PalmettoTiger 1 #26 March 23, 2002 QuoteI think it was the most trustworthy, ohnest, loyal ,helpful, friendly, kind , obidient, thrifty and brave election there ever was..........You forgot courteous, cheerful, and reverent. Don't think honest was part of the 12 Points either, kinda ironic. PTigerI'm stepping through the doorAnd I'm floating in a most peculiar way Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LittleJumper 0 #27 March 23, 2002 I respect your opinion, but this is now a case with precedence, unless it's appealed. Meaning...other lawsuits will follow suit. If your dog kills a human, no matter what kind of dog...you will be charged with 2nd degree.What you "think" you cannot do ...you CAN if you "think" about it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LittleJumper 0 #28 March 23, 2002 Negligence is more of a "duty owed" standard. Wanton disregard...which is always tried in criminal courts...goes to the "depraved heart" element. Did they act in such a way that was so depraved as to not give a damn about another person's life. As opposed to negligence...the duty they owed? probably making sure they were on a leash? that's about it. Outside of that...they owed no other duty...according to law....but the "depraved heart"...watching to the dog kill her without so much as lifting a finger, there is criminal liability there.Anway...I'm out of here...no more law talk for me...gonna have some wine and enjoy the company of some good friends. Have a great evening!What you "think" you cannot do ...you CAN if you "think" about it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #30 March 23, 2002 Yeah Terri...just what we need more Laws so that the fuckin lawyers have something more to latch onto.....how about we first have some tort reform so idiot personal injury lawyers can't keep driving up our insurance rates due to stupid suits...we need to teach better dog ownership not regulate our dogs....I have owned several english Mastiffs..and a neopolitan mastiff....all of these dogs are over 200 pounds and all of them were great dogs and NOT dangerous...but if lawyers like yourself start initiating more Laws my dogs will be thought of as dangerous from there size alone....once they start taking my dogs and my guns...what are they gonna take next.....marcBSBD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyhawk 2 #31 March 23, 2002 ok what if you raise the dog vicouse some one breaks into your house and it kills them whos at fualt????Opinions are like a-holes everyone has one, the only one that does you any good is yours and all that comes out is shit Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lazerq3 0 #32 March 23, 2002 Quoteok what if you raise the dog vicouse some one breaks into your house and it kills them whos at fualt????I dont know what the law says but this is how I look at it. Its the same if you own a gun.. I know the law here is that if someone breaks into your house and your life is in threat or danger you have the right to shoot the burglar......KEY PHRASE...YOUR LIFE IS IN DANGER!!! I say the same with an animal...if you have a guard dog and someone breaks into your house and is a threat to your life then I see know problem with the dog......The problem however becomes when does the defender become the agressor....If you come at me to fight and I hit you hard enough to knock yuo out or put you down to the point I can get away that is self defence,,however if I then after knocking you down start to kick the shit outa you NOW I've become the agressor and your the victim in whicH I can go to jail. When it comes to animals though an un provocted attack is just that. IF there is know signs of agression from the person the animal should not attack, and if it does NOW the Question is what where the cercumstances in the attack....Its a really fine line but it can usaully be solved. But 9 outa 10 its usaully an unprovocted attack (dont quote me on that though)jason Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lummy 4 #33 March 23, 2002 Why would you want to raise a dog vicious? For home protection, personal, fighting (as alleged in the case with the Knowlers?) I feel that in the right environment there are reasons to raise vicious animals, such as to protect livestock or in even some cases for personal protection. Even then, there should be liability for the unexpected which can happen and has.But 2 vicious animals in a city apt? What about when the family dog attacks because the neighborhood kid was poking him with a stick? Where is the line drawn?I'm not talking about your pig tails, I'm talking about your sex appeal.... hit the road and I'm gone.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lazerq3 0 #34 March 23, 2002 QuoteWhat about when the family dog attacks because the neighborhood kid was poking him with a stick?(oh boy here I go again)........I have a dog and a little girl, my little girl likes to chase and torment the dog to some degree, like wrestling, pull its ear a little jsut kid stuff......Yes when that happens I get on my little girl and tell her not to do that and that it can hurt the dog and what not HOWEVER...I've also tuaght the dog to DEAL WITH!!! I dont care what jaylee does to that dog if she (the dog) bites her THATS IT!!! GAME OVER....and the dog knows this!!! If its one thing I WILL NOT put up with its a dog that bites. I dont give a shit who you are ("you" in a general term) and what kind of animal you have ...if it goes at my kid IT will be delt with wether I have to grab it, kick it , punch it, or smack the fucker witha 2x4....If one has an agreesive dog than tell me and I will stay away but one says "oh it wont hurt you, or your kid or whoever " and it does then I have a BIG problem......I recently had this happen to my girl at a friend s house where the little Westy ran across the room and grabbed on to jaylees arm for no reason other than our freinds where saying the dog was just jealous....I ran over grabbed the little shit and needless to say that dog got thrown across the room ...Did I mean tho