blueshrew 0 #151 December 1, 2002 Quote the last, the Spanish American war, was around the turn of the 20th century. Now -> 21st century, last century -> 20th, Spanish war 19th century -> two centuries ago. And as you have pointed out, neither you, your parents nor your grandparents ever had to think about living in a war. My parents have, my grandparents have, and at one point I almost have lived in a war. Quote I, nor my father, or my father's father have not had to deal with that, doesn't that mean that we, the United States should pull out of the UN and NATO and let the rest of the world deal with its own problems. I am not saying the US has not done a lot of good in the world. But lately it seems the US govt has gone out of its mind. It wants to start a war, plain and simple, whether it has taken the time to actually inform its citizens that it has declared war. The first reason was the UN inspections, but after that wasn't an issue anymore, there are still troops being sent in. And the reason now? It seems the main reason IS access to Iraqi oil, which has been so stated by Bush. Now why am I remembering Iraqs invasion into Kuwait, which was for access to Kuwaiti oil? Quote I for one am not the biggest supporter of the handling of the Iraq situation and the "Axis of Evil", but our allies do (ie those people that the world shunned until 1945, yeah you know them, the Jews, we as a civillized society owe a debt for idly standing by, IMHO.) Sadamm is giving rewards to the Palestinian Suicide bober's family's... Your allies are the ones behind the idea??? It that what you think? It is more like the Euro govts are playing along to not become the almighty's enemy. I have not seen one person approve of a decision to support the US in its war. The one statement that goes remotely in that direction is "well, they did free us from the Nazis". As for the Jews, when will they finally stop whining about WW2. It was not ONLY the Jews, the Jews were just a fraction of those shunned, but they are the only ones still complaining cause it is obviously still working to their advantage. I think the Jewish people in Israel are as much terrorists as are the Palestinians there. If you see the Israeli map of 1967 and compare it to today's map, you will probably be shocked. Saddam may be supporting the Palestinians, but loads of other states are supporting the Jews. So to that effect, both sides are idiots. Both are supporting them in killing each other. I was once asked:" Do you think the US supports Israel so they create a mess down there, so that will make the Middle Eastern countries unstable?" I've never really thought about it much but now, I say: Congratulations to both sides, you have created an even larger mess with more dire consequences. I think the only way the Israel conflict will ever stop is if clear boundaries are set, which will hopefully be implemented by 2005. I suppose we will then see, who will really want peace, and who will still terrorize. Quote Two agressive conflicts with 35 years, in a country that refuse to even teach its children about the errors of their leadership at that time, nay to even teach them about that era at all, that is mildly ironic. If you forget the past, it will be come your future. The children are very well informed about their history. If you've ever been to Germany, you will see that bright and clear if you bring up the subject. I honestly don't know who told you this fabricated tale. I suggest telling your govt that last sentence. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blueshrew 0 #152 December 1, 2002 You are confusing war with terrorism. And you are confusing a bunch of terrorists with whole nations. In fact, you seem pretty confused overall. I would like to know where I said I knew YOU, and where the post was that showed you some past experience beyond my knowledge. I do appreciate informed opinions and discussions, but your post conveys neither. Sorry if that sounds unfriendly, but the post just sound very immature and naive. Like something I would have written when I was 15. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quatorze 1 #153 December 1, 2002 Quote the last, the Spanish American war, was around the turn of the 20th century.Now -> 21st century, last century -> 20th, Spanish war 19th century -> two centuries ago. 1896 was the start, I think 108 years, not 200, but that is nitpicky. Quote And as you have pointed out, neither you, your parents nor your grandparents ever had to think about living in a war. My parents have, my grandparents have, and at one point I almost have lived in a war. and as I said there is no way for me to feel or understand the way you must have felt, but please refrain from talking my statements out of the context in which they were made. If you are going to reply to a post, please reply to it all and do not pick apart and use what yuo want, that is poor debating. Quote I, nor my father, or my father's father have not had to deal with that, doesn't that mean that we, the United States should pull out of the UN and NATO and let the rest of the world deal with its own problems. Quote I am not saying the US has not done a lot of good in the world. But lately it seems the US govt has gone out of its mind. It wants to start a war, plain and simple, whether it has taken the time to actually inform its citizens that it has declared war. By right of law the president has 90 days before he must ask the legislative leadership for a declaraion of war in which to act or re-act as the case may have it. Quote The first reason was the UN inspections, but after that wasn't an issue anymore, there are still troops being sent in. And the reason now? You may be correct, but I have as of yet heard of any mass deployments unerway, when the 82nd Airborne Division, America's Guard of Honor, heads to the Corps Marhalling Area, then we can discuss the troops [qoute] It seems the main reason IS access to Iraqi oil, which has been so stated by Bush. Now why am I remembering Iraqs invasion into Kuwait, which was for access to Kuwaiti oil? What makes an ally, surely you do not like all the people that you work with. Yet you help them when you can, since you all depend on the same thing (ie paycheck). But is that form of alliance not allowed when dealing with nation states? Should the US not be an ally with Germany because we speak a different native tounge, or Spain or France who practices a Socialistic form of commerce that is so different from our Capitalism? But yet when someone that we do business with is over ran, their land/homes taken from them, we should not help them, because we do business with them? Quote I for one am not the biggest supporter of the handling of the Iraq situation and the "Axis of Evil", but our allies do (ie those people that the world shunned until 1945, yeah you know them, the Jews, we as a civillized society owe a debt for idly standing by, IMHO.) Sadamm is giving rewards to the Palestinian Suicide bomber's family's... Quote Your allies are the ones behind the idea??? It that what you think? Do I think that? No. But when you play for a team, you play for the team, and make some considerations, such as, if the US goes to war with Iraq, are they going to launch missiles at Israel? Quote It is more like the Euro govts are playing along to not become the almighty's enemy. I have not seen one person approve of a decision to support the US in its war. unless I have missed something in the past two days there is no war, just the US forcing the Iraqi government to abide by the UN sacntions set in place eleven years ago. Quote The one statement that goes remotely in that direction is "well, they did free us from the Nazis". No, we did not, the Soviets carried the brunt of that fight, we did contirbute, but had it not been for the USSR and the cold Russian winter, D-day probably never would have happend, it would not have happened in 1945 due to German strength and in 1946 the Nazi's almost assuredly would have had the "Bomb", what would that have done to the invasion armada? Quote As for the Jews, when will they finally stop whining about WW2. When every nation, business (Bayer etc,etc) owns up. Quote It was not ONLY the Jews, the Jews were just a fraction of those shunned, you are correct there were others, Poles, Gypsies, French et all, but the fraction that you so flippantly mention is more than 3/4ths of the total Nazi concentration camps. Quote but they are the only ones still complaining cause it is obviously still working to their advantage. Are they whining, or are they the only people that were subjugated to Hitler's insanity who are still fighting for the right to exist? See my previos post about the war in which the Palestians and other Arab nations tried to push the Jews into the sea in 1967. Quote I think the Jewish people in Israel are as much terrorists as are the Palestinians there. Nope, terrorist attack civillians, like the Palestininas do, Israel is sending forces to capture the ones who would do so, please view earlier post. [qoute]If you see the Israeli map of 1967 and compare it to today's map, you will probably be shocked. Which one are you refering to the one before or after they were suddenly attacked? Quote Saddam may be supporting the Palestinians, but loads of other states are supporting the Jews. And Saddam is definately not the only state supporting the Palestinians. I deleted the rest of your post Shrew, in concern for space and the fact that the "creating a mess" question is one that I have never heard and have nothing to debate on the point Quote I think the only way the Israel conflict will ever stop is if clear boundaries are set, which will hopefully be implemented by 2005. I ws under the impression that there already were pretty strict lines, but one side, does not like them. Pick a fight, loose, deal with it Quote I suppose we will then see, who will really want peace, and who will still terrorize. I guess we will Quote Two agressive conflicts with 35 years, in a country that refuse to even teach its children about the errors of their leadership at that time, nay to even teach them about that era at all, that is mildly ironic. If you forget the past, it will be come your future. Quote The children are very well informed about their history. If you've ever been to Germany, you will see that bright and clear if you bring up the subject. I honestly don't know who told you this fabricated tale. Just some German Foreign exchange students back in 1998 at my University who were extremely surprised by the lack of information that they had been handed growing up No one reallyI suggest telling your govt that last sentence. We, do try, and show me a country who has done as much in 226 years of existance to right the worlds wrongs and I will owe you a beer or two I'm not afriad of dying, I'm afraid of never really living- Erin Engle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Iflyme 0 #154 December 1, 2002 QuoteThere is NO place on this planet like the US. Some places have better this or better that but NONE have it all like we do in the USA. This is so typical of the egocentric view of the world many Ameicans have. What is the "all" you mean? A country with a perverse fascination with guns and violence? A country that gobbles up the planets natural resources so fast they must start a war on another continent to ensure a continuing supply of a fossil fuel? A country that has a huge percentage of it's population in prison? Get off your soapbox ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quatorze 1 #155 December 1, 2002 QuoteQuoteThere is NO place on this planet like the US. Some places have better this or better that but NONE have it all like we do in the USA. QuoteThis is so typical of the egocentric view of the world many Ameicans have. What is the "all" you mean? A country with a perverse fascination with guns and violence?