Spectre 210 vs PD190

[PixieUK 0]

I need to discuss this more with the instructors at the dz but was curious about general opinions.

I went to a new DZ today and as I don't have my own kit, I need to hire it. Up until now I have only jumped student kit, mainly Navigators and have downsized to a 220. Last jump a couple of weeks ago was on a Nav 240.

I explained my jump history (A licence last year, 39 jumps total, current including hop 'n' pops and winter jumping) and that I was nervous about jumping at the new DZ as it was only the second new place I've ever been and on Google maps, I couldn't see any distinguishing features to point me to the correct green field, lol. The CCI suggested I rent a 210 canopy as the next size up available was a 260 and the one below that was a 190. Since I only weigh about 145lbs, the wing loading of a 190 wasn't an issue but I didn't want to downsize so far, especially as I haven't jumped a 220 since early Feb.

So I agreed with the 210. What they didn't tell me (until afterwards!) was that the Spectre 210 is a 7 cell canopy and that doing my CATTS checks (ie including 3 x full flare practices on opening) could actually have stalled the canopy. I also descended a lot more rapidly than I was expecting, considering my previous jumps on Navigators. During my checks, I found it a lot harder to do a full flare than I'm used to (and I have significant upper body strength, can do chin ups etc), and the turns were WAY more aggressive than I'm used to. I ended up landing a bit of a distance away from the spot to avoid everyone else because I wasn't entirely sure how the damn thing was going to react to my inputs close to the ground (I was doing flat trim turns on my final approach and only let up the toggles for final drive and flare). I ended up flaring a little high so did a 2 stage flare and landed on my feet without any problems.

On discussion with instructors when I got back, they told me more about the Spectre, and then told me that the alternative would be a 9 cell PD190. I was only able to go on one lift today (v. small dz that mainly caters for tandems) and that was the last load so everyone was packing up and didn't have a huge amount of time to chat. I'll be back next weekend and will have more in-depth discussions before jumping again, but wondered what people's thoughts were on taking the PD190 instead of the Spectre 210. I coped with it despite the unexpected reactions, but wouldn't say I felt overly comfortable with it. Would the PD be more like the Navigators to handle or would that be downsizing too fast?

Anything else I should be considering? We had quite brisk winds today and my landing directly into wind was a LOT faster than I'm used to under those conditions. I never did a downwind leg, as soon as I turned crosswind, the canopy took off so I turned back as I was losing altitude much faster than I'm used to as well. I'm assuming that will still be the case on the 9 cell but that the turns and flares won't feel quite so drastic. I definitely wouldn't jump the Spectre in very light - no wind conditions until I was a lot more confident in handling it.

Thanks

A mind once stretched by a new idea never regains its original dimensions - Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr

[roostnureye 2]

the PD190 canopy is f111 and will have a much greater porosity than a zeroP fabric (spectre)

you will have a better flare on the spectre.

i personally would choose the spectre any day of the week over an old PD. i have a few jumps on a pd190 and my ankles told me they didnt care for the flare or landings.

i think you should definatly consult your instructors, i bet they will keep you on the spectre.

dont downsize until you are comfortable, and dont be in a rush to downsize.

Flock University FWC / ZFlock
B.A.S.E. 1580
Aussie BASE 121

[sundevil777 93]

Quote

I was doing flat trim turns on my final approach and only let up the toggles for final drive and flare

In general that is a bad idea at your level of experience. It can easily result in the timing of the "final drive" vs when you need to flare being wrong, resulting in you getting hurt. Talk to your instructors about the details of this, as you may have been giving plenty of time/altitude for the "final drive".

The spectre should be a better canopy, no need to debate that at all.

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[monkycndo 0]

Not sure if the Spectre was in trim or not, but unless you have gorilla length arms, a small light weight person under a 210 will have a difficult time stalling the Spectre.

This appears to be a case of down sizing and you got a surprise about how a non-student canopy responds. It is faster, turns quicker and has a totally different flare. This is a good wake up call to discuss canopy types and their flight characteristics prior to jumping the canopy. Glad you landed ok.

I agree that the PD 190 would not be a good idea for you now.

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[Doug_Davis 0]

sundevil777

Quote

I was doing flat trim turns on my final approach and only let up the toggles for final drive and flare

In general that is a bad idea at your level of experience. It can easily result in the timing of the "final drive" vs when you need to flare being wrong, resulting in you getting hurt. Talk to your instructors about the details of this, as you may have been giving plenty of time/altitude for the "final drive".

The spectre should be a better canopy, no need to debate that at all.

I was wondering the same. Why is she doing turns on final leg of her landing pattern, in a non-emergency situation?

[Quagmirian 40]

I have an exit weight of 160 lbs and I have a really hard job stalling a Spectre 210. I have jumped a Spectre and a PD 9 cell of the same size and would take the Spectre any day. The different handling characteristics you are noticing are completely normal. The Spectre can sometimes do with a bit of a stab at the bottom end of the flare, it won't flare like a nine cell.

Use this experience to learn more about you gear, especially while you're still renting. Make sure you're familiar with handle locations etc when jumping a new rig.

[riggerrob 558]

"... Spectre 210 ... and that doing my CATTS checks (ie including 3 x full flare practices on opening) could actually have stalled the canopy. ...

.................................................................................

And so you should.
At your experience level, you should practice stalls shortly after every opening. Look around to ensure that you are well clear of other canopies, then practice turns, flares, etc. above 2,000 feet.

Once you have figured out where the canopy stalls, raise your hands 4 inches and tap them against your hips. The tap will help you to remember where to quit flaring when you are close to the ground.

