tandem age vs aff/static age

[bodypilot90 0]

Is the Uspa/dropzone at any more or less risk when a under age person does any of the above. if not who do you think they are trying to protect when they raised the tandem age to 18.

[christoofar 0]

It's mostly protecting skydiving itself. Because these "kids" are not of the age of majority, practically anything they sign or their parents/relatives is worthless. Such is the case with child actors who sign into contracts with tv/film studios, etc.

So, in a nutshell, when these kiddos take to the sky they are practically waiverless. It's only a matter of time until this principle is tested. Stay tuned.

____________________________________________________________
I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle.

[slotperfect 7]

When the Tandem concept became reality in the early '80's, it immediately violated the FARs, which stated that each person making an intentional parachute jump from an aircraft in flight had to have TWO parachutes. So, the manufactureres of the gear (Relative Workshop and Strong Enterprises) asked for an exemption, allowing Tandem jumping to exist as "experimental." This exemption listed prerequisites for both the Tandem Master and the Tandem Student, which included the student being 18 years old. Last year when the new FAR Part 105 was released, there was no longer a minimum age reference. Most manufacturers (all except the maker of the Eclipse I believe), and most drop zones for that matter, continued to require their students to be at least 18. USPA recently followed suit and listed their prerequisite as 18 as well. Bill Booth, owner of Relative workshop and DZ.com member, posted a document on the company website about this issue which may answer your question. http://www.relativeworkshop.com/index2.htm (click on the "Tandem" link at the top of the page, then "Jumping with Underage Tandem Students." The point that this article does not address is how the 16 year old girl I took up on her AFF CAT A jump yesterday, well within USPA guidelines, is any less liability. I don't understand that one myself . . . maybe Bill, or the lawyers in this forum can chime in and make it clearer for us.

Arrive Safely

John

[slotperfect 7]

I found this posted by Mike Turoff at rec.skydiving. It's a long read, but may give the reader some insight into how huge the liability is in our industry. #17 answers my question about the difference between underage AFF students and tandem students.

SP
#####################################

Directly below this introduction are letters from T. K. Donle of the Relative Workshop and Robert L. Feldman, their lawyer. For those of you who will take
the time to read the entire posting, you will find out that the Relative Workshop has already spent over one million dollars in getting past lawsuits dismissed dealing with folks that could legally contract for Tandem services. The warning is clear: Underage tandems will expose the manufacturers and the
association to much greater liability and financial damages.

Mike Turoff
(This was a note from TK to a person asking why such a thing was necessary.)

Note from T. K. Donle:

I received your email through Mike Turoff. He felt I should answer your questions, because it was I that petitioned the USPA Board of Directors on behalf of Relative Workshop to create a more respectable age limit for tandem skydivers. I've attached two letters, one from Bill Booth our company president, and the other is from our tandem attorney, Robert Feldman. If you take the time to read those letters, you'll have a real good idea why USPA made the responsible decision to change the age limit.

Here is a short list of why the age limit was put at "age of majority." There is no particular order in this list of reasons, I'm just slamming them down as
I think of them. Your questions are similar to ones we heard at the Board Meeting. Once you're educated on the subject, I think you'll agree that we
made the right decision.