[/guns] Do you really believe that we are a lot of Clint Eastwoods and Charles Bronsons? Please, if you want to learn what real Americans are like, do not pay attention to the American media, they love to sensationalize anything and everthing that supports their liberal agenda. *** A country that gobbles up the planets natural resources so fast they must start a war on another continent to ensure a continuing supply of a fossil fuel? Yup, you're right, we are risking our servicemen and women's lives just to save a nickel a gallon for gas. This from the country that gave up almost all of its amenties (ie meat gasoline, silk, tobacco and paper) to fight a war that could have been prevented 6 years prior to our entering. See my previous post, please, I lack the dexterity to re-type the reasons again. Quote A country that has a huge percentage of it's population in prison? Not quite as large as one would like to believe, but thank God that we have the American Judicial system, what, would you rather us chop off the offending hand of the crook, or better yet, just kill anyone for their wrong doing. The penal system is something that we brought across the Atlantic with us, not some new American Idea. QuoteGet off your soapbox Better idea, get off your judgemental soapbox and open your eyes, what or where would the world be if the United States of America had continued its practice of isolationism that we cherished before the First World War? I'm not afriad of dying, I'm afraid of never really living- Erin Engle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AndyMan 7 #156 December 1, 2002 QuoteBetter idea, get off your judgemental soapbox and open your eyes, what or where would the world be if the United States of America had continued its practice of isolationism that we cherished before the First World War? Well, lets see. Al Qaeda wouldn't exist, Iraq would've long ago been wiped out by Iran, Saudi Arabia probably wouldn't be creating terrorists, and the greater part of the world wouldn't hate the US. Palestinians would've made peace with Isreal long ago. Oh yeah, the WTC would probably still be standing. The benefit of the interventionalist US foreign policy since WWII is debatable at best. I find it fundamentally wrong that while europeans can barely afford to put gas in their volkswagons, americans seem to think it's a crime to have to pay 1.29/gallon to fill their suburbans. America is not threatened by Iraq. No matter how many nuclear or biological weapons Sadam makes, he's at least 20 years from being able to put them into the US. This even assumes he WANTS to put them in the US. Before US attacked in 90 Sadam considered the US an ally. Before he invated Kuwait, he was not even on the US's radar screen. Iraq is a threat to Iran, Kuwait, Jordan, and Isreal - None of which are Nato members. The ONLY reason the US got involved with iraq is they saw its expansion into kuwait as a thread to the oil industry. It WAS a threat to the oil industry. The oil fires left in the wake of the war is testment to that. The Gulf war was about oil. Even if you read the "official line", it was about "protecting US interests". What interests, besides oil does the US have in the gulf? The current Iraq issues is STILL about oil. It's about protecting OPEC countries who aren't in NATO. The US is obligated to be involved in the protection of Nato countries. They are not obligated to protect OPEC countries. Iraq being about oil is not neccesarily a bad thing. We just need to be honest about what it is. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites blueshrew 0 #157 December 1, 2002 Quote Now -> 21st century, last century -> 20th, Spanish war 19th century -> two centuries ago. 1896 was the start, I think 108 years, not 200, but that is nitpicky. Nitpicky it is, as is repointing out that 1896 is the 19th century, which is 2 centuries ago Quote but please refrain from talking my statements out of the context in which they were made. If you are going to reply to a post, please reply to it all... I should ask you to do the same, i.e. try to understand the point behind a statement, and not put it in another context. If I delete part of the post, it is for length, as you also do, which is in the end ok, so I don't bicker about it. Quote Quote I am not saying the US has not done a lot of good in the world. But lately it seems the US govt has gone out of its mind. It wants to start a war, plain and simple, whether it has taken the time to actually inform its citizens that it has declared war. By right of law the president has 90 days before he must ask the legislative leadership for a declaraion of war in which to act or re-act as the case may have it. That also is nitpicky, note that I have said "wether they have informed, etc.". There are US troops surrounding Iraq, there were fighter planes in action. That for me is a war. Quote No, we did not, the Soviets carried the brunt of that fight, we did contirbute, but had it not been for the USSR and the cold Russian winter, D-day probably never would have happend, it would not have happened in 1945 due to German strength and in 1946 the Nazi's almost assuredly would have had the "Bomb", what would that have done to the invasion armada? The context was: I did not come across one person supporting the decision of the US war against Iraq, but the remotely related statement was: "well they did help us out with the Nazis, so we are in debt and so should help them out now." How about that for taking a thing out of it's context? Quote Quote As for the Jews, when will they finally stop whining about WW2. When every nation, business (Bayer etc,etc) owns up. If you survived the time around holocaust when you were just born, you would be somewhere around 50 by now, and all you will know about it will be of someone's stories. So the people who were affected by slavery are not the mass of Jewish people still alive. The holocaust may have left orphans or relatives. But I have never heard of a descendant of a slave or orphan of another race or religion demanding compensation so loudly (correct me if I'm wrong). Quote See my previos post about the war in which the Palestians and other Arab nations tried to push the Jews into the sea in 1967. Quote I think the Jewish people in Israel are as much terrorists as are the Palestinians there. Nope, terrorist attack civillians, like the Palestininas do, Israel is sending forces to capture the ones who would do so, please view earlier post. That doesn't surprise me in the least, that that's what you were led to believe. Small children and babies would fall under the terrorist category then, I suppose. People who were murdered because the wrong house was hit, or because it's better to bomb that house, just in case a terrorist is inside. The horrors are slowly reaching Europe, and people are starting to see through the lies. It is very easy to hide the enemy's suffering and only show that of your friends'. Both sides have terrorists, but also "normal" people. I have met several Jewish and Palestinian Israeli citizens over the past few years, including this year. Both were of that opinion. There is even a group of Jewish women who call themselves Women in Black, that stand in the streets to protest for that cause once a week. The Israeli govt IS a very conservative one, which does fall under the religiously extremist/fanatic imho. That doesn't necessarily reflect the opinions of the Jewish Israelis. Quote [qoute]If you see the Israeli map of 1967 and compare it to today's map, you will probably be shocked. Which one are you refering to the one before or after they were suddenly attacked? Does that matter at that point? If they were "thrown into the sea", the UN would have stepped in. The boundaries were broken several times. Jewish Israel is now way, and I mean way larger that it was when it was first devided. Quote Quote I think the only way the Israel conflict will ever stop is if clear boundaries are set, which will hopefully be implemented by 2005. I ws under the impression that there already were pretty strict lines, but one side, does not like them. Pick a fight, loose, deal with it Wrong impression. Well at least in the effect that those lines weren't pushed over and over again. If there were clear lines, it probably wouldn't have come to what it has today. There is an effort being made to recreate a state Palestine. Israel is supposed to get devided to form a new Israel and a new Palestine. Quote Quote The children are very well informed about their history. If you've ever been to Germany, you will see that bright and clear if you bring up the subject. I honestly don't know who told you this fabricated tale. Just some German Foreign exchange students back in 1998 at my University who were extremely surprised by the lack of information that they had been handed growing up No one really You can't force lazy scholars to be good in a school subject. That has nothing to do with whether it is taught. Quote We, do try, and show me a country who has done as much in 226 years of existance to right the worlds wrongs and I will owe you a beer or two Does Ancient Egypt qualify But I don't like beer anyway Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quatorze 1 #158 December 1, 2002 One at a time please gentlemen, unless there are others out and about who would care to join in j/k Quote Quote Better idea, get off your judgemental soapbox and open your eyes, what or where would the world be if the United States of America had continued its practice of isolationism that we cherished before the First World War? Quote Well, lets see. Al Qaeda wouldn't exist, Iraq would've long ago been wiped out by Iran, Saudi Arabia probably wouldn't be creating terrorists, and the greater part of the world wouldn't hate the US. Palestinians would've made peace with Isreal long ago. Oh yeah, the WTC would probably still be standing. You are correct, but what would happen if the US did not give grain to the USSR even though they were our enemies at the time, or how about the billions of dollars of war debt from our enemies and our allies that we forgave, how about the fact that whenever a minor flodd happens the US sends help, uncaring for what we shall see in return. Do not bite the hand that feeds, for it may not return Quote The benefit of the interventionalist US foreign policy since WWII