... plus the usual caveat about planning your landing pattern, etc. with a local instructor ....

[PixieUK 0]

Thanks for the responses so far - it sounds like maybe I need to pull higher to have a bit more time to 'play' and start getting used to a different type of canopy.

Just to clarify for the person who queried my turns on final - they were trim turns, minor adjustments of a few degrees just to keep the canopy flying directly into wind. I have been taught to 'fly my canopy all the way to the ground' as I did have one incident early on where I stopped trimming (due to the fixation of "no low turns") and ended up with my canopy veering so far from 'nearly into wind' that I ended up with an almost downwind landing. Because the reactions of the Spectre were relatively aggressive compared with the Nav and I didn't want to risk a bad mistake, I was keeping the canopy flat for trimming, rather than keeping both hands high and only pulling on one control line at a time.

I have spent a lot of time working on my landings and opted to get my CH2 qualification before my FS1 so have worked with several different instructors on canopy handling techniques - I am in no rush to downsize. This is the first canopy I have flown that had significant penetration into wind under those conditions. Even under the Nav 220 I would have expected to be dropping almost vertically until the last couple of hundred feet.

A mind once stretched by a new idea never regains its original dimensions - Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr

[Hellis 0]

Yes always open higher with new canopies.


About the adjustments on final.
Try to learn how to control the canopy with legs/harness/weight shifts.
It will be hard with large canopies but it can be done, and learn when toggle is needed compared to what can be done with harness.

When you know and can do turns with the harness you can use all the power of the canopy to flare and not for adjusting all the way down and get a half flare.
Try this up high first.
Notice the difference with brakes set and at full flight.

[doorgirl 0]

Welcome to the world of sport, not student, canopies. As you move into platforms that people can start hot dogging on, you need to make sure that canopy skills and techniques you learned on pure student platforms at low wing loading translate. Talk to your instructors about that!

The first jumps on sport platforms can get a little intimidating, my first on a Spectre 210 I ended up jumping a fence because I misjudged the penetration and was afraid to turn bc there had been traffic and I didn't want to turn low (chain of events, final consequence was just a hurt ego due to pure luck), my first on a Sabre 2 210 scared the snot out of me for no real reason at all, and it ended up on a Spectre 190 for a couple hundred jumps. I'm on a mom break now. I did jump a PD190 (maybe a 210?, it has been a while...) in a few places, including a higher altitude DZ. As it was older and I was loading it 1:1 or better, the flare left something to be desired but the flight was a lot more studentish flight than the Sabre2 or Spectre. I wouldn't rule out the PD190 in general, but it needs to be thought through just as carefully as any other canopy choice.

The biggest thing for you to do is really talk through the gear choices. You need to understand the canopy and also the gear it is in. Getting the right combo gets to be difficult, and as unfun as sitting out a day jumping is, it is a whole lot better than an incident or near incident. Just because you get away with something that had every right to go bad doesn't mean you made a good call. (like jumping too big gear that has you peeking out from between the lift webs, not understanding the flight characteristics of a new canopy and choosing the likely path of injury over turning into someone else, etc - these are all personal experience).

Basically, you need to talk with your canopy instructors now more than ever about what gear and combos are options for you now and in a couple steps down your progression and why. This will help you better understand the gear differences and their thought process. Buy them a beer or a meal and pick their brain. You should be able to find a gear nerd who gets the larger, tamer end of the sporty canopies and their relationship to student canopies and talk with them with or without an instructor who knows your flight, depending on how much overlap there is. A couple hundred dollars over time feeding them and learning from them is money well spent, even if you don't see that ad a way to avoid a medical copayment!

This understanding should also help you know if you can reasonably expect to find rental gear that works for you or if transitional gear purchase is a better option. I got a a Dolphin with a Raven reserve that fit me and worked through borrowed/rented canopies until I got where I wanted to be and bought new gear. I sold it for pretty much what I paid for it, and it enabled some nomadic jumping with lower jump numbers than I otherwise could have accomplished. YMMV, but a good understanding of your gear horizon both now and in the near future has tons of benefits.

[Doug_Davis 0]

PixieUK

Thanks for the responses so far - it sounds like maybe I need to pull higher to have a bit more time to 'play' and start getting used to a different type of canopy.

Just to clarify for the person who queried my turns on final - they were trim turns, minor adjustments of a few degrees just to keep the canopy flying directly into wind. I have been taught to 'fly my canopy all the way to the ground' as I did have one incident early on where I stopped trimming (due to the fixation of "no low turns") and ended up with my canopy veering so far from 'nearly into wind' that I ended up with an almost downwind landing. Because the reactions of the Spectre were relatively aggressive compared with the Nav and I didn't want to risk a bad mistake, I was keeping the canopy flat for trimming, rather than keeping both hands high and only pulling on one control line at a time.

I have spent a lot of time working on my landings and opted to get my CH2 qualification before my FS1 so have worked with several different instructors on canopy handling techniques - I am in no rush to downsize. This is the first canopy I have flown that had significant penetration into wind under those conditions. Even under the Nav 220 I would have expected to be dropping almost vertically until the last couple of hundred feet.

Sounds to me like you are getting blown around so much on final due to how light your wing loading is. Ive only got 48 jumps, I weigh 190 and use a 190 canopy. But Im not an instructor, so Im just guessing.

My canopy piloting instructor has been Maxine Tate, on the UK's CP team. And I've been taught arms up on final, otherwise you arent going to get as much flare power (due to already engaging brakes) or you are consistently in a flight cycle. If you need to make a small adjustment on final (caveat: in a normal non-emergency situation), we were taught to use harness steering as it minimizes the flight cycle.