You guys all rock!

[diver123 0]

Okay, if you hadn't already done so, please check out the "what the hell?" post...
A quick note to the people who don't think this issue was appropriate here: This was not intended to provoke a "bashing" session, merely thought and concern.
To all else: Just as I was brought down so far with the experience in Vegas, I'm lifted by the way you guys took this to heart. You see, it's this family attitude and support that will render us the power to continue on with our shared passion. Without this very attribute, we'll have nothing more than those ground-bound bunch that are numb to personal freedoms...
"pull high! It's lower than you think..."

[freeflir29 0]

Personally, I like to hear about bad DZ experiences. I dont want to waste my time and money going to a DZ that sucks. I certainly take single reviews with a grain of salt but when 2,3, or 4 people start saying the same things it all adds up. Just try to keep to the facts and be fair. I have bashed a certain DZ here but I also said that the people were cool and they have a very nice building and BRAND NEW Mirage rental gear. There were just some things I didnt like or agree with. So I Skydive somewhere else now. No big deal but customer satisfaction is the job of the business. Not the other way around!
"The cab driver said... he recognized my girly by the back of her head" -Beasty Boys
Clay

[Pammi 0]

I felt the same way yesterday Diver..and your post showing I wasn't the only one disgusted with some personalities in the business and the responses it drew really helped. Thank you. I guess it's too much to hope that everyone will be a great person simply because they skydive, even I am not that naive. However, for the most part, I've found skydivers to usually be more open then most, and that thread proved it.
Merrick told me yesterday when I was bummed that we started skydiving for US, and because it's what we love. We can't let a few bad experiences ruin this part of our lives that is wonderful overall.
And just a note, I also don't consider it bashing if you air your opinion on a subject or the facts of a situation that occurred. This shouldn't be a forum limited to only those 'rose colored moments', but one where we can share helpful hints, advice and simply news. In the end, it's each of our decisions to do with that information as we will. It's like saying that every time you argue with a spouse, it's verbal abuse. Um, no. I can argue with Merrick without being mean and hateful. It's healthy to see all views, sometimes from someone else's eyes.
Anyway, just my thoughts.
Blue ones guys.
A new page! Bi-Plane pics!

[parduhn 0]

"it's this family attitude and support"
I found a new dz because the one I was jumping at excluded me from their little cliche. It was a fine place, but when the jumping was over no one talked to me and I was sitting right there! So I pointed my car in a different direction and found a dz where people enjoyed meeting you and wanted to jump. It's definitely not all about the jumping or airplanes.

[Merrick 0]

Quote

"I can argue with Merrick without being mean and hateful. "

Ummm.... you can?? COOL!!! When's that going to start?
You know I love you baby!
http://skydivechick.tripod.com/wishlist.html
"If words were wisdom, I'd be talkin' even more.."

[Michele 1]

Hi, Randy
Just wanted you to know I did a little follow-up with the USPA this morning. Here is what I have discovered:
As I understand it, the issue with the USPA accreditation is that Michael Hawkes asked to be removed from the USPA list last fall, after becoming tired of having jumpers make the $50 (round trip) cab ride to jump at SDLV and be turned away (Note: I gathered that people were not very happy when they found out they couldn't jump). This instigated a request to have the listing removed. USPA accomodated him, and removed the listing. However, SDLV has remained an accredited dz, and can in fact advertise that on their website. There is nothing in the accreditation procedures that will allow the USPA to address the subject of SDLV and it's rejection of fun jumpers if licensed elsewhere than his dropzone.
However, as I pointed out to the gentleman, this causes considerable confusion when checking out the "away from area" dropzones via the web. As it stands, Mr. Hawkes can advertise the accreditation with USPA, and can also have it not listed on the USPA website. I voiced my my concern that Mr. Hawkes is using his website to attract jumpers (potential and licensed), which seems to defeat the stated purpose of his request to be removed from the USPA's website.
There have been several complaints to the USPA, and in my discussion with Eb (hi, Eb!), he directed me to Mr. Harry Leicher, the regional director. Mr. Leicher is the person to contact with the complaints, and with any suggestions as to how to handle this issue. There are no policies in place which will allow anyone to take action, and to have policies changed, it is up to the membership (us) to request that the Board of Directors take a change into consideration. The Board of Directors is aware of the issue, but it's hands are tied without membership instigation.
Mr. Leicher's e-mail: [email protected]
Mr. Leicher's telephone #: (310) 701-0854.
In regards to advertising, and "truth in advertising", there is a Nevada Bureau of Consumer Protection (deals mainly with fraud and Securities issues, but will address this issue, as well). Thier website is:
http://bcp.state.nv.us/
I am not sure that this is the direction "we" should take any of this, but I think that if there is enough interest, and enough concern over this, these are the proper avenues with which to address our concerns. I know I will be calling Mr. Leicher later this afternoon, and voicing my concerns.
And before anyone thinks I am bashing any dz, please understand I am not. I tend to like to get the accurate information, and then, if I personally feel that I should take steps to voice my considerations, I do so.
On a different note, the people at USPA are way cool, and do in fact know of, and visit, this site. The gentleman I talked to likes this website, and thinks it's a good place to visit (he even knew who I was from my stories!!! How cool was that!).
Anyway, the above information is FYI.
Ciels-
Michele
"What of the dreams that never die? Turn to your left at the end of the sky".
~e e cummings~