1) Without a legal waiver, no one is protected from a lawsuit getting out of control. Remember, anyone can sue anyone in the USA, anytime they wish for
whatever reason. How expensive the lawsuit is to defend depends on whether there is a valid waiver, and if the plaintiff has a good reason to sue in the
first place. The discovery portion of a lawsuit, when all defendants and the plaintiff are subjected to depositions by defense and plaintiff's attorneys is
what really costs money. Keep in mind that attorneys charge from $225-$350 per hour. If RWS is sued outside of Florida, we have to pay for two attorneys.
2) Who needs to be protected? The Dz, the instructor, the owner of the equipment, the pilot, the owner of the aircraft, the owner of the airport, the
manufacturers of all the equipment used, and USPA. These are the typical defendants in every tandem lawsuit.
3) RWS has spent $1.1 million on tandem defense since 1986. We have never been to court, and we've never settled out of court with a plaintiff. This
money was purely for covering the cost of our legal defense. Essentially defending every Dz and instructor's right to make tandem jumps.
4) Waivers are not legal when signed by anyone who is not of the "age of majority."
5) Parents and legal guardians cannot waive the rights of a minor. So parental consent for a minor to make a tandem parachute jump makes the waiver
"invalid."
6) If you don't have a valid waiver, any lawsuit is prolonged, thus costing the defendants a ton of money. Ask any decent lawyer and he/she will tell you that you stand very little chance of winning a suit when a minor is involved. Judges and juries are very sympathetic to kids when they injured or killed.
When a kid is injured, he/she can defer the lawsuit, meaning normal statute of limitations does not apply. The kid can sue you when they reach the "age of majority."
7) USPA has had an age limit for parachuting since the beginning of time. We just upped it to make more sense in the litigious society in which we live.
8) As a manufacturer, I have my neck in a noose every time my gear is used on a tandem jump anywhere in the USA. Not only my neck, but the necks of our 50 employees.
9) If we have one tandem lawsuit involving a minor, we will be forced to close our doors.
10) Liability insurance to cover these types of lawsuits can cost us $150K-200K per year. We choose to remain "self-insured" knowing that one
lawsuit will make purchasing insurance the following year impossible.
11) USPA paid $336K for insurance this year.
12) USPA had a $200K insurance hike from what it was 5 years ago.
13) USPA can handle one "lawsuit from a minor" because insurance would pay it. But when the 2nd suit comes its way, you can kiss their $3.5 million in net worth away in a heart beat.
14) Without USPA backing us, government regulation, both federal and local, will eat us up. DZs would close by the dozens, and soon it would be hard to find a nice place to jump. Because we'd all be outlaws.
15) I don't trust DZs to make the right legal decision for themselves, never mind my interests.
16) BSRs are about SAFETY, both for the jumper and the SPORT as a whole.
17) Other types of learning disciplines don't attract nearly the number of lawsuits that tandem does. Why? Purely because in tandem, we don't give the
student the training, knowledge or responsibility to save his/her own life. We do that in other disciplines and it's the student's responsibility to save their own butt, and that's the major difference that many jumpers don't realize.
18) PIA doesn't protect manufacturers, they are purely a trade association. It's not in their agenda to create age limits.
19) USPA convinced the FAA not to put an age limit on tandem. I feel that was a big mistake. USPA's reason for that? They didn't want to create more
federal rules regarding any type of parachuting. So I'm glad USPA made the right decision to put this age limit in place.
20) Many on the USPA Board gave the same arguments you put forth. But after they were educated to the risks involved, they voted 18-1 to pass the "age of majority." Believe me, they did the right thing.
21) Kids should not be jumping from aircraft. They don't possess the maturity to really understand the risks. Let them go to wind tunnels if they wish to
feel the sensation of a skydive.
22) Any parent that allows their kid to jump from an airplane is doing it for the "ego boost." And they're just plain irresponsible!

Well, hopefully you're starting to get the picture. If you have more questions, please send them my way. Our company has been working for almost 30
years to make skydiving safer and more enjoyable "for adults." Kids have enough neat stuff to play with these days, let them play. When they get old enough, if they still want to jump, hopefully we'll still be here to assist them in that effort.

Best regards,

T.K. DONLE
Vice President
Tandem Program Director
The Uninsured Relative Workshop, Inc.



Note from Robert L. Feldman:

Law Offices
ROBERT L. FELDMAN
8900 SW 107th Avenue
Suite 203
Miami, Florida 33176
Telephone: 305 - 598-4841
Telecopier: 305 - 598-4842
____________

Board Certified Aviation Lawyer



9 July, 2002



Board of Directors
United States Parachute Association
1440 Duke Street
Alexandria, VA 22314


Re: Risks of Permitting Minors to Make Tandem Parachute Jumps


Dear Members of the Board:

I am an attorney, certified by the Florida Bar in Aviation Law. I am also a life member of USPA and hold a D license. I practice a significant amount of
parachuting injury defense on behalf of drop zones, instructors and parachuting equipment and component manufacturers.

One of my clients, The Uninsured Relative Workshop, has called to my attention that there will be a discussion at your meeting in July about the position of USPA towards tandem parachute jumping for tandem passengers under the age of eighteen. Because critical consideration of this matter has arisen only since the revision of FAR Part 105, I feel that, in our litigious society, it is important that you understand the ramifications of any decision you might reach that approves, or further that does not explicitly ban, such parachuting activities for minors.

As all of you are aware, before a tandem passenger is permitted to jump, he or she is required to sign one or more waiver and assumption of risk agreements. These agreements, sometimes signed after the prospective jumper views a video explaining the dangers of tandem parachute jumping, state that parachuting is a dangerous activity which might result in injury or death to the participant, and that in exchange for being permitted to make a parachute jump, they expressly assume the risks inherent in such activities and further agree not to sue any of the named released individuals (e.g. the drop zone owner, the supplier of airlift, the aircraft owner, the land owner, the tandem instructor, and the equipment manufacturers.) Many of these documents also include a covenant not to sue that provides that the
participant will not sue any of the named released individuals. When a student is injured or dies during a tandem jump, it is not unusual for a lawsuit to result. These lawsuits, in most cases, are for negligence, negligent supervision, and if a death results, for wrongful death. In the injury cases, the plaintiff typically seems to develop amnesia as to any facts indicating that it ever crossed his or her mind, prior to the parachute jump, that he or she might be injured in participating in the parachuting activity.

