hard opening help

[masterrigger1 2]

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I too have jumped plenty of ravens. And I feel they open noticeably harder than a modern skydiving canopy. After all, they were designed and tested as reserves, right ?

Paul,
They were actually first made as mains then later TSO'd as reserves. All of them also had the bridal attachment on them.

People around here had the same main and reserve size and would switch them out when the first one started flaring badly.

MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[mcordell 2]

piisfish

sorry if my reply is not what you wanted to hear. My opinion, even if I haven't been in the activity for 40 years, is valid. At least for me.
If changing canopy is not an option, and relining would be a "last ressource", changing the slider would be one of the ways to get things going.
Larger slider is not "always" better. Sometimes smaller slider could work.
But having an "elderly" (no disrespect here) jumper acting as a test jumper is not, in my opinion again, the most reasonable alternative.
Maybe try to set him up with a demo Spectre with dacron lines. He might like it as much as the Raven. and keep the Raven for the good memories.

The only reason your reply isn't what I want to hear is because it's not an answer to my question. I was just asking for advice on what may help this canopy. If I walked up to you in a grocery store and said "excuse me sir, do you know where the peanut butter is" I wouldn't expect you to answer "your wife is ugly". You are certainly entitled to your opinion about gear selection, which wasn't my choice, but I didnt ask for that opinion. That's all. I have gotten some good advice on a few things to try, some through pm. We will try that. If it works and he gets to keep a canopy he loves then great! There's nothing wrong with that. If it doesn't we will find something that does but it will be his choice...it's his gear. I'm sure you love what you have chosen for yourself. That doesn't make it right for everyone. Thanks for the reply.

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[piisfish 135]

Your question was more : my dad is allergic to peanut butter but he likes the taste. What kind of jelly should I put on his P&B sandwich so he can still eat it.
I suggested to try another kind of butter.
I hope some of the replies you got will get you a solution, and that your dad will continue to enjoy his jumps

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[3mpire 0]

Is a flag slider the same as a pocket slider?

[mcordell 2]

3mpire

Is a flag slider the same as a pocket slider?

Yesterday was the first time I had ever heard "flag slider" but I was told they are the same thing...

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[labrys 0]

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Your question was more : my dad is allergic to peanut butter but he likes the taste. What kind of jelly should I put on his P&B sandwich so he can still eat it.
I suggested to try another kind of butter.

Actually, his question was more like "my dad doesn't like the taste of the peanut butter, but it's the only peanut butter we have. what might we add to it to make it taste better?"

And your answer was more like "get different peanut butter?

Owned by Remi #?

[mcordell 2]

piisfish

I hope some of the replies you got will get you a solution, and that your dad will continue to enjoy his jumps

That's the goal! He is intrigued by my sabre 2 but these things don't come cheap and he doesn't want a canopy with a lot of forward speed...he prefers the 7 cell f-111 because it's forward speed is less and he can land it in a somewhat enclosed area. He used to use a raven for stadium demos and likes 5he design...like I said though, if we can't make it work so be it, but we will at least try

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[ChrisD 0]

mcordell

When I got into the sport, my dad, who owned and operated a dz where I grew up, got back into jumping after having sold his gear a few years before. When he ran his dz he had raven mains and reserves for all his student gear and decided thats what he wanted. We ordered a raven 4 main and raven 3 reserve for his rig...with microline. He was having extremely hard openings so we swapped his slider for a large collapsible zp slider which helped very little...but some. He is still having extremely hard openings. George Galloway told me on the phone the other day that as far as he knows these are the only 2 ravens ever built with microline. Understanding they are intended to open fast, without replacing the line is there any way to slow down the openings? We have tried different packing methods and are going to try the precision pack but with the outside 3 nose openings rolled away from center. Would pockets on the slider help? We are about out of ideas.

How old is your dad, ? I'm not making any age thing here just that you mentioned a long layoff????
Has he jumped any other canopies, I'm hearing a lot about hard openings, but in comparison to what??? It would be a different story if your saying he jumped a 200 Sabre 2 and the thing was packed according to the instructions with the left / right front cells rolled the full 4 times. That usually gets a nice snivel for those that want and enjoy opening at 4 grand all the time. (I'm not makin a statement here just if you pack for a snivel, as I sometimes do,... plan for it.)

Perhaps the thing is doing what it is supposed to do??

C

What's your basis for making the claim its a hard opening?

Loose fillings....

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[woppyvac 0]

Canopy is brand new.... are you sure that the lines are in trim?

Woot Woot!

[BigMark 1]

If he does get another canopy I think a Triathlon 260 would be great for him.