is debatable at best. debateable? Ask the Afghani children who are know receiving real medical attention regardless of gender what they think. Quote I find it fundamentally wrong that while europeans can barely afford to put gas in their volkswagons, americans seem to think it's a crime to have to pay 1.29/gallon to fill their suburbans. Yet again, we are stereotyed, in my life I have only known two people to own those hulking monstosities(sp?), almost everyone that I know works just as hard for their money as you and buys autos according to economics. Several of my friends chose to ride a bicicyle in light of the economy. And no we are not all cowboys either Quote America is not threatened by Iraq. No matter how many nuclear or biological weapons Sadam makes, he's at least 20 years from being able to put them into the US. Try ten. But hell in twenty I hope to still be here, with a relatively young family, nip the problem in the bud, or face what the world did back in 1938. Quote This even assumes he WANTS to put them in the US. But what about our allies? Yet again, please read my previous post, what if the US leaves NATO and the UN, who shall the rest of the world turn to? If we shall be your ally, then please be ours. Quote Before US attacked in 90 Sadam considered the US an ally. That part of the world can claim several different times of US alliance, can't argue with you about any. Quote Before he invated Kuwait, he was not even on the US's radar screen. Almost true, the CIA and the DOD were aware, but the general populace...no, we were not. Quote Iraq is a threat to Iran, Kuwait, Jordan, and Isreal - None of which are Nato members. So very true, non-NATO members, but would that stop you from helping your co-worker, or your grocer or your random neighbor if they were being attacked, just because they did not belong to the same country club as you? No, and that is nation-state polotics writ large. Quote The ONLY reason the US got involved with iraq is they saw its expansion into kuwait as a thread to the oil industry. Yup, and to our grocer who asked for help, do you really think that the Kuwaiti's would have given medals to our (and I mean the coalition troops) if they did not want us there, or do you think that the Saudi's would have let us use KKMC the way that we did? Quote It WAS a threat to the oil industry. The oil fires left in the wake of the war is testment to that The Gulf war was about oil. You are right, it was about oil, Saddam's desire to control all of the oil and force the UN/NATO/OPEC/US to submit to its demands, it is called emperialism, and it went away with the Japanese in the '40's Quote Even if you read the "official line", it was about "protecting US interests". What interests, besides oil does the US have in the gulf? Stability, for one, and please do not try and say that there were not numerous other nations contirbuting armed men to the gulf war, that was a UN decision. Stability, for two, since in the past the US has been called upon to do the UN's policing of the trouble spots. I for one would love to see the US pull out of the UN, just to keep or troops home and let everyone then say, " Why aren't you helping us?" Quote The current Iraq issues is STILL about oil. It's about protecting OPEC countries who aren't in NATO. The US is obligated to be involved in the protection of Nato countries. They are not obligated to protect OPEC countries. Not about oil with Iraq, that country doesn't contian enough oil deposits to concern the US, but the other countries, yes the US is obliged to help some of them, that is what treaties are signed for Quote Iraq being about oil is not neccesarily a bad thing. We just need to be honest about what it is. I think that we have been I'm not afriad of dying, I'm afraid of never really living- Erin Engle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Michele 1 #159 December 1, 2002 Hi, Nadine. Notwithstanding the other arguments (which may or may not have value, from both sides of the coin)...would you please clarify - specifically - about the "whining of the Jews" that you mentioned? I'm just really curious to understand more of your viewpoint on this specifically. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites blueshrew 0 #160 December 1, 2002 Hi Michele, by whining, I mean that they are still complaining about WW2. half a century later. after they were given a state that was just created like that. after getting loads of compensations, apologies, memorials, and god knows what else. But maybe my point may be misunderstood. I have nothing against Jews as Jews, and I should add that I was not talking about the majority, but the obvious and loud speaking part. But I do have something against the Jews that use their Judaism as a means of gaining power, money or whatever else they want to gain by that. I think probably a real Jew would not act that way, same as a real Moslem for instance wouldn't commit acts of terrorism. It is just the ones that make the headlines that catch our attention the most, and about whom we seem to generalize. I do have something against people who use and abuse anything they can by claiming a certain identity. And I do have something against terorrists. And so my statement was not clear, for that I appolagize. Hope that was clear and not even more confusing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quatorze 1 #161 December 1, 2002 Shrew, sorry for the delay in replying, and if it is OK with you I will not rehash the same nitpicky items and save a little bandwith Quote I am not saying the US has not done a lot of good in the world Thank you, we actually really do try and do the right thing. ( And there is no sarcasm meant in that reply) Quote But lately it seems the US govt has gone out of its mind. How would you feel if your country which was supposedly at peace was so suddenly and violently attacked, more severely than had been seen in sixty years? Quote It wants to start a war, plain and simple, whether it has taken the time to actually inform its citizens that it has declared war. I might have missed something since Friday, since I don't follow the news on the weekends, but the last I heard the UN team had been approved, if something differnent has happened please advise. Quote There are US troops surrounding Iraq, there were fighter planes in action. That for me is a war. And there have been since 1991, they are enforcing something know as the UN No-Fly Zone Quote No, we did not, the Soviets carried the brunt of that fight, we did contirbute, but had it not been for the USSR and the cold Russian winter, D-day probably never would have happend, it would not have happened in 1945 due to German strength and in 1946 the Nazi's almost assuredly would have had the "Bomb", what would that have done to the invasion armada? Quote The context was: I did not come across one person supporting the decision of the US war against Iraq, but the remotely related statement was: "well they did help us out with the Nazis, so we are in debt and so should help them out now." How about that for taking a thing out of it's context? Sorry, I guess that I did misinterpret the meaning of your original statement. I guess that I am tired of the rest of the world forgetting that the Pacific Theater ws really where America came to shine. ( For all of you U.ncle S.am's M.isguided C.hildren reading this... Simper Fi! Quote As for the Jews, when will they finally stop whining about WW2. When every nation, business (Bayer etc,etc) owns up. If you survived the time around holocaust when you were just born, you would be somewhere around 50 by now, and all you will know about it will be of someone's stories. So the people who were affected by slavery are not the mass of Jewish people still alive. The holocaust may have left orphans or relatives. But I have never heard of a descendant of a slave or orphan of another race or religion demanding compensation so loudly (correct me if I'm wrong). Loud? Yes, but if not factual, why would Bayer, and VW, and Switzerland have complied so quickly and then offered apologies? Quote Quote I think the Jewish people in Israel are as much terrorists as are the Palestinians there. Nope, terrorist attack civillians, like the Palestininas do, Israel is sending forces to capture the ones who would do so, please view earlier post. Quote That doesn't surprise me in the least, that that's what you were led to believe. Small children and babies would fall under the terrorist category then, I suppose. People who were murdered because the wrong house was hit,or because it's better to bomb that house, just in case a terrorist is inside. No, it is not better to just bomb a house, but a misdropped/thrown bomb that is called collateral damage, not a target, alwas a very regrettable accident, but not the way terrorist see it. Quote The horrors are slowly reaching Europe, and people are starting to see through the lies. I was under the impression that they had always been there, just not that publicized, the global press, still likes Europe. Quote It is very easy to hide the enemy's suffering and only show that of your friends'. Not in this country, just ask the soldiers and or the anti-war protesters from the Vietnam era, our press has some rather great freedoms Both sides have terrorists, but also "normal" people. I have met several Jewish and Palestinian Israeli citizens over the past few years, including this year. Both were of that opinion. There is even a group of Jewish women who call themselves Women in Black, that stand in the streets to protest for that cause once a week. The Israeli govt IS a very conservative one, which does fall under the religiously extremist/fanatic imho. That doesn't necessarily reflect the opinions of the Jewish Israelis. Quote [qoute]If you see the Israeli map of 1967 and compare it to today's map, you will probably be shocked. Which one are you refering to the one before or after they were suddenly attacked? Does that matter at that point? If they were "thrown into the sea", the UN would have stepped in. The boundaries were broken several times. Quote Jewish Israel is now way, and I mean way larger that it was when it was first devided. Fine, by me, be the agressor and lose the contest, you don't really have much to comlpain about. Don't start trouble, there will not be trouble. Quote Quote I think the only way the Israel conflict will ever stop is if clear boundaries are set, which will hopefully be implemented by 2005. I ws under the impression that there already were pretty strict lines, but one side, does not like them. Pick a fight, loose, deal with it Quote Wrong impression. Well at least in the effect that those lines weren't pushed over and over again. If there were clear lines, it probably wouldn't have come to what it has today. But who is doing the pushing? Quote There is an effort being made to recreate a state Palestine. You are correct, but who is pushing that idea the strongest? The US maybe? Israel is supposed to get devided to form a new Israel and a new Palestine. Quote Quote The children are very well informed about their history. If you've