In defending these lawsuits, the goal of the defense attorney (and their clients) is to make the lawsuit go away as quickly as possible, with the least amount of financial damage to the defendant. Lawsuits that must be defended through trial and appeal stages can often cost well over $100,000.00 in attorneys' fees and litigation costs, exclusive of the amount of damages that a sympathetic jury might assess. The waiver and assumption of risk documents provide good defenses to offset the allegations of the plaintiffs' complaint. Those documents and the covenant not to sue serve to discourage the plaintiff's attorney, who is usually working under a contingency fee agreement where the attorney receives a percentage of the amount of money they recover, from continuing to fight a case where they might lose more than they recover. The contract not to sue, if upheld in the trial, might enable the defendant to recover not only the amount of any judgment assessed against it in the principal case, but also the defense costs and attorney's fees it paid out or owes. In many instances, when a plaintiff realizes that continuing to prosecute their case may cost them in the end, they drop or settle their case at an early stage.

The risk of permitting persons who have not yet reached the age of majority to make tandem jumps is that such persons are below the age where they are able to enter into binding contracts, except for necessities. And parachuting activities will never be construed as necessities. This enables the waiver,
assumption of risk and covenant not to sue contract to be voided and the protection that the contract affords to be negated. A signature of a parent or
legal guardian is of no help because courts have held that such persons cannot contract away the legal rights of the minor.

I will leave it to the attendees at your meeting to describe their experiences in defending lawsuits with valid waivers and to your imagination as to the
potential liability exposure that might result
without them, enough to put tandem equipment manufacturers out of business. But it is not just the actual jump participants and manufacturers who are at risk, should minors be permitted to jump. As you are aware, USPA is often a named party in these lawsuits. Thus, the entire future of sport parachuting and skydiving may be jeopardized by the thoughtless greed of those who would seek to permit minors to jump to increase their profits.

There are other factors to be considered as well, such as the level of maturity and responsibility of younger persons, their ability to appreciate the dangers involved in making a parachute jump and their appreciation of the requirement of complying with the instructions of their instructors to further their
safety. These factors may increase the risk of an accident occurring in the first place.

I urge you to vote to not permit minors to participate in any kind of parachute jump activities, tandem or otherwise and to affirmatively take a position that minors may not participate in parachute jumping of any kind whatsoever. This
regulation should become part of the BSR's. The future of the sport is at stake.

In your consideration of this matter, I will be happy to answer any questions you may have. If I did not have other commitments, I would have attended your meeting in person, but I may be reached on my cell phone, when I am not traveling or in meetings. Mr. T.K. Donle, of The Uninsured Relative Workshop has that number.

Thank you.

Sincerely,


Robert L. Feldman
D-2673

[bodypilot90 0]

I have read all that but the basic question still is........... is the uspa at anymore or less risk on a tandem jump vs aff/static line jump.

I have e mailed all the current candidates as well as the full board. For those who will let me, I will post there replies here. Some are very interesting, I still wonder if they are working for us, the fun jumper

have fun and play safe
Bill

[Jasmin 0]

Quote

Is the Uspa/dropzone at any more or less risk when a under age person does any of the above. if not who do you think they are trying to protect when they raised the tandem age to 18.

I did my first jump at 14 my aff on my 16th bday (as is the age restriction in oz). My best mate later followed suit.
She is now about to go for her AFF rating and I've got my D licence. My brother and his gf have followed suit too.
17 of my friends did jumps before they were 18, many have followed it through. If we cut the age to 18, we may lose many a possible good jumper.
Just my $0.02

ps 10 pts to whoever can figure out what country I'm in if I was sitting in a car doing 150km/h and I wasn't wearing a seatbelt.....yes I realise the stupidity.....

xj

"I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with the earth...but then I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with a car either, and that's having tried both."

[drenaline 0]

Hi Bill,
Am with the vote that they should leave the sport for 18 years and older people, there is too much responsability in this sport and not all the minors have a clue about that, almost all of them want to jump cause they want to show off. I know lots of minor ages that want to do skydiving cause they are depressed or just want to show off and that kind of attitude can get them hurt. If they really like the sport they will do like most of us did, wait till we have enough age to do it and pay our sport and there will be no mommy or daddy to do a law suit.

