obelixtim 147 #26 February 17, 2013 QuoteThats one thing that concerns me with the spectra reserve cord... someone could easily pull some of the cord out above the pillow and just snip it with a pair of scissors real quick, and wouldnt be noticeable. Thats why I check it every time my rig lays around a while, just being paranoid but a real possibility...with all the crazies out there today.Frown OK, There's no need to get too stressed about this unless you have lots of enemies and leave your rig lying around unattended. Otherwise its not a problem. What it does highlight is for anyone and everyone who jumps out of a plane the need, as a basic survival technique, the knowledge about what and how their gear works, and an understanding of exactly all the pre jump checks that can be done before flinging themselves from an aeroplane. You can learn these things before jump number one, but if not, before you go solo... Jump out?.... You're on your own.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #27 February 18, 2013 Quote Furthermore, can you show me in the FAR's anything that says a broken seal invalidates the reserve pack job? How about this! § 65.133 Seal. Each certificated parachute rigger must have a seal with an identifying mark prescribed by the Administrator, and a seal press. After packing a parachute he shall seal the pack with his seal in accordance with the manufacturer's recommendation for that type of parachute. This has already been a hot topic with the FAA with regard to two high profile incidents. The manufacturer's instructions end with sealing the parachute after packing and offer no other recourse. Not one manufacturer out there has instructions for anything different and the regulations hold the sealing of the parachute to "after Packing". The end result is that the seal is "to prevent tampering" (FAA interpretation after packing BTW...) and removal of the seal violates that purpose.. Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 278 #28 February 18, 2013 But I thought the idea was that the rigger has to seal it, if the manufacturer says, which is 99% of the time. But nothing says the user, or indeed the rigger, can't rip the seal off a minute later. If there's another reg that says a seal must be present to jump the rig, great, but 65.133 doesn't seem to prevent ripping the seal off... If a DZ or jumper doesn't want to jump an unsealed rig, that's another matter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waveoff5500 0 #29 February 18, 2013 for one there isnt any research into the effects of sand or dirt on the spectra rip cord. i like how the spectra ripcord retains the slack in the line which eliminates the slack of the metal cord which extends out of the handle. just personal preference. also i feel it is less exposed to wear than other components made of spectra. so overall with an inspection every 6 months i feel comfortable with it."its just a normal day at the dropzone until its not" 1653 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #30 February 18, 2013 Quote But I thought the idea was that the rigger has to seal it, if the manufacturer says, which is 99% of the time. 65.133 requires all riggers to seal their parachutes after packing it. The manufacturer's instructions back that up with instructions to do it also. Quote But nothing says the user, or indeed the rigger, can't rip the seal off a minute later. If there's another reg that says a seal must be present to jump the rig, great, but 65.133 doesn't seem to prevent ripping the seal off... It is all about intent. Two questions here? 1. Are you a FAA certified rigger 2. If you are a certified FAA Rigger, do you not understand the intent of 65.133? If you are a FAA rigger, I have a real problem with someone not knowing the simple intent of that rule. Also, do you see instructions from the manufacturer or the FAA stating to remove the seal minutes later? I am pretty sure if you ask the manufacturer or the FAA if ripping the seal off minutes later is their intent, the answer would be "No". The recent incident at Monterey Bay sheds some light on the fact that the FAA is looking for the seal after an event like this. It is noted in the FAA report BTW... Also attached is a little more info on sealing. MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,304 #31 February 18, 2013 Hi Mark, QuoteIt is all about intent. 1. The referenced document has to do with lead seals vs paper seals, not keeping the seal on to be in date/legal/etc. 2. Where I worked ( US gov't agency with ~ 100 attorneys on staff ) we were always told 'intent' counts nothing. 'Intent' is up to individual interpretation. 3. Over the years I have had numerous FAA personnel tell me point blank that they cannot be held to what they tell me verbally, only that which they put into writing. And this has been my experience. IMO (only) 'intent' will not stand up in a court room. You have your opinions and others have theirs. And neither of us works for the FAA. When the FAA issues a document ( similar to your referenced document ) that the seal has to be intact for the parachute to be legally used/in an airplane, then I will accept that. Until then, we will have to agree to disagree. Just my $0.02 on this, JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 278 #32 February 18, 2013 Nope, my rigger rating isn't from the FAA. I don't particularly care about intent. (Just like the NPS doesn't care about the original intent of its rules on aerial delivery, as they apply it to BASE jumpers.) If the FAA has a rule that a rig without a seal can't be jumped, whether the seal was removed accidentally or deliberately, then that's another matter. Just wanted to state my case; leaving further argument to the other threads dedicated to rigging rules. Quote Also attached is a little more info on sealing. Perfect, that was the FAA interpretation from a previous thread that I was thinking of -- the FAA want to see a lead seal rather than say paper, no matter what a manufacturer might say. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #33 February 18, 2013 Quote 1. The referenced document has to do with lead seals vs paper seals, not keeping the seal on to be in date/legal/etc. The document shows that the FAA is serious about seals and how they want them installed. Quote IMO (only) 'intent' will not stand up in a court room. Intent of regulations are held up in court everyday. For example speed limits are set with the intention of keeping traffic at or below a certain speed.... Quote You have your opinions and others have theirs. And neither of us works for the FAA. While I am not employed by the FAA, I along with the other DPREs are usually held to a higher standard in their eyes. For example, I am usually asked to give my interpretations on certain subject matter to the powers to be. I am sure other DPREs are asked to do the same. Also this exact subject matter (lead seals) was one of them before the document that I posted came out. Quote When the FAA issues a document ( similar to your referenced document ) that the seal has to be intact for the parachute to be legally used/in an airplane, then I will accept that. Until then, we will have to agree to disagree. Jerry, I will have to ask you point blank also since I know that you are a certificated FAA rigger. Do you or do you not understand that the seal is used to identify the rigger and prevent tampering of the pack job according to the FAA? This exact question is asked in the written exam at least twice in each test BTW. With that said, I would consider a FAA test question somewhat of a document, would you not? This is the puzzling part. If the FAA spent enough effort to include sealing in the regs, backed it up with the document that I posted, included it in the inspector's handbook as action items to be checked during surveillances; why anyone would actually think it was there for mere decorative purposes. That is basically what you are stating BTW if you think the rig is OK to jump with a broken seal or simply without one. With that, I ask you why you think the seal is actually required to be installed? Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 147 #34 February 18, 2013 QuoteQuoteNope, my rigger rating isn't from the FAA. I don't particularly care about intent. (Just like the NPS doesn't care about the original intent of its rules on aerial delivery, as they apply it to BASE jumpers.) If the FAA has a rule that a rig without a seal can't be jumped, whether the seal was removed accidentally or deliberately, then that's another matter. Just wanted to state my case; leaving further argument to the other threads dedicated to rigging rules. Quote Also attached is a little more info on sealing. Perfect, that was the FAA interpretation from a previous thread that I was thinking of -- the FAA want to see a lead seal rather than say paper, no matter what a manufacturer might say. As a rigger, the seal protects me. I once had a situation where a person dumped their reserve on the ground (a roundie), and the pilot chute bridle was NOT attached to the parachute. Apart from the fact that I had not packed it like that, (my name and number were on the card), the seal was missing. So it was out of date and had no seal, but that didn't stop people throwing flak at me. There was no way I was going to accept that, or responsibility for the way it was found. Out of date and no seal. Many years later the owner admitted that he had popped the rig and swapped the pilot chute, and hadn't reattached the bridle cord to the parachute.. I still don't know exactly when he did what he did, but had he used it and had an incident, my arse would have been on the line. The seal ensures that no one has messed with the reserve. People should not be allowed in the plane without a seal on their reserve.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DiverMike 5 #35 February 18, 2013 Couldn't you argue that the seal is similar to the tags that must appear on mattresses when they are initally sold.? In the case of a reserve repack it shows the consumer they received the service for which they paid. It does make is easier to assert that F.A.R. 105.43b is being followed if an intact seal exists, but there is nothing in that regulation that requires it. For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,304 #36 February 18, 2013 Hi Mark, QuoteDo you or do you not understand that the seal is used to identify the rigger and prevent tampering of the pack job according to the FAA? My seal has my symbol & name on it. I do not agree that it is there to prevent tampering. Please cite the FAR that says so. I have stated my position and you have stated yours. Such is life, JerryBaumchen PS) I have yet to meet a DPRE that walks on water. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #37 February 19, 2013 Quote Please cite the FAR that says so. Jerry, Last post on this... You are missing the obvious. I have stated and posted the FAR that requires a seal to be installed... Now the ball is your court to show me a FAR that allows it to be removed. Quote PS) I have yet to meet a DPRE that walks on water. While I don't claim to walk on water, I do claim that sometimes my opinion matters... MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 278 #38 February 19, 2013 Quote Now the ball is your court to show me a FAR that allows it to be removed. While I wouldn't think that is necessary, I see your point: There are for example specific rules on who can modify TSO'd components, and even who can modify or pack main parachute components -- whether or not most skydiver and even riggers may think the FAA rules stupid. (eg, You