ever been to Germany, you will see that bright and clear if you bring up the subject. I honestly don't know who told you this fabricated tale. Just some German Foreign exchange students back in 1998 at my University who were extremely surprised by the lack of information that they had been handed growing up No one really Quote You can't force lazy scholars to be good in a school subject. That has nothing to do with whether it is taught. Very, true, I hope that maybe I fall into the category of the un-lazy scholar Quote We, do try, and show me a country who has done as much in 226 years of existance to right the worlds wrongs and I will owe you a beer or two Does Ancient Egypt qualify But I don't like beer anyway How about a shot of tequilla?And Gentlemen that is it for me today, my fingers are way too tired to continue this discussion right now, if you will all excuse me, I think that I will adjourn and go back to posting about BOOBIESedit to say: DAMN that was long and whomever reads through it all... YOU DA MAN!!! I'm not afriad of dying, I'm afraid of never really living- Erin Engle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites QuickDraw 0 #162 December 1, 2002 This Break was Brought to you by: QuickDraw =- -- Hope you don't die. -- I'm fucking winning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites unlucky1 0 #163 December 1, 2002 Hey brother...sorry it took so long to take your back, but work called. I myself support you wholeheartedly. It seems as the bleeding heart liberals have nothing better to do than to nitpick and throw out false information about the U.S. and her commendable history. Sure is weird that the people who seem to be the least educated about America are the same people who reside outside our beloved U.S. They have no idea what patriotism is. If America is so bad....why is everybody trying to move into our little area of the world? I myself refuse to type any lengthy message that will be nitpicked to death by a bunch of people from other nations that "depend" on U.S. assistance everytime something brews up in their country...(i.e. hunger, disease, war, economy problems, etc.). I think i will become President and that way I can snub everybody that ever gave us the finger. The U.S. earned that right. Its a shame how we go out of our way to support other nations before we support our own starving, poor residents first. Its not so much a shame that we help these nations to survive...but that in the end...they snub us and talk down to us. As for the worst offenders on this discussion about the greatness of the U.S.....don't worry Quartorze....they seem to support the terrorists so much that they will probably strap an explosive on their own belly and then we don't have to listen to them anymore. SEMPER FI Aggie, Quartorze, and every other patriotic American. God Bless. I refuse to acknowledge any other unappreciative individual on this post. GOD BLESS THE U.S.A. ! ! ! ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Michele 1 #164 December 1, 2002 Hi, Nadine Thanks for responding. Quote I mean that they are still complaining about WW2. half a century later. after they were given a state that was just created like that. You mean, after Israel was declared a state in 1947, and have had serious diffuculty maintaining that state? You mean, they shouldn't have been given a state, or that the on-going battle for their existence? I'm not sure about what the whining part is here. Please clarify for me? As for the complaining part, the Holocaust survivors I know have not complained to me...but have done what they could do to deal with the continuing issues years in concentration camps have left them with. The complaints I hear are more to the effect of "you don't eat enough, bubbis...have another plate". The tributes to those who were murdered are, imho, intensely moving and very appropriate. When you consider that 6 million jews were killed, and many millions more affected, I don't think a few tributes, memorials and compensation to those survivors is inappropriate. QuoteBut maybe my point may be misunderstood. I have nothing against Jews as Jews, and I should add that I was not talking about the majority, but the obvious and loud speaking part. I think I did misunderstand you. Jews should be quiet and not stand up for themselves and their existence? (See, I don't think you're saying this, so I must've misunderstood you.) QuoteBut I do have something against the Jews that use their Judaism as a means of gaining power, money or whatever else they want to gain by that. Do you feel the same about the Japanese who were recompensed from the American pocket? Do you feel the same about the American Indians? How about the blacks in America? They all have/are trying to use their "whateverness" to garner financial remuneration from me. How do you feel about that? And what about you feel about the Catholics using their Catholicness/Catholic power to supress illegal incidents as pertains to their clergy? Etc. Quote I think probably a real Jew would not act that way, same as a real Moslem for instance wouldn't commit acts of terrorism. What's a real jew? Or a real muslim for that matter? QuoteIt is just the ones that make the headlines that catch our attention the most, and about whom we seem to generalize. I try really hard to not generalize. Yes, I fall short of that mark on a regular basis. So, if it's the headlines that you object to, to which headlines are you referring? Again, just looking for clarification. QuoteAnd so my statement was not clear, for that I appologize. Hope that was clear and not even more confusing. I must've had too much turkey, 'cause I'm still not seeing your point. Will you please try again? I'd appreciate it. I will admit, I have a personal visceral reaction to some of your statements. I would not like to think you believe that my father, for example, has ever used his jewishness to garner special benefits. Nor would I like to think that you believe that Jews, in fighting back, are out of line for doing so. I don't think you really believe that Saul, one man for whom I worked, used his little blue numbers to gather sympathy from a group of people. And I certainly hope you don't believe that something as significant as the brutal murders of 6,000,000 people, some whose skin ended up as lampshades, are complaining about it superficially, and without significant memories of a war which was more evil than could've been imagined. Putting my growing apprehension aside, I would ask please to try to explain again for me your position on the Jews. I really would appreciate it. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LouDiamond 1 #165 December 2, 2002 Well I just came back from the Thanksgiving Boogies and low and behold..this madness continues. Here is the short and sweet: The US has it's share of bones in the closet, what country doesn't? Everything in life is about perspectives. If I remember correctly ,this thread started out on a slightly different topic than what is currently being debated. The cold hard truth is that it's a cruel world, always has been and will continue to be so long after we're gone. If your one of the folks opposed to the war because of the oil issue I say to you. Stop using products/byproducts manufactured from oil. Life should be just peachy in your mud hut as you eat your curd and whey. I totally disapprove of bringing the "whining Jews" (blue shrews words) topic into this discussion. Save that shit for your Klan/white power BBs. It has nothing to do with what was originally being talked about. Service memebers have more than one perspective. They are the ones there, doing the deeds and seeing things in person AND they get to come home and see what society and what really drives society, the media has portrayed on the nightly news. As far as blending in or understanding a countries mentality is concerned,( I understand this and know what was trying to be conveyed) you don't need to know all those facets in order to understand poverty, hunger , disease or oppression. It's a sick world and there will always be a need for those of my profession, wheather you agree or not. I wash my hands of this topic/thread as it has digressed to the point of being so far off topic that it's futile to contiue with the current diatribe. For those that wish to continue this topic, I will be in Eloy from X-mas to the 3rd. Find me and we can talk about it in person "It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gawain 0 #166 December 2, 2002 QuoteExcuse me for not mentioning wars 2 centuries ago. No, I will not excuse you. This is a classic case of omitting information to perpetuate a political or social doctrine bent on denial. This is evident by your "two centuries" remark -- still, to the end, stretching the truth, warping history and manipulating the language. QuoteMy point is, if WW3 breaks out, how worried are you going to be about your life and your family's life as compared to someone who lives closer to that region ... ? I live 8 miles from a nuclear power plant, and the same distance from a major US Marine base, less than 50 miles from a USAF base, same too with a significant US Naval ammunition depot, and am within 80 miles of five (5) major airports, serving nationwide and International routes. I think about 9/11 every day. I think about what could happen, how, when, where...and how I hope to react. My immediate family are in similar geographical situations. I knew three people at the WTC, one of them was a good friend. A relative was just getting out of her car at the Pentagon when it was hit, and I had several relatives that were with our Department of State, in Bonn, when Germany was still two countries (a result of European enlightened diplomatic abilities), one of whom endured the Berlin Airlift. So, in response to your "how worried are you going to be about your life and your family's life as compared to someone who lives closer.." My answer is I think about it every day. All of us were touched by it, and I know that I will be able to play whatever role is required of me if I ever have to face that day. Countries like Iraq, Iran, North Korea, Syria (and others still in my opinion) cannot mount an all-out offensive against us, even if they wanted to. But, they have the money to support the likes of 20 men who killed 3000 of my countrymen (that's a kill ratio of 150:1). Those numbers are far more effective through terrorist operations against our civilians. QuoteBut maybe Bush is just blowing off gas...? I for one, sure hope so, even though I will be the last to support the Iraqi regime. You better hope G. W. Bush is not simply blowing off steam. There's a reason why the UN Security Council vote was unanimous, and it wasn't simply a bunch of diplomatic "favors" being handed our by our government. They are seeing things that we do not know, recognizing patterns of information that we've not seen. Quote... if WW3 breaks out... It probably won't happen here, you're right. What does that tell you about our little corner of the world? We are a country which is composed of a mish-mash of people from everywhere. We have our disputes. We have our scandals. We still talk about JFK. To the point, we have had a long standing dispute with Canada over Maritime boundaries (Beaufort Sea, Dixon Entrance, etc). You haven't seen anyone lobbing shells or planes at each other. The last thing I want to see is our boys go to war...sh*t, I jump with a lot of folks that are active military...I've not seen them around the dropzone lately, I sure would like to see them come home. The last major dispute in Europe resulted in the deaths of 300,000 Muslims in the former Yugoslavia. Prior to that, Czechoslovakia fell to the USSR/Warsaw Pact in 1968. Prior to that, Poland, Belgium fell to the Nazis and France was forced to surrender to Hitler in the same train car that forced the German surrender at the end of WWI.