HISPA 21
www.panamafreefall.com

[reprobate 0]

Here is a for instance - that has happened on a county fair bungee jump -

Daddy is taking Daughter on a 16th birthday outing, she wants to make a tandem skydive so Daddy signs the waivers and something goes wrong. Mama sues everyone involved because Daddy was not the custodial parent.

Carl

[FallRate 0]

I believe you have raised a very imporrtant issue! There seems to be a great deal of interest in keeping the minimum age of 18 for a Tandem Skydive due to liability issues, when the USPA has supported a minimum age for all other types at 16. If a waiver for a 16 year-old static-line or AFF student is not valid and opens up a great deal of liability to the sport, why is it that we only seem to be focusing on the Tandems?

FallRate

[jumpy 0]

Quote

Quote

Is the Uspa/dropzone at any more or less risk when a under age person does any of the above. if not who do you think they are trying to protect when they raised the tandem age to 18.

I did my first jump at 14 my aff on my 16th bday (as is the age restriction in oz). My best mate later followed suit.
She is now about to go for her AFF rating and I've got my D licence. My brother and his gf have followed suit too.
17 of my friends did jumps before they were 18, many have followed it through. If we cut the age to 18, we may lose many a possible good jumper.
Just my $0.02

ps 10 pts to whoever can figure out what country I'm in if I was sitting in a car doing 150km/h and I wasn't wearing a seatbelt.....yes I realise the stupidity.....

I have done exactly the same thing. I got my first jump for my 16th bday (which was only 3 months ago) and have almost finished my s/l course. Why do people beleive that just because someone is 16 there irisponsible and can't take responsiblity for my actions? Even IF I was involved in an accident i would not sue the club unless the accident was due to negligence on there part. Anyone who says they didn't realise there was a danger jumping out of a plane is lying...i mean come on...you can kill yourself falling of a roof.
>21) Kids should not be jumping from aircraft. They don't possess the maturity to really understand >the risks. Let them go to wind tunnels if they wish to
>feel the sensation of a skydive.
>22) Any parent that allows their kid to jump from an airplane is doing it for the "ego boost." And >they're just plain irresponsible!

I think that that is a loud of bull****...i'm beting there are many 'adults' that skydive with less maturity then some 16 year olds.

[PhreeZone 15]

>Even IF I was involved in an accident i would not sue the club

You might not... but would your parents? In the States your parents can file a suit on your behalf even if you don't want one filed until you hit the legal age.

>accident was due to negligence on there part

What would be negliglence? Not enforcing proper seperation and having someone fall through your canopy? Getting a bad spot and end up breaking your leg due to the lack of outs? Its situations like this that minors in the US can sue over if they are alive.

I'm still young at 22 in the sport and had my 19 year old brother do a tandem this summer. I'm barely mature enough to jump and he's done jumping until he matures more. There have been so many times this summer where a jumper younger then me will show up with his GF and he tells her the canopy colors to look for and procedes to go show off to try and impress her jump after jump. He blows the pattern, hooks low and a ton of other things just to impress her and her friends. He's not mature enough to be responcible, follow a pattern, merge with traffic, jump a properly sized canopy, and not toggle hook. With maturity will come the knowledge not to do this... but until that happens I'm left wondering if everylanding if I'll have to help do CPR on a body after a high speed impact.

If you can jump at 16, you can weight till 18... most 16 year olds have enough to worry about and not factoring in jumping at the same time. Any jumper that can't wait from 16 till 18 to jump is'nt really that mature enough of a jumper that I'd be willing to coach them. Its easy to get caught up in the excitement at a DZ, but unless you are fully mature (and I'm yet to meet ANY 16 year old that I would trust jumping) just wait... the sky will still be there.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[jfields 0]

I think the minimum age should be 18 (or local age of majority) for all types of jumps, including AFF, tandem and SL. While some 16 year olds may be mature enough to jump, they are probably the ones that would most understand why they shouldn't, or why they can't.

Skydiving isn't like going on an amusement park ride. It is a lot more serious, and needs to be seen as such. And if that means it is an "18 and over" sport, so be it. It might be a drag for the 15-17 year olds that are positive they want to jump, but they will get over it. There is plenty to do before jumping. They could learn to pack, or even become a packer and save up the cash for their AFF and a rig.

It seems to me that the best way we can keep the sport available for the young kids that want to participate is to make them wait until they are old enough to face the legal ramifications of their actions themselves. I agree that if we throw the age range open to "kids", that the industry-altering lawsuit is a matter of when, not if. Then we all get the raw end of the deal.

