Tangled in the lines?

[kelly.fischer 0]

first off im still new to this community both on and offline. im a brand new student and just wanted to run acouple questions by and get some peoples opinions.

starting off with, im curious about being tangled in the lines. sorry, is my termanology wrong?

you know? the long (generally white) cords connecting your pack to the shute.

while in my solo course and disscussing the emergency senerios we disscussed abit on the topic of a diver becomming entangled in their lines and how this is a emergency/malfunction senerio. but our instructor didnt show us any pictures or video examples of a diver/line entanglement. for me to be able to understand the situation better, im wondering if anyone out there has links to video or photo's of diver/line entanglement senerios.

what im having trouble understanding is,(and i supose it depends on the degree of entanglement) how is a jumper supose to get out of the tangle? if entangled and unable to untangle, would it be safe to release your reserve? what is the best way to avoid entanglement? what is the likelyhood of an entanglement?

now mabey this has a pathetically obvious answer, and i definatly dont like feeling like a idiot, and being surrounded by more-experianced-jumpers-then-me i feel intimidated; but i wont let that stop me from asking questions, even if im made to feel stupid. once i have something, ive got it. but untill i 'have it' my life is on the line and i want to learn as much as possible.

any help on my line-entanglement enquireies would be apreciated.

thanks ^^

[DSE 3]

It's not a stupid question, and it's one that is fair to ask. That said, I don't believe it happens to students given the methods of instruction, taught body position, etc. You should have covered this in your First Jump Course, but it's unlikely that you will receive deep instruction on this scenario, simply because you have other things you need to be learning.
Others will explain it better, but it's not easy to get feet/legs tangled in lines by nature of how your container opens, body position, etc.
Talk to your instructors first hand, it's *always* best to talk to someone who can see your face, comprehend your concerns, and know whether they're explaining it clearly and measuring the depth of their explanation with your ability to take it all in.
*Don't* be intimidated by more experienced jumpers around you. They once were newbies too. If your instructors or the upjumpers around you make you feel intimidated, then look for other jumpers at the DZ that don't make you feel this way. If you can't find any people there that are willing to talk, bring some beer. That'll always get them talking.

[airtwardo 6]

now maybe this has a pathetically obvious answer, and i definitely don't like feeling like a idiot, and being surrounded by more-experienced-jumpers-then-me i feel intimidated; but i wont let that stop me from asking questions, even if I'm made to feel stupid. once i have something, Ive got it. but until i 'have it' my life is on the line and i want to learn as much as possible.

Quote

There are NO stupid questions...!

How you handle an entanglement varies with the severity of the entanglement and your experience level.

The short answer is to YES deploy the reserve, but that being said you should really ask your instructor, in detail, ANY and ALL questions you have regarding emergency procedures.

Don't even for a second feel intimidated or shy, that's what they're there for...you NEED to learn and asking questions is the least painful way!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[piisfish 135]

if you register on www.skydivingmovies.com you can check my "helmet entanglement" movie.

This is a malfunction which happened to me last year and which is very unlikely to happen, specially if you have "regular" equipment (no video helmet, standard bridle etc) and if you open your parachute as you were taught.

Discussions on the incidents forum.

!Warning! the video IS (very) scary !

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[jojo69 0]

Hello Kelly,
I think I know how you feel about being intimidated about asking questions around the DZ. I was the only female and I was the only person who had not not jumped (with the military). The first jump course felt like I was taking it in a foreign language. Also, this sport also tends to be male dominated.

Take a deep breath and sit down with one of