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bobsled92 0 #167 December 2, 2002 QuoteYou are confusing war with terrorism. And you are confusing a bunch of terrorists with whole nations. In fact, you seem pretty confused overall. I would like to know where I said I knew YOU, and where the post was that showed you some past experience beyond my knowledge. I do appreciate informed opinions and discussions, but your post conveys neither. Sorry if that sounds unfriendly, but the post just sound very immature and naive. Like something I would have written when I was 15. Your apology is accepted. My past is why I now choose a simple life in the present. Growing up in a life of active Para-military, I have experienced enough to say that I've seen alot of pain in the World. I've also learned that I no longer have to tolerate certain things or people. Sarajevo, Columbia, North Africa, & the Opium field of Thailand. There are good and bad everywhere. Many here at DZ.com are very familiar with WAR. It is a sad World in which we live, thank you for reminding me that it's supposed to be dreadful for all._______________________________ If I could be a Super Hero, I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year. http://www.hangout.no/speednews/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites blueshrew 0 #168 December 2, 2002 I am not quoting your post this time, as the length is getting ridiculous. -I don't think you believe that the US is the only state that was violently attacked in i the last 60 years. -The troops that are being sent to the Iraqi border are not MFOs. The UN team HAS been approved. And you did just answer my previous post about why there is still a decision of war (remember the oil thing?). -My point was (in regard to Jewish compensations): They have gotten loads in that respect, which I didn't say is wrong, or that one can ever compensate another one for what happened. But they have not been the only one mistreated in the past, and as you have said in reagrard to something else, there is a point where anyone will have to move on. Whatever race, nationality or religion. -You DO only see the Jewish Israeli side of events, as I gather from your post. The Palestinian Israeli side seems to only reach Europe. Can you honestly believe that a tank firing a bomb will not kill 10 times (probably more) more civilians than terrorists. It is not just one event involved, but just about every event. There ARE terrorists on both sides, whether one side is dressed as soldiers or not. And it is obviously easy to hide things in the US, too. If you're ever near or in Israel, you might meet "normal" Jewish as well as Palestinian Israelis. Ask them. both. -Again, I say, look at the maps. If the Jewish regions have multiplied, in which way would the pushing be going? -The US is involved in the 'Quartet', but I would not exactly say that it is the driving force behind it. -Tequila it is then Anyhting but beer, whisky and cachaca. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites blueshrew 0 #169 December 2, 2002 Try sticking to the context of my post (or reading more of them), and not extracting a whole different meaning to it, then I will reply. The US BTW unfortunately is not the only country that has suffered a terrorsit attack in the last year or so. To unlucky: Yeees, it is so convenient to say things like: you have sympathy with terrorists, or you're just jealous, or something as rediculous, when you don't agree with someone, and don't really know how else to reply. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites blueshrew 0 #170 December 2, 2002 Hi Michele, second attempt: first a reply: Israel was declared a state, but it was created "on top" of another state (this is not a point I care to be pro or contra at the moment, so take it as it is, which is what happened). It has been battling forever, but have you ever seen it lose any land? so much for fighting for its existence. But I do see your point. And if you are of that opinion, then I would be surprised it you were not of the opinion that Palestinians also are fighting for their existence. At this point in time, both fighting parties are plain WRONG to do so, at this point, there is no bad/good anymore. There are "normal" people of both races/religions that do get along, but they are not as interesting for the media, I suppose. Apart from the "war regions", people in Israel seem to be seeing it on the news, like anyone sitting in another country. Don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. Seen them, talked to them, seen that they disapprove of the violence. I am talking about both Jewish and Palestinian Israeli citizens living among other places in Eilat e.g. I am of the opinion that the only valid argument in this case would be to support the Quartet, and hope that this will finally bring peace. Now the explanation: You have yourself said, that you haven't heard holocaust survivers complain to YOU. Those are probably what I would classify as real Jews, maybe the choice of words here was misleading. My point was, which I wrote in a previous post: at some point you have to move on. I never said that it is bad or anything but fair that they received the lot, but at some point, and I think we are there now, the world DOES understand and have respect. I as a woman do not still have to stand up for myself, because I am a woman, that fight is history, I stand as a person. I have not known one person to seriously judge me because I'm a woman, and there is not one thing or right I was denied because I am woman. I laugh at the super emances, because they spend more time arguing their rights than actually taking them. So my point in the end is, that I think that fight is also over (and Israel is a totally different issue now), but when will it stop being an issue we get worked up on? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 7 of 7 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. 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AndyMan 7 #156 December 1, 2002 QuoteBetter idea, get off your judgemental soapbox and open your eyes, what or where would the world be if the United States of America had continued its practice of isolationism that we cherished before the First World War? Well, lets see. Al Qaeda wouldn't exist, Iraq would've long ago been wiped out by Iran, Saudi Arabia probably wouldn't be creating terrorists, and the greater part of the world wouldn't hate the US. Palestinians would've made peace with Isreal long ago. Oh yeah, the WTC would probably still be standing. The benefit of the interventionalist US foreign policy since WWII is debatable at best. I find it fundamentally wrong that while europeans can barely afford to put gas in their volkswagons, americans seem to think it's a crime to have to pay 1.29/gallon to fill their suburbans. America is not threatened by Iraq. No matter how many nuclear or biological weapons Sadam makes, he's at least 20 years from being able to put them into the US. This even assumes he WANTS to put them in the US. Before US attacked in 90 Sadam considered the US an ally. Before he invated Kuwait, he was not even on the US's radar screen. Iraq is a threat to Iran, Kuwait, Jordan, and Isreal - None of which are Nato members. The ONLY reason the US got involved with iraq is they saw its expansion into kuwait as a thread to the oil industry. It WAS a threat to the oil industry. The oil fires left in the wake of the war is testment to that. The Gulf war was about oil. Even if you read the "official line", it was about "protecting US interests". What interests, besides oil does the US have in the gulf? The current Iraq issues is STILL about oil. It's about protecting OPEC countries who aren't in NATO. The US is obligated to be involved in the protection of Nato countries. They are not obligated to protect OPEC countries. Iraq being about oil is not neccesarily a bad thing. We just need to be honest about what it is. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blueshrew 0 #157 December 1, 2002 Quote Now -> 21st century, last century -> 20th, Spanish war 19th century -> two centuries ago. 1896 was the start, I think 108 years, not 200, but that is nitpicky. Nitpicky it is, as is repointing out that 1896 is the 19th century, which is 2 centuries ago Quote but please refrain from talking my statements out of the context in which they were made. If you are going to reply to a post, please reply to it all... I should ask you to do the same, i.e. try to understand the point behind a statement, and not put it in another context. If I delete part of the post, it is for length, as you also do, which is in the end ok, so I don't bicker about it. Quote Quote I am not saying the US has not done a lot of good in the world. But lately it seems the US govt has gone out of its mind. It wants to start a war, plain and simple, whether it has taken the time to actually inform its citizens that it has declared war. By right of law the president has 90 days before he must ask the legislative leadership for a declaraion of war in which to act or re-act as the case may have it. That also is nitpicky, note that I have said "wether they have informed, etc.". There are US troops surrounding Iraq, there were fighter planes in action. That for me is a war. Quote No, we did not, the Soviets carried the brunt of that fight, we did contirbute, but had it not been for the USSR and the cold Russian winter, D-day probably never would have happend, it would not have happened in 1945 due to German strength and in 1946 the Nazi's almost assuredly would have had the "Bomb", what would that have done to the invasion armada? The context was: I did not come across one person supporting the decision of the US war against Iraq, but the remotely related statement was: "well they did help us out with the Nazis, so we are in debt and so should help them out now." How about that for taking a thing out of it's context? Quote Quote As for the Jews, when will they finally stop whining about WW2. When every nation, business (Bayer etc,etc) owns up. If you survived the time around holocaust when you were just born, you would be somewhere around 50 by now, and all you will know about it will be of someone's stories. So the people who were affected by slavery are not the mass of Jewish people still