[jlmiracle 7]

The problem is the sue happy country we live in. We need to change the laws and how and why people can sue. Its not the maturity of the person. I'm sure we all know a 16 year old that is more mature than most adults. Lawsuits are out of control in this country and it needs to change.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[bodypilot90 0]

the reason is the tandem rig makers raised so much of a stink. plain and simple, the uspa was not at any more of a risk, the rig makers are.

And here is my main beef with it all. You have a rig maker demanding something from the uspa. Should they have any more voice that you or I. Can you or I make a wood deck for a house and say only people over the age of 18 can stand on it?

The Uspa and the dz is not any more or less at risk period.

[pack40 0]

Here in Hungary the legal requirments to jump
is 15 years plus one day of age and finished elementary school. Fortunatly here there are very very few legal cases.

I heard of one case recently
when a jumper laned on a tree and he sued his club because they rushed to help him down from the tree
he got injured -spine injury- and he suid his sports club because the club should have called the Fire Dept. to take him down from the tree. The sad thing
is that the injury sounded serious but the guy was back to work afetr a half year. Later on he sued the club at the end after 2 years, the club had to pay him and give some money for him every month for some years. The club now is nearly bankrupt they had to sell the their equipment. Oh yes and those instructors who where there during the incident are no longer in the club. I think that if the guy would have real serious injuries e.g. he would have been in a wheel-chair for rest of his life I could understand him. But now he can buy a new car get some free money every month and have no medical problems.
I would not sue none of my fellow skydiviers unless they screw something really up and I would have some real serious problems for rest of my life but even in that case I would try to work out some
system that the club would not go bankrupt becasue of me.

The problem that here the judges or police who is investigating have no understanding of the sport.
If anyone at the court tries to explain it he seems
more guilty in the eyes of the judge.

But regarding the age question there are some 15 year old boys/girls who are able to jump. I think this is always depens on the instructor if he sees that this boy is taking it seriously, prepares himself mentally and physically than there can not be any problems. If I knew at that age that I can jump
my life maybe would be diffrenet now.

OVER

[drenaline 0]

Quote

While some 16 year olds may be mature enough to jump, they are probably the ones that would most understand why they shouldn't, or why they can't.

Very true.

I was 10 the first time I saw a skydiver, it was my dream to jump and when I turned 16 I knew I could jump but I didn't want to give my dad or mom the responsability of signing the waiver, so I waited until old enough to pay my stuff, do it legal and risk my own life without making others feel guilty if something happened.

HISPA 21
www.panamafreefall.com

[Jasmin 0]

Quote

Quote

While some 16 year olds may be mature enough to jump, they are probably the ones that would most understand why they shouldn't, or why they can't.

Very true.

Codswallop!
Who says they "can't" or "shouldn't"?

When I was 16 I was a heck load more responsible than a lot of jumpers with a 10 years "extra" maturity.
Girls mature earlier than guys and blah blah blah!
I was also a heck load less reckless then than I am now, my parents recognised I was a competant human being and allowed me to jump, for that I thank them profusely.
The main issue for DZ owners is liability. For me the issue is one of competancy: a switched on 17 year old may very well turn out to be a bloody lot better than an immature 23 year old who freaks out off the door and then doesn't follow the TCO/TA after opening wouldn't you agree?
Age should yes be a factor but not the factor determining if someone should jump.
Competancy might be a good place to start though....

xj

"I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with the earth...but then I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with a car either, and that's having tried both."

[packman 0]

Quote

ps 10 pts to whoever can figure out what country I'm in if I was sitting in a car doing 150km/h and I wasn't wearing a seatbelt.....yes I realise the stupidity.....

i'll guess..........Australia ?

"Trust your Rigger with your Life , but not your Beer or your Wife !"

[Jasmin 0]

No I was on an Autobahn in Germany.
No points for you, the only place you can legally do that in Oz is in the Northern Territory and you couldn't pay me to go there!

xj

"I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with the earth...but then I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with a car either, and that's having tried both."

[packman 0]

Quote

No I was on an Autobahn in Germany.
No points for you, the only place you can legally do that in Oz is in the Northern Territory and you couldn't pay me to go there!

you didnt say you were driving legally in your first post !

"Trust your Rigger with your Life , but not your Beer or your Wife !"

[jfields 0]

Jasmin,

No debate on some 17 year olds being more ready to jump and some 23 year olds. But that is sort of moot.

Nobody can know for certain how a particular student will react in the air on their first jump. Some will be fine. Some will be dangerous nightmares. Since you can't tell ahead of time, it makes sense for the DZ to make sure that the ones who freak out are all legally responsible for themselves. And as we know, you can do everything right and still die. While the "clued-in" young jumper might not have sued, their parents might if they are the legal age of responsibility. The DZ simply must protect itself.