hurt the dog...NO ..But I was going to do whatever it took to get that dog away form my kid!!Now I'm not trying to sound like "billy badass" here and no I dont go around beating on animals. the point I'm trying to make is that I wont put up with it..If you have a dangerous dog then let me know and I wont bring my kid around but know that if something happens she will always come first over any animal !!!!!!jason Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #35 March 23, 2002 Hi, LazerqQuoteKEY PHRASE...YOUR LIFE IS IN DANGER!!! Um, if someone has broken into my home, and I am there, you bet my life is in danger. I am not going to stop and say "Hello, Mr/Ms unknown stranger who just displayed violence by breaking into my home. What are you here for?". I'm gonna take out my gun and blow his ass away. I am in danger by the very fact that this person has broken into my home. Period. Furthermore, and taking this to the example Skyhawk set, if someone breaks into my home and my vicious guard dog is there, barking and growling, making his presence known, and there is a prominently displayed sign on my property which says I have this vicious dog, then the bad guy takes his chances. (course, I only have cats, but they can be mean, too, on occasion....!). I have an absolute right to protect my home and my property, and especially my life. And if I don't do it, who will? (Nothing against cops, but if I have the time to call y'all, I have the time to get out. I'll call you later.....)Now, in this specific case, I feel that not only did the jury screw up, the judge did, by allowing both a charge of involuntary manslaughter and 2nd degree murder to be decided upon together. CA law specifically states a jury to be instructed that in a case as this, when you have two charges for a crime, one of greater severity than the other, you cannot find the defendent guilty of both the greater and the lesser of the charge (here, involuntary manslaughter and 2nd degree murder). The jury should have been instructed to deliberate to conclusion the 2nd degree murder charge, and in the alternative (once a decision was reached, either not guilty, or hung), then to go to the lesser charge of invol. manslaughter. But if found guilty of the greater charge, to stop deliberating right there. Mark my words, that's where the appeal will come in on. Frankly, there is a lot of info we were not privy to regarding the dogs and their masters. There's lots of evidence (so I have heard) about an "altrenative lifestyle" with photos, etc. these were dangerous dogs. The evidence supports that. 2nd degree murder is not supported by the evidence I know of. It is my personal opinion that invol. manslaughter was the most it could support.But hey, what do I know? I only have an "A" license and no legal training. LOL...Ciels and Pinks-MicheleIf you really want to, you can seize the day; if you really want to, you can fly away...~enya~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lazerq3 0 #36 March 23, 2002 Quote"Hello, Mr/Ms unknown stranger who just displayed violence by breaking into my home. What are you here for?". Awww come on now...didnt you see the movie "dumb & dumber" ? the part where the guy says "its not good business to kill someone you dont know".......... I'm just kidding...yes though if someone breaks into your house then it would be appropriate to say your life is in danger......and if someone is breaking into a house with a dog barking at them and there dumb enough to keep going then they deserve a bite in the ass!!jason Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyhawk 2 #37 March 23, 2002 " I only have an "A" license "people with a licenses are some of the most dangerous ppl i know loland with the dog i mean trained to protectwhat i mean is just like the person that breaks in is hurt then sues you. Opinions are like a-holes everyone has one, the only one that does you any good is yours and all that comes out is shit Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #38 March 23, 2002 I don't know what the law says, I'm not a lawyer.I do know that this was an exteme case. It involved dogs that were raised to be brutal, dogs that were abused by their owners, dogs who were encouraged to be dangerous. The dogs were literally encouraged to do one thing, which ultimately ended in tragedy. If it wasn't this victim, it would've been another.I don't think this means that every dog owner will face criminal charges if a tragedy happens. Dogs are wild animals, and as much as we try to domesticate them, there will be occaisional tragedies. Weather or not the owners are charged should entirely depend on the circumstances. This weeks example was a very clear case, I'm sure the next one will be much more blury.And before anyone accuses me of being callous, I've been attacked by dogs twice. Once was a neighbors doberman, resulting in 18 stiches. I was 14. The result was a VERY apologitic owner, and the dog was put down. The second incident involved a junk yard dog who got free - this one ended with the owner being charged with assault. This time I was 16. I was on my bike, and a pit bull literally chased me down the street, then after a wrong turn I was cornered. Mental note: bikes make good weapons. I got out of this one unscathed.It was in Toronto, so granted that Canadian laws are different then US ones._AmICQ: 5578907MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com AIM: andrewdmetcalfeYahoo IM: ametcalf_1999 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhuurrr 0 #39 March 23, 2002 I think the main reason they went for 2nd degree murder was the fact that after the attack, knoller failed to get help or call 911, and then left the scene of the crime, leaving the victim to die in the hallway.She got what se deserved.... 'nuff said.Jhttp://www.oneeyedjackproductions.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #40 March 23, 2002 Rhurr, where the hell have you been??? havn't seen ya around here in a while.....busy makin movies??marcBSBD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