alive. The holocaust may have left orphans or relatives. But I have never heard of a descendant of a slave or orphan of another race or religion demanding compensation so loudly (correct me if I'm wrong). Quote See my previos post about the war in which the Palestians and other Arab nations tried to push the Jews into the sea in 1967. Quote I think the Jewish people in Israel are as much terrorists as are the Palestinians there. Nope, terrorist attack civillians, like the Palestininas do, Israel is sending forces to capture the ones who would do so, please view earlier post. That doesn't surprise me in the least, that that's what you were led to believe. Small children and babies would fall under the terrorist category then, I suppose. People who were murdered because the wrong house was hit, or because it's better to bomb that house, just in case a terrorist is inside. The horrors are slowly reaching Europe, and people are starting to see through the lies. It is very easy to hide the enemy's suffering and only show that of your friends'. Both sides have terrorists, but also "normal" people. I have met several Jewish and Palestinian Israeli citizens over the past few years, including this year. Both were of that opinion. There is even a group of Jewish women who call themselves Women in Black, that stand in the streets to protest for that cause once a week. The Israeli govt IS a very conservative one, which does fall under the religiously extremist/fanatic imho. That doesn't necessarily reflect the opinions of the Jewish Israelis. Quote [qoute]If you see the Israeli map of 1967 and compare it to today's map, you will probably be shocked. Which one are you refering to the one before or after they were suddenly attacked? Does that matter at that point? If they were "thrown into the sea", the UN would have stepped in. The boundaries were broken several times. Jewish Israel is now way, and I mean way larger that it was when it was first devided. Quote Quote I think the only way the Israel conflict will ever stop is if clear boundaries are set, which will hopefully be implemented by 2005. I ws under the impression that there already were pretty strict lines, but one side, does not like them. Pick a fight, loose, deal with it Wrong impression. Well at least in the effect that those lines weren't pushed over and over again. If there were clear lines, it probably wouldn't have come to what it has today. There is an effort being made to recreate a state Palestine. Israel is supposed to get devided to form a new Israel and a new Palestine. Quote Quote The children are very well informed about their history. If you've ever been to Germany, you will see that bright and clear if you bring up the subject. I honestly don't know who told you this fabricated tale. Just some German Foreign exchange students back in 1998 at my University who were extremely surprised by the lack of information that they had been handed growing up No one really You can't force lazy scholars to be good in a school subject. That has nothing to do with whether it is taught. Quote We, do try, and show me a country who has done as much in 226 years of existance to right the worlds wrongs and I will owe you a beer or two Does Ancient Egypt qualify But I don't like beer anyway Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quatorze 1 #158 December 1, 2002 One at a time please gentlemen, unless there are others out and about who would care to join in j/k Quote Quote Better idea, get off your judgemental soapbox and open your eyes, what or where would the world be if the United States of America had continued its practice of isolationism that we cherished before the First World War? Quote Well, lets see. Al Qaeda wouldn't exist, Iraq would've long ago been wiped out by Iran, Saudi Arabia probably wouldn't be creating terrorists, and the greater part of the world wouldn't hate the US. Palestinians would've made peace with Isreal long ago. Oh yeah, the WTC would probably still be standing. You are correct, but what would happen if the US did not give grain to the USSR even though they were our enemies at the time, or how about the billions of dollars of war debt from our enemies and our allies that we forgave, how about the fact that whenever a minor flodd happens the US sends help, uncaring for what we shall see in return. Do not bite the hand that feeds, for it may not return Quote The benefit of the interventionalist US foreign policy since WWII is debatable at best. debateable? Ask the Afghani children who are know receiving real medical attention regardless of gender what they think. Quote I find it fundamentally wrong that while europeans can barely afford to put gas in their volkswagons, americans seem to think it's a crime to have to pay 1.29/gallon to fill their suburbans. Yet again, we are stereotyed, in my life I have only known two people to own those hulking monstosities(sp?), almost everyone that I know works just as hard for their money as you and buys autos according to economics. Several of my friends chose to ride a bicicyle in light of the economy. And no we are not all cowboys either Quote America is not threatened by Iraq. No matter how many nuclear or biological weapons Sadam makes, he's at least 20 years from being able to put them into the US. Try ten. But hell in twenty I hope to still be here, with a relatively young family, nip the problem in the bud, or face what the world did back in 1938. Quote This even assumes he WANTS to put them in the US. But what about our allies? Yet again, please read my previous post, what if the US leaves NATO and the UN, who shall the rest of the world turn to? If we shall be your ally, then please be ours. Quote Before US attacked in 90 Sadam considered the US an ally. That part of the world can claim several different times of US alliance, can't argue with you about any. Quote Before he invated Kuwait, he was not even on the US's radar screen. Almost true, the CIA and the DOD were aware, but the general populace...no, we were not. Quote Iraq is a threat to Iran, Kuwait, Jordan, and Isreal - None of which are Nato members. So very true, non-NATO members, but would that stop you from helping your co-worker, or your grocer or your random neighbor if they were being attacked, just because they did not belong to the same country club as you? No, and that is nation-state polotics writ large. Quote The ONLY reason the US got involved with iraq is they saw its expansion into kuwait as a thread to the oil industry. Yup, and to our grocer who asked for help, do you really think that the Kuwaiti's would have given medals to our (and I mean the coalition troops) if they did not want us there, or do you think that the Saudi's would have let us use KKMC the way that we did? Quote It WAS a threat to the oil industry. The oil fires left in the wake of the war is testment to that The Gulf war was about oil. You are right, it was about oil, Saddam's desire to control all of the oil and force the UN/NATO/OPEC/US to submit to its demands, it is called emperialism, and it went away with the Japanese in the '40's Quote Even if you read the "official line", it was about "protecting US interests". What interests, besides oil does the US have in the gulf? Stability, for one, and please do not try and say that there were not numerous other nations contirbuting armed men to the gulf war, that was a UN decision. Stability, for two, since in the past the US has been called upon to do the UN's policing of the trouble spots. I for one would love to see the US pull out of the UN, just to keep or troops home and let everyone then say, " Why aren't you helping us?" Quote The current Iraq issues is STILL about oil. It's about protecting OPEC countries who aren't in NATO. The US is obligated to be involved in the protection of Nato countries. They are not obligated to protect OPEC countries. Not about oil with Iraq, that country doesn't contian enough oil deposits to concern the US, but the other countries, yes the US is obliged to help some of them, that is what treaties are signed for Quote Iraq being about oil is not neccesarily a bad thing. We just need to be honest about what it is. I think that we have been I'm not afriad of dying, I'm afraid of never really living- Erin Engle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #159 December 1, 2002 Hi, Nadine. Notwithstanding the other arguments (which may or may not have value, from both sides of the coin)...would you please clarify - specifically - about the "whining of the Jews" that you mentioned? I'm just really curious to understand more of your viewpoint on this specifically. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blueshrew 0 #160 December 1, 2002 Hi Michele, by whining, I mean that they are still complaining about WW2. half a century later. after they were given a state that was just created like that. after getting loads of compensations, apologies, memorials, and god knows what else. But maybe my point may be misunderstood. I have nothing against Jews as Jews, and I should add that I was not talking about the majority, but the obvious and loud speaking part. But I do have something against the Jews that use their Judaism as a means of gaining power, money or whatever else they want to gain by that. I think probably a real Jew would not act that way, same as a real Moslem for instance wouldn't commit acts of terrorism. It is just the ones that make the headlines that catch our attention the most, and about whom we seem to generalize. I do have something against people who use and abuse anything they can by claiming a certain identity. And I do have something against terorrists. And so my statement was not clear, for that I appolagize. Hope that was clear and not even more confusing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quatorze 1 #161 December 1, 2002 Shrew, sorry for the delay in replying, and if it is OK with you I will not rehash the same nitpicky items and save a little bandwith Quote I am not saying the US has not done a lot of good in the world Thank you, we actually really do try and do the right thing. ( And there is no sarcasm meant in that reply) Quote But lately it seems the US govt has gone out of its mind. How would you feel if your country which was supposedly at peace was so suddenly and violently attacked, more severely than had been seen in sixty years? Quote It wants to start a war, plain and simple, whether it has taken the time to actually inform its citizens that it has declared war. I might have missed something since Friday, since I don't follow the news on the weekends, but the last I heard the UN team had been approved, if something differnent has happened please advise. Quote There are US troops surrounding Iraq, there were fighter planes in action. That for me is a war. And there have been since 1991, they are enforcing something know as the UN No-Fly Zone Quote No, we did not, the Soviets carried the brunt of that fight, we did contirbute, but had it not been for the USSR and the cold Russian winter, D-day probably never would have happend, it would not have happened in 1945 due to German