[mcordell 2]

ChrisD

***When I got into the sport, my dad, who owned and operated a dz where I grew up, got back into jumping after having sold his gear a few years before. When he ran his dz he had raven mains and reserves for all his student gear and decided thats what he wanted. We ordered a raven 4 main and raven 3 reserve for his rig...with microline. He was having extremely hard openings so we swapped his slider for a large collapsible zp slider which helped very little...but some. He is still having extremely hard openings. George Galloway told me on the phone the other day that as far as he knows these are the only 2 ravens ever built with microline. Understanding they are intended to open fast, without replacing the line is there any way to slow down the openings? We have tried different packing methods and are going to try the precision pack but with the outside 3 nose openings rolled away from center. Would pockets on the slider help? We are about out of ideas.

How old is your dad, ? I'm not making any age thing here just that you mentioned a long layoff????
Has he jumped any other canopies, I'm hearing a lot about hard openings, but in comparison to what??? It would be a different story if your saying he jumped a 200 Sabre 2 and the thing was packed according to the instructions with the left / right front cells rolled the full 4 times. That usually gets a nice snivel for those that want and enjoy opening at 4 grand all the time. (I'm not makin a statement here just if you pack for a snivel, as I sometimes do,... plan for it.)

Perhaps the thing is doing what it is supposed to do??

C

What's your basis for making the claim its a hard opening?

Loose fillings....

Hard compared to his previous jump experience...including lots of ravens. He has bruises where his leg straps are and I have to edit the profanity out of his video

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[ChrisD 0]

No arguing with the purple stripe, but leave the color in the vid, I for one would love to hear him from the ground???

C

I'd suggest demoing other canopies for perspective. At least then you have a baseline to work from???

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[erdnarob 1]

According to PD, there are many factors contributing to a hard opening. Here they are :
1) position of the jumper at pilot chute launch. You should de-arch to slow down and not look at your canopy but look at the horizon
2) the pilot chute size and fabric : if too big it can make the opening harder by not allowing a progressive deployment. ZP pilot chute fabric has less poriosity than F111 fabric therefore at the same size, it will slow down faster.
3) the type of canopy : some canopy due to their design are prone to hard opening. OTOH the fully elliptical ones are known for being soft at the deployment.
4) type of lines : Dacron or polyester are relatively elastic and provide softer openings than Spectra, Vectran or HMA which are almost without elasticity
5) packing method : slider not against the stoppers make a slammer or not rolling the 3 end cells when asked to.
6) tuck tab : (according Bill Booth) if one tuck releases the riser before the other one, the lines are shorter on the undone tuck and the canopy starts to deploy with these lines which can make a very hard opening
7) leg straps too loose can also be the cause of a hard opening
8) DZ elevation or altitude deployment. Can be a factor for hard opening
9) canopy fabric : F111 provides softer openings than ZP fabric since F111 has more porosity

Remember one thing, slow opening means longer vertical distance needed

I hope that will help

Good luck and tell us about your future deployment

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[piisfish 135]

Quick question, did he try the canopy on subterminal openings ? If yes with what results ?

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[mcordell 2]

piisfish

Quick question, did he try the canopy on subterminal openings ? If yes with what results ?

No. Even on our lowest jumps we have gotten out about 5k with a goold 10 or more second delay. We typically go to 10k on our jumps except for a few at our local airport with a guy that flies us door off to 5k and one jump recently at the dz at 6k due to clouds.

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[piisfish 135]

It might be a way to work the openings through, from slower speeds, trying new stuff there and increasing speed again.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[pchapman 262]

3mpire

Is a flag slider the same as a pocket slider?

Yes and no. The shape is similar, both being on the front of the slider with a pocket. But the flag part can be a foot or two long, so that it physically covers up the nose cells at the beginning of opening. I have a huge one in my Parafoil and PD uses them in their Zero. The pocket is still part of it to add drag to the slider.

In any case for this thread, a flag slider is just one of those things that could help... But doesn't really get at the root of the issue.

Sounds like Precision could have done a better job with selling the canopy. While the customer is right, a company can use their experience to recommend what is really not recommended or tested. Very poor form to make one and then say they never build them like that...

Jumper age is of course is a factor too. While one shouldn't get bruises from openings, I bet that twenty years on, openings all feel harder.

[gowlerk 1,929]

mcordell

***maybe get a modern decent canopy ?

Thanks. That was a bundle of help. When you have been in the sport longer than he has I am sure he will welcome your canopy advice.

I am asking a legitimate question about how to slow the opening of an existing canopy. While I'm sure there are some out there than feel a guy with 40 years in the sport "ain't shit" if he isn't jumping a 60 sq ft canopy and swooping a pit of crocodiles, I feel I should point out that gear selection is a personal choice and he likes the raven. When it was ordered he didn't realize the microline would cause such hard openings. Short of relining the canopy I am simply asking if anyone has some actual helpful advice as to how to slow the openings.


