly locate my main handle if I can.. Grab a couple hook knives(I always carry at least two), and slice those reserve risers.. Deploy main.. Again, is it likely? Nope.. Possible? As you know, anything is..
You decide to give freeflying a try.. You nail a sit your first time out.. You think to yourself..."This is awesome.. I can't believe I'm doing this.. Hmm, getting close to pull time".. You go to your belly, to find that you can now see arms and legs on the people on the ground(means your around about 500-800ft).. Do you want to waste the time going through your "look, grab, pull right, pull left" - or whichever you use? Not me.. Grab reserve pillow, pull..
I could go on with even more scenarios....but I think you get my point.. Why cause unnecessary problems? In my opinion, it's not a tough call.. Is there ANYTHING out? If so, cutaway then pull reserve.. If not, go straight to reserve..

Quote

Situation: you are sitting in the plane on the way up. Everyone is happy to finally be free of the constraints of the Earth if for just a few moments. You pass through 1800 feet and life is good. The plane begins to sputter, rocking wildly. The pilot yells, "GET OUT!" What would you pull and why?

If I get out at or above 1500, I'm going for my main.. My main will open in 300ft on a hop'n'pop.. If I'm below 1500, I'm going for my reserve.. My fear is not that my main will mal and not have sufficient altitude to cutaway and deploy my reserve, it's that I'm getting into Cypres territory.. A low exit, over unsuitable terrain, and two out....not a combination I want to deal with..
I feel that I am much better off landing my main than my reserve in a dicey situation.. I don't have a single jump on my current reserve, but have plenty on my main..
Mike

[mouth 0]

I've seen my old reserve and I landed it just fine on jump #38. My new reserve is larger than a canopy I flew for 25 jumps so I feel I can land it too. My problem with pulling main at 1800 is my main can take it's sweet time taking a deep breath and I really don't want to be that low hoping it will inflate.
I am pulling silver anywhere below 2000.

[Pammi 0]

Very good points Aviatrr! I'm actually reconsidering my previous 'always cutaway first' thoughts...
Our webpage

[SpeedRacer 1]

Hmm never thought/heard of this. Cutting away a reserve to go for a main!?! Has that ever happened???
Speed Racer
"De plaene!! De plaene!!"

[jfields 0]

Hmm. I don't know if I'd physically cut a reserve away like that. To have gone for my reserve instead of my main in the first place, I'd have to be getting out at really low altitude. If I didn't have a good reserve, I might just keep trying on the main and dump it into whatever there was of my reserve. At that point, time would be crucial. No time for the hook knife (IMHO). I'd want the most possible fabric over my head, entangled or not. I could do a PLF instead of flairing. Better a big ball of junk than nothing at all.
Justin
"If it can't kill you, it isn't worth doing."

[Kris 0]

Hmmm, here's my answer:
If I have thrown my PC then I cutaway and then use my reserve. If I have nothing out then I go straight for silver.
As for getting out of the airplane at 1800' then I would use my main. Anything under 1500 and it's straight for the reserve. If the main snivels below 1000' then I'm not waiting, I'm chopping it and going for the reserve.
Kris

[Aviatrr 0]

Quote

Hmm never thought/heard of this. Cutting away a reserve to go for a main!?! Has that ever happened???

I have never heard of it happening after intentionally deploying a reserve - but it has happened.. On a high altitude jump(24k I think), a guy had his reserve deploy right out the door.. No O2 bottle.. Time of Usefule Consciousness(TUC) is pretty damn low for most people at that altitude.. He cut his reserve risers, freefall to 2-3k, and deployed his main.. It happened somewhere in Northern California, if I remember correctly..
Mike

[Aviatrr 0]

Quote

Hmm. I don't know if I'd physically cut a reserve away like that. To have gone for my reserve instead of my main in the first place, I'd have to be getting out at really low altitude. If I didn't have a good reserve, I might just keep trying on the main and dump it into whatever there was of my reserve. At that point, time would be crucial. No time for the hook knife (IMHO). I'd want the most possible fabric over my head, entangled or not. I could do a PLF instead of flairing. Better a big ball of junk than nothing at all.

It would all depend on the situation.. I will do whatever I think gives me the highest chance of survival, based on the working time I have and what I have to work with..
Just because you go for your reserve without cutting away a main doesn't mean you are low.. You could have tried for your main handle a few times, not found it, and pulled silver at 2.5k. It goes into a wild spinner - you see it has a step-through.. Do you have a chance of fixing it? No.. If it's not controllable, you throw out your main in addition to reserve, you could have an entanglement or a spinning downplane.. Of course - if that's all you have time to do - do it! Whatever will give you the highest chance of survival is the best course of action..
Mike