[pyke 0]

Quote

but it's hands are tied without membership instigation

I'll address this issue....I pay an annual fee to belong to a nationwide collective/organisation of like-minded individuals. I expect/hope that every other member of this organisation feels the same towards skydiving as I do...and wants to help PROMOTE this sport, both to the general public...and within the existing community.
Now...what I can gather from this SDLV situation is that he wants the benefits and the accredidation that come with paying dues to the USPA, but he doesn't want to share his toys with anyone else in the USPA.
I ask you all this...does this sound fair? Should we continue to provide the benefits of our collective voice and collective resources to an individual who refuses to reciprocate?
I, for one, am very outgoing with ANY of my belongings pertaining to skydiving...and pretty much the rest of my life. You want to borrow my rig for a jump? Go for it! You need some goggles...I got two sets! Wanna beer, but don't got money...here...enjoy mine with me. Wanna go up for a 2 way and just play...let's go - who cares how many jumps you have (thanks for that one Andy! Promise to keep it going)
But...if you don't want to allow me to do the same...then we have an understanding. I won't bother you and you don't bother me....just don't expect me to be outgoing anymore.
So, I guess the point to this is....should we voice our concerns to the USPA to disallow SDLV to be a member of our organisation...if he isn't going to open his doors to visiting jumpers OF OUR organisation? Be a business...make money...only do tandems for profit...don't allow jumpers to visit who haven't taken *your* AFF course....but don't get any benefits of the collective voice if you're not willing to put yours into it.
I HATE freeriders!!!! Economics (c'mon PT..help me out) tells us that it is beneficial to businesses to freeride for their own $$ gain, but if you can identify the freeriders...then you put an end to the problem. Yeah...it may have the potential to raise their costs in the short run...but in the long run...we ALL benefit! (we get another potential place to jump!) I think we have identified a freerider people!!!
[little rascal wavin' his hand over head to the group behind him]C'mon kids.....lets get 'em!!!![/little rascal wavin' his hand over head to the group behind him]
Kahurangi e Mahearangi,
Pyke
NZPF A - 2584
USPA C- ?????

[PhillyKev 0]

First off....I wasn't bothered by the thread or upset by it in anyway. I was just trying to give a little warning that bashing people publicly based on heresay is not a good thing to do.
Diver123's post wasn't doing that, that was a personal experience. I just didn't like a couple of the "I heard that..." stories. And I didn't mean that people shouldn't be permitted to post them, post whatever you want. Just wanted to point out that kind of thing could unfairly hurt an innocent person.
In regard to this particular dz though and the known facts, Pyke is 100% correct. Although I stated in the other thread that he has the right to have a "private club" dz that excludes anyone he wants, I want to restate my opinion.
If they, or any other facility is a member of the USPA, then their facility should be available for use by any member of the USPA with no restrictions beyond those they impose on the rest of the jumpers they allow at their dz. It should be in the bylaws that if they are excluding USPA members for other than groundings of individuals for misconduct, then their USPA membership should be revoked.
cielos azules y cerveza fría
-Kevin

[pyke 0]

Quote

Pyke is 100% correct

I AM??
Wait...what the hell did I say? [goes back to read his post]
Mark that one down in the books [Pyke gets something right(tick)]. Better go ring my Mum...she'll be so proud!!!
Kahurangi e Mahearangi,
Pyke
NZPF A - 2584
USPA C- ?????

[parduhn 0]

I vote to revoke the membership, seize the assets, burn the house...okay we'll just stick with revoking the membership for now, but watch yourself mister.