Raven? 40 years? So what. Does he drive an car designed in 1980 and expect it to act like a new car? Just because he used to own a bunch of bagged out f-111 type student canopies that opened fine is no reason to believe a new Raven will open nicely. Ravens open hard, always have. When his gets 3 or 4 hundred jumps on it and becomes bagged out it will open gently. The year is 2013, he doesn't need to do that anymore. Why dick around with slider mods trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear? He deserves better, he's earned it.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[PixieUK 0]

gowlerk

Raven? 40 years? So what. Does he drive an car designed in 1980 and expect it to act like a new car? Just because he used to own a bunch of bagged out f-111 type student canopies that opened fine is no reason to believe a new Raven will open nicely. Ravens open hard, always have. When his gets 3 or 4 hundred jumps on it and becomes bagged out it will open gently. The year is 2013, he doesn't need to do that anymore. Why dick around with slider mods trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear? He deserves better, he's earned it.

Lol - I was just going to post a similar thing about the car analogy and got to the end of the thread and was beaten to it.

As a complete newbie, I cannot imagine why anyone would persevere with a canopy that f&*^ing hurts them every time they open it, then post on here for advice and get pissed off with everyone who tells them to change the canopy to something that won't hurt. Why bother asking if you don't want to hear the answers??

A mind once stretched by a new idea never regains its original dimensions - Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr

[masterrigger1 2]

Quote

3mpire wrote:
Is a flag slider the same as a pocket slider?

Yes and no. The shape is similar, both being on the front of the slider with a pocket. But the flag part can be a foot or two long, so that it physically covers up the nose cells at the beginning of opening.

They are the same.
The two differences are size and who made them.
We called them pocket sliders when we first started using them on the Novas.
Later in life people started also calling them flag sliders.

MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[masterrigger1 2]

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Raven? 40 years? So what. Does he drive an car designed in 1980 and expect it to act like a new car?

The other side of the coin.
If I bought a new 1980's car, I would expect to drive like a new 1980's car.....

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Ravens open hard, always have.

I would have to disagree on that.

If you look back, you will find that we had to do the "bikini" mod to the slider for reserves to make them open faster. You should find these on any older Raven reserve.

MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[gowlerk 1,929]

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If you look back, you will find that we had to do the "bikini" mod to the slider for reserves to make them open faster. You should find these on any older Raven reserve.

Weren't those just installed on the early Ravens? After the (b) series the design was changed to make them open faster. That's why no more bikini slider needed?

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[masterrigger1 2]

Quote

Weren't those just installed on the early Ravens? After the (b) series the design was changed to make them open faster. That's why no more bikini slider needed?

I think the change was just a smaller slider later in life for them.

I have probably about 10-12 reserve rides on Ravens. For the most part they were quite comfortable openings. Only one ever rang my bell and it was a Micro Raven 135.
I actually saw stars all the way to landing, which was not long BTW. I got open about 600 ft!

MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[mcordell 2]

masterrigger1

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Weren't those just installed on the early Ravens? After the (b) series the design was changed to make them open faster. That's why no more bikini slider needed?

I think the change was just a smaller slider later in life for them.

I have probably about 10-12 reserve rides on Ravens. For the most part they were quite comfortable openings. Only one ever rang my bell and it was a Micro Raven 135.
I actually saw stars all the way to landing, which was not long BTW. I got open about 600 ft!

MEL

Yea when he ordered this canopy brand new a couple years ago it came with a relatively small f-111 slider. Obviously it opened pretty hard. George galloway sent us the larger zp slider. When he said it may be the only one in existence perhaps he meant the only one used as a main with spectre...not sure. That being said I suppose I will point out that it opens hard compared to all of his previous NEW ravens...not "bagged out" ravens. I think the assumption was mad that because they were bought for student gear they somehow came sun-faded and worn out. To the best of my recollection precision doesn't offer that as an option.

For the record, there are plenty of people who enjoy classic cars and they seem to start and drive just fine. Just because people have newer technology doesn't mean the old cars are now shit...especially if they are brand new classic cars. I loved my 67 mustang...enjoyed driving it a lot more than my newer minivan. Just saying...I

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[gowlerk 1,929]

Quote

I have probably about 10-12 reserve rides on Ravens. For the most part they were quite comfortable openings. Only one ever rang my bell and it was a Micro Raven 135.
I actually saw stars all the way to landing, which was not long BTW. I got open about 600 ft!

Another way of looking at this is that nearly 10% of the those openings were dangerously hard. Not exactly a ringing endorsement. Just saying.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.