were a big contributor to the discussions on clarifying about Master vs Senior riggers replacing lines on mains). So what is a seal? It isn't part of the main parachute system. It doesn't seem to be an actual TSO component. For now I'll say it is something that must be installed by FAA rules, but after that, it doesn't fall into any specific airworthiness category. So someone with a different initial position than you would have to ask: Cite an FAR that shows that the seal cannot be removed, for example due to it falling into some category of required equipment. Edit: Hmm, in the "discussions for another day" category, how about what happens when the reserve card is lost. The rigger may have filled everything out as required by the FAA, but if the card falls out in freefall, or an owner loses it, what then? It does happen from time to time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #39 February 19, 2013 QuoteNow the ball is your court to show me a FAR that allows it to be removed. There's no FAR that says it must remain in place or one that says it may be removed. I treat it like this: My seal is the tamper evident indicator much like specialized tape. It's to let the end recipient know that I was the last person inside there. If they feel like taking the seal off, that's their decision... They forfeit the ability to blame me for anything inside once the seal is gone."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,304 #40 February 19, 2013 Hi Mark, As I posted above: "we will have to agree to disagree." QuoteI have stated and posted the FAR that requires a seal to be installed... Quit moving the target, this is about a seal not staying on the rig. Installing and staying on the rig are two completely different things IMO. Once again, just in case you missed it: We will have to agree to disagree. I will not waste anymore time on this issue. JerryBaumchen PS) I have asked the Chair of the PIA Rigging Comm to put the issue of not having to install any seal of any type on the agenda for discussion in Daytona. PPS) And so no misunderstands, I have met Mark on at least two different occasions and consider him a very nice person. He is also someone that I, personally, consider extremely knowledgeable when it comes to sewing machines. As I tell people who ask, he is my GoToGuy. Just for the record. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cjdskydiver 4 #41 February 19, 2013 QuoteQuotei could see that being an issue. i do a majority of my jumping in ohio though so i dont run into the corrosive issue from sand. But if you know one has a vulnerability that could cause it to fail when needed, and the 70+ year old solution is tried and proven, why change?? Just askin... JW I emailed Bill and Mark at UPT about it last year and never received a response...I have several concerns over using Spectra for a reserve ripcord...some of which have already been brought up in this thread...all it's gonna take is one incident... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DBCOOPER 5 #42 February 20, 2013 Got a question for all of the wizzards of silk. After a manual reserve deployment what happens to the seal? Still there? Evaporate into the atmosphere? Hang on by a thread?Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #43 February 20, 2013 QuoteGot a question for all of the wizzards of silk. After a manual reserve deployment what happens to the seal? Still there? Evaporate into the atmosphere? Hang on by a thread? Generally if they pull the handle and clear the cable, the seal gets broken off by the ripcord housing. RSL seems to do a decent job of ripping them off too."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
neflier 0 #44 February 20, 2013 If anyone really wants an answer to this then write your local FSDO and ask for FAA legal to provide an interpretation. It will take several months, but you will get an answer, and it will be final. Been there, done that, on other issues.Life is too short to drink cheap beer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 147 #45 February 20, 2013 QuoteGot a question for all of the wizzards of silk. After a manual reserve deployment what happens to the seal? Still there? Evaporate into the atmosphere? Hang on by a thread? Sometimes it'll be lost, depending on the rig. However, a pre jump gear check (we all do them right??) would confirm that the seal was in place before the jump.... It would be interesting to do a few spot checks on rigs at the DZ, and I'd imagine if the FAA inspectors came calling it might be something it would look at. Lots of missing seals would reflect badly on the DZO...My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fcajump 164 #46 February 20, 2013 Quote Quote Got a question for all of the wizzards of silk. After a manual reserve deployment what happens to the seal? Still there? Evaporate into the atmosphere? Hang on by a thread? Sometimes it'll be lost, depending on the rig. However, a pre jump gear check (we all do them right??) would confirm that the seal was in place before the jump.... It would be interesting to do a few spot checks on rigs at the DZ, and I'd imagine if the FAA inspectors came calling it might be something it would look at. Lots of missing seals would reflect badly on the DZO... Years ago I was at a DZ that was unwelcome by the local pilot clubs... We had the FAA on the field doing spot checks every month or so. They wanted to see the pack data card AND that the seal was intact and matched the card. At least THAT field office thought it should be intact/present/match. JW PS - they never did find ANY reason to write up the DZ... unfortunately the locals won through bleeding the legal coffers with constant challenges. Always remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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