[DZBone 0]

I'm not sure I follow the line of reasoning here. This guy has a business, it is his, he should be able to run it any way he likes, within the law. Obviously the guy is a moron, but that's his right as an American!
Now, as far as USPA group membership requiring that he accept any comers who hold USPA cards, that may sound great, but think what might come of that. Right now, a dz can ban anyone, any time for any reason. Not many exercise this right, because most are not morons. They can exercise it, however, in cases other than for safety that you may appreciate. For example, if there is someone who is distruptive and ruining the vibe or community, wouldn't you appreciate a political banning in this case? You know that HH can ban any of us from his site at any time, remove postings, etc. Rather than being upset about this, we appreciate it because it maintains our community in the vision he has made it in, which we all like.
To take it a step further, what if being a USPA member meant that you had to jump with any other USPA member who asked, as long as you determined that it was safe to do so? How happy would you be about that? I mean, most of us would anyway, and be glad to, but what if we were required to?
I think we are much more powerful against this particular individual by voting with our dollars and our voices. Michele has taken a very proactive and sensible course of action by voicing her concerns directly to the dzo and the USPA. All of us now know what is going on out there and will tell everyone we can to avoid the place. We will be watchful for illegal practices, and be ready to raise our voices again should the need arise.
But let's not get too carried away by suggesting policies and practices that will limit the freedoms of other dropzones that operate in a more ethical and sensible way, just because one person is a moron.
/me steps off his soapbox

[diver123 0]

DZbone,
The underlying principal here is the one in question correct? He should be able to own and operate his business in any way he choses? But, should he be afforded the luxory of carrying an endorsement given by our governing authority while not abiding by the same un-written rules as everyone else? Sure, DZ's can remove people but as you said this is rairly enforced. And the few times that it is, it's for reasons that are beneficial to us as a collective community, not for the sole benefit of one man's profit... Now, I definitely don't think that we should push for a mandate for new policies or anything like that. On the contrary, I like the idea of being passive/aggressive! Take away the business! Deter people from spending their money, and even more important, their experiences on this DZ. It's enough that Mr. Hawkes knows that the skydiving community will not tolerate such unjustified discriminatory actions to it's own members. And by chosing to do so, we'll do everything in our power to voice these wrong doings to the public. Bravo Michele for doing it right. I have every intention of submitting, both a letter, and a phone call to the to groups you mentioned in your post.
"pull high! It's lower than you think..."

[Michele 1]

Hey, DZ

Quote

We will be watchful for illegal practices....

Honest, sincere question here. I am curious as to how you would suggest we do this if we are not allowed to jump there? And to whom should we raise our voices to? The DZ owner has not replied to my e-mail, and I doubt he will. The USPA has given me direction as to whom to take this to, and I will.

Quote

, and be ready to raise our voices again should the need arise

The only policy change I am suggesting is that if you are accredited, then you are *listed* as accredited with the USPA. Period. No changes, no ommitance, unless and until the accreditation is lost and/or revoked. If he doesn't like the amount of traffic this accreditation generates, and has a problem with fun jumpers who see his site as accredited, then that is his problem, right? Either change the dz's policies to allow us to jump there (not that I would, mind you), or to remove the advertisement and the prestige that comes with the accreditation.
It's a matter of eating his cake, and having it too. I don't think the USPA wants this situation, and there are avenues which we, as the membership, can walk to suggest changes. Whether or not those changes are made is up to the Board of Directors.
"What of the dreams that never die? Turn to your left at the end of the sky".
~e e cummings~

[DZBone 0]

Quote

I am curious as to how you would suggest we do this if we are not allowed to jump there?

Well, we found out about this, didn't we? diver123 had to take one for the team, but none of the rest of us plan to go out there. I assume(?) that the USPA visits are substantive, not recreational.

Quote

Either change the dz's policies to allow us to jump there (not that I would, mind you), or to remove the advertisement and the prestige that comes with the accreditation.

There is a useful middle ground here, which is that he should be able to advertise that he meets USPA guidelines on safety and practices relating to the tandem operation, without having to accept fun jumpers.
All I'm saying is let's not go too far. The self-regulated nature of the sport has a lot of advantages that we all enjoy. Too much regulation to control the occasional outlier will erode them.

[Michele 1]

Hey, Carl.

Quote

There is a useful middle ground here, which is that he should be able
to advertise that he meets USPA guidelines on safety and practices
relating to the tandem operation, without having to accept fun
jumpers.

I have not suggested that he be forced to allow fun jumpers. His business, his profit, his life.
I am suggesting simply that if he is accredited, then you are accredited on the USPA site, and not removed because it causes him too much trouble from those jumpers which protest being "discriminated" (oooohhhhh, the "D" word) against. If those jumpers show up and give him a hard time, that was his choice, right? If he doesn't like it, don't be accredited. There are several non-accredited dz's which do a good business, so the argument that it will affect his business negatively is thereby countered.
I just don't like the duplicity inherent in his actions.
ciels-
m
"What of the dreams that never die? Turn to your left at the end of the sky".
~e e cummings~

[fred 0]

Quote

Michelle wrote:
Blue ones guys.

I sure hope you're talking about skies, Michelle.

[Michele 1]

Hey, Fred

Quote

I sure hope you're talking about skies, Michelle.

Always blue skies, and for the guys' sake, only the skies!!!
ciels-
M
"What of the dreams that never die? Turn to your left at the end of the sky".
~e e cummings~