strength and in 1946 the Nazi's almost assuredly would have had the "Bomb", what would that have done to the invasion armada? Quote The context was: I did not come across one person supporting the decision of the US war against Iraq, but the remotely related statement was: "well they did help us out with the Nazis, so we are in debt and so should help them out now." How about that for taking a thing out of it's context? Sorry, I guess that I did misinterpret the meaning of your original statement. I guess that I am tired of the rest of the world forgetting that the Pacific Theater ws really where America came to shine. ( For all of you U.ncle S.am's M.isguided C.hildren reading this... Simper Fi! Quote As for the Jews, when will they finally stop whining about WW2. When every nation, business (Bayer etc,etc) owns up. If you survived the time around holocaust when you were just born, you would be somewhere around 50 by now, and all you will know about it will be of someone's stories. So the people who were affected by slavery are not the mass of Jewish people still alive. The holocaust may have left orphans or relatives. But I have never heard of a descendant of a slave or orphan of another race or religion demanding compensation so loudly (correct me if I'm wrong). Loud? Yes, but if not factual, why would Bayer, and VW, and Switzerland have complied so quickly and then offered apologies? Quote Quote I think the Jewish people in Israel are as much terrorists as are the Palestinians there. Nope, terrorist attack civillians, like the Palestininas do, Israel is sending forces to capture the ones who would do so, please view earlier post. Quote That doesn't surprise me in the least, that that's what you were led to believe. Small children and babies would fall under the terrorist category then, I suppose. People who were murdered because the wrong house was hit,or because it's better to bomb that house, just in case a terrorist is inside. No, it is not better to just bomb a house, but a misdropped/thrown bomb that is called collateral damage, not a target, alwas a very regrettable accident, but not the way terrorist see it. Quote The horrors are slowly reaching Europe, and people are starting to see through the lies. I was under the impression that they had always been there, just not that publicized, the global press, still likes Europe. Quote It is very easy to hide the enemy's suffering and only show that of your friends'. Not in this country, just ask the soldiers and or the anti-war protesters from the Vietnam era, our press has some rather great freedoms Both sides have terrorists, but also "normal" people. I have met several Jewish and Palestinian Israeli citizens over the past few years, including this year. Both were of that opinion. There is even a group of Jewish women who call themselves Women in Black, that stand in the streets to protest for that cause once a week. The Israeli govt IS a very conservative one, which does fall under the religiously extremist/fanatic imho. That doesn't necessarily reflect the opinions of the Jewish Israelis. Quote [qoute]If you see the Israeli map of 1967 and compare it to today's map, you will probably be shocked. Which one are you refering to the one before or after they were suddenly attacked? Does that matter at that point? If they were "thrown into the sea", the UN would have stepped in. The boundaries were broken several times. Quote Jewish Israel is now way, and I mean way larger that it was when it was first devided. Fine, by me, be the agressor and lose the contest, you don't really have much to comlpain about. Don't start trouble, there will not be trouble. Quote Quote I think the only way the Israel conflict will ever stop is if clear boundaries are set, which will hopefully be implemented by 2005. I ws under the impression that there already were pretty strict lines, but one side, does not like them. Pick a fight, loose, deal with it Quote Wrong impression. Well at least in the effect that those lines weren't pushed over and over again. If there were clear lines, it probably wouldn't have come to what it has today. But who is doing the pushing? Quote There is an effort being made to recreate a state Palestine. You are correct, but who is pushing that idea the strongest? The US maybe? Israel is supposed to get devided to form a new Israel and a new Palestine. Quote Quote The children are very well informed about their history. If you've ever been to Germany, you will see that bright and clear if you bring up the subject. I honestly don't know who told you this fabricated tale. Just some German Foreign exchange students back in 1998 at my University who were extremely surprised by the lack of information that they had been handed growing up No one really Quote You can't force lazy scholars to be good in a school subject. That has nothing to do with whether it is taught. Very, true, I hope that maybe I fall into the category of the un-lazy scholar Quote We, do try, and show me a country who has done as much in 226 years of existance to right the worlds wrongs and I will owe you a beer or two Does Ancient Egypt qualify But I don't like beer anyway How about a shot of tequilla?And Gentlemen that is it for me today, my fingers are way too tired to continue this discussion right now, if you will all excuse me, I think that I will adjourn and go back to posting about BOOBIESedit to say: DAMN that was long and whomever reads through it all... YOU DA MAN!!! I'm not afriad of dying, I'm afraid of never really living- Erin Engle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
QuickDraw 0 #162 December 1, 2002 This Break was Brought to you by: QuickDraw =- -- Hope you don't die. -- I'm fucking winning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unlucky1 0 #163 December 1, 2002 Hey brother...sorry it took so long to take your back, but work called. I myself support you wholeheartedly. It seems as the bleeding heart liberals have nothing better to do than to nitpick and throw out false information about the U.S. and her commendable history. Sure is weird that the people who seem to be the least educated about America are the same people who reside outside our beloved U.S. They have no idea what patriotism is. If America is so bad....why is everybody trying to move into our little area of the world? I myself refuse to type any lengthy message that will be nitpicked to death by a bunch of people from other nations that "depend" on U.S. assistance everytime something brews up in their country...(i.e. hunger, disease, war, economy problems, etc.). I think i will become President and that way I can snub everybody that ever gave us the finger. The U.S. earned that right. Its a shame how we go out of our way to support other nations before we support our own starving, poor residents first. Its not so much a shame that we help these nations to survive...but that in the end...they snub us and talk down to us. As for the worst offenders on this discussion about the greatness of the U.S.....don't worry Quartorze....they seem to support the terrorists so much that they will probably strap an explosive on their own belly and then we don't have to listen to them anymore. SEMPER FI Aggie, Quartorze, and every other patriotic American. God Bless. I refuse to acknowledge any other unappreciative individual on this post. GOD BLESS THE U.S.A. ! ! ! ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #164 December 1, 2002 Hi, Nadine Thanks for responding. Quote I mean that they are still complaining about WW2. half a century later. after they were given a state that was just created like that. You mean, after Israel was declared a state in 1947, and have had serious diffuculty maintaining that state? You mean, they shouldn't have been given a state, or that the on-going battle for their existence? I'm not sure about what the whining part is here. Please clarify for me? As for the complaining part, the Holocaust survivors I know have not complained to me...but have done what they could do to deal with the continuing issues years in concentration camps have left them with. The complaints I hear are more to the effect of "you don't eat enough, bubbis...have another plate". The tributes to those who were murdered are, imho, intensely moving and very appropriate. When you consider that 6 million jews were killed, and many millions more affected, I don't think a few tributes, memorials and compensation to those survivors is inappropriate. QuoteBut maybe my point may be misunderstood. I have nothing against Jews as Jews, and I should add that I was not talking about the majority, but the obvious and loud speaking part. I think I did misunderstand you. Jews should be quiet and not stand up for themselves and their existence? (See, I don't think you're saying this, so I must've misunderstood you.) QuoteBut I do have something against the Jews that use their Judaism as a means of gaining power, money or whatever else they want to gain by that. Do you feel the same about the Japanese who were recompensed from the American pocket? Do you feel the same about the American Indians? How about the blacks in America? They all have/are trying to use their "whateverness" to garner financial remuneration from me. How do you feel about that? And what about you feel about the Catholics using their Catholicness/Catholic power to supress illegal incidents as pertains to their clergy? Etc. Quote I think probably a real Jew would not act that way, same as a real Moslem for instance wouldn't commit acts of terrorism. What's a real jew? Or a real muslim for that matter? QuoteIt is just the ones that make the headlines that catch our attention the most, and about whom we seem to generalize. I try really hard to not generalize. Yes, I fall short of that mark on a regular basis. So, if it's the headlines that you object to, to which headlines are you referring? Again, just looking for clarification. QuoteAnd so my statement was not clear, for that I appologize. Hope that was clear and not even more confusing. I must've had too much turkey, 'cause I'm still not seeing your point. Will you please try again? I'd appreciate it. I will admit, I have a personal visceral reaction to some of your statements. I would not like to think you believe that my father, for example, has ever used his jewishness to garner special benefits. Nor would I like to think that you believe that Jews, in fighting back, are out of line for doing so. I don't think you really believe that Saul, one man for whom I worked, used his little blue numbers to gather sympathy from a group of people. And I certainly hope you don't believe that something as significant as the brutal murders of 6,000,000 people, some whose skin ended up as lampshades, are complaining about it superficially, and without significant memories of a war which was more evil than could've been imagined. Putting my growing apprehension aside, I would ask please to try to explain again for me your position on the Jews. I really would appreciate it. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #165 December 2, 2002 Well I just came back from the Thanksgiving Boogies and low and behold..this madness continues. Here is the short and sweet: The US has it's share of bones in the closet, what country doesn't? Everything in life is about perspectives. If I remember correctly ,this thread started out on a slightly different topic than what is currently being debated. The cold hard truth is that it's a cruel world, always has been and will continue to be so long after we're gone. If your one of the folks opposed to the war because of the oil issue I say to you. Stop using products/byproducts manufactured from oil. Life should be just peachy in your mud hut as you eat your curd and whey. I totally disapprove of bringing the "whining Jews" (blue shrews words) topic into this discussion. Save that shit for your Klan/white power BBs. It has nothing to do with what was originally being talked about. Service memebers have more than one perspective. They are the ones there, doing the deeds and seeing things in person AND they get to come home and see what society and what really drives society, the media has portrayed on the nightly news. As far as blending in or understanding a countries mentality is concerned,( I understand this and know what was trying to be conveyed) you don't need to know all those facets in order to understand poverty, hunger , disease or oppression. It's a sick world and there will always be a need for those of my profession, wheather you agree or not. I wash my hands of this topic/thread as it has digressed to the point of being so far off topic that it's futile to contiue with the current diatribe. For those that wish to continue this topic, I will be in Eloy from X-mas to the 3rd. Find me and we can talk about it in person "It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #166 December 2, 2002 QuoteExcuse me for not mentioning wars 2 centuries ago. No, I will not excuse you. This is a classic case of omitting information to perpetuate a political or social doctrine bent on denial. This is evident by your "two centuries" remark -- still, to the end, stretching the truth, warping history and manipulating the language. QuoteMy point is, if WW3 breaks out, how worried are you going to be about your life and your family's life as compared to someone who lives closer to that region ... ? I live 8 miles from a nuclear power plant, and the same distance from a major US Marine base, less than 50 miles from a USAF base, same too with a significant US Naval ammunition depot, and am within 80 miles of five (5) major airports, serving nationwide and International routes. I think about 9/11 every day. I think about what could happen, how, when, where...and how I hope to react. My immediate family are in similar geographical situations. I knew three people at the WTC, one of them was a good friend. A relative was just getting out of her car at the Pentagon when it was hit, and I had several relatives that were with our Department of State, in Bonn, when Germany was still two countries (a result of European enlightened diplomatic abilities), one of whom endured the Berlin Airlift. So, in response to your "how worried are you going to be about your life and your family's life as compared to someone who lives closer.." My answer is I think about it every day. All of us were touched by it, and I know that I will be able to play whatever role is required of me if I ever have to face that day. Countries like Iraq, Iran, North Korea, Syria (and others still in my opinion) cannot mount an all-out offensive against us, even if they wanted to. But, they have the money to support the likes of 20 men who killed 3000 of my countrymen (that's a kill ratio of 150:1). Those numbers are far more effective through terrorist operations against our civilians. QuoteBut maybe Bush is just blowing off gas...? I for one, sure hope so, even though I will be the last to support the Iraqi regime. You better hope G. W. Bush is not simply blowing off steam. There's a reason why the UN Security Council vote was unanimous, and it wasn't simply a bunch of diplomatic "favors" being handed our by our government. They are seeing things that we do not know, recognizing patterns of information that we've not seen. Quote... if WW3 breaks out... It probably won't happen here, you're right. What does that tell you about our little corner of the world? We are a country which is composed of a mish-mash of people from everywhere. We have our disputes. We have our scandals. We still talk about JFK. To the point, we have had a long standing dispute with Canada over Maritime boundaries (Beaufort Sea, Dixon Entrance, etc). You haven't seen anyone lobbing shells or planes at each other. The last thing I want to see is our boys go to war...sh*t, I jump with a lot of folks that are active military...I've not seen them around the dropzone lately, I sure would like to see them come home. The last major dispute in Europe resulted in the deaths of 300,000 Muslims in the former Yugoslavia. Prior to that, Czechoslovakia fell to the USSR/Warsaw Pact in 1968. Prior to that, Poland, Belgium fell to the Nazis and France was forced to surrender to Hitler in the same train car that forced the German surrender at the end of WWI.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bobsled92 0 #167 December 2, 2002 QuoteYou are confusing war with terrorism. And you are confusing a bunch of terrorists with whole nations. In fact, you seem pretty confused overall. I would like to know where I said I knew YOU, and where the post was that showed you some past experience beyond my knowledge. I do appreciate informed opinions and discussions, but your post conveys neither. Sorry if that sounds unfriendly, but the post just sound very immature and naive. Like something I would have written when I was 15. Your apology is accepted. My past is why I now choose a simple life in the present. Growing up in a life of active Para-military, I have experienced enough to say that I've seen alot of pain in the World. I've also learned that I no longer have to tolerate certain things or people. Sarajevo, Columbia, North Africa, & the Opium field of Thailand. There are good and bad everywhere. Many here at DZ.com are very familiar with WAR. It is a sad World in which we live, thank you for reminding me that it's supposed to be dreadful for all._______________________________ If I could be a Super Hero, I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year. http://www.hangout.no/speednews/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blueshrew 0 #168 December 2, 2002 I am not quoting your post this time, as the length is getting ridiculous. -I don't think you believe that the US is the only state that was violently attacked in i the last 60 years. -The troops that are being sent to the Iraqi border are not MFOs. The UN team HAS been approved. And you did just answer my previous post about why there is still a decision of war (remember the oil thing?). -My point was (in regard to Jewish compensations): They have gotten loads in that respect, which I didn't say is wrong, or that one can ever compensate another one for what happened. But they have not been the only one mistreated in the past, and as you have said in reagrard to something else, there is a point where anyone will have to move on. Whatever race, nationality or religion. -You DO only see the Jewish Israeli side of events, as I gather from your post. The Palestinian Israeli side seems to only reach Europe. Can you honestly believe that a tank firing a bomb will not kill 10 times (probably more) more civilians than terrorists. It is not just one event involved, but just about every event. There ARE terrorists on both sides, whether one side is dressed as soldiers or not. And it is obviously easy to hide things in the US, too. If you're ever near or in Israel, you might meet "normal" Jewish as well as Palestinian Israelis. Ask them. both. -Again, I say, look at the maps. If the Jewish regions have multiplied, in which way would the pushing be going? -The US is involved in the 'Quartet', but I would not exactly say that it is the driving force behind it. -Tequila it is then Anyhting but beer, whisky and cachaca. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blueshrew 0 #169 December 2, 2002 Try sticking to the context of my post (or reading more of them), and not extracting a whole different meaning to it, then I will reply. The US BTW unfortunately is not the only country that has suffered a terrorsit attack in the last year or so. To unlucky: Yeees, it is so convenient to say things like: you have sympathy with terrorists, or you're just jealous, or something as rediculous, when you don't agree with someone, and don't really know how else to reply. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blueshrew 0 #170 December 2, 2002 Hi Michele, second attempt: first a reply: Israel was declared a state, but it was created "on top" of another state (this is not a point I care to be pro or contra at the moment, so take it as it is, which is what happened). It has been battling forever, but have you ever seen it lose any land? so much for fighting for its existence. But I do see your point. And if you are of that opinion, then I would be surprised it you were not of the opinion that Palestinians also are fighting for their existence. At this point in time, both fighting parties are plain WRONG to do so, at this point, there is no bad/good anymore. There are "normal" people of both races/religions that do get along, but they are not as interesting for the media, I suppose. Apart from the "war regions", people in Israel seem to be seeing it on the news, like anyone sitting in another country. Don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. Seen them, talked to them, seen that they disapprove of the violence. I am talking about both Jewish and Palestinian Israeli citizens living among other places in Eilat e.g. I am of the opinion that the only valid argument in this case would be to support the Quartet, and hope that this will finally bring peace. Now the explanation: You have yourself said, that you haven't heard holocaust survivers complain to YOU. Those are probably what I would classify as real Jews, maybe the choice of words here was misleading. My point was, which I wrote in a previous post: at some point you have to move on. I never said that it is bad or anything but fair that they received the lot, but at some point, and I think we are there now, the world DOES understand and have respect. I as a woman do not still have to stand up for myself, because I am a woman, that fight is history, I stand as a person. I have not known one person to seriously judge me because I'm a woman, and there is not one thing or right I was denied because I am woman. I laugh at the super emances, because they spend more time arguing their rights than actually taking them. So my point in the end is, that I think that fight is also over (and Israel is a totally different issue now), but when will it stop being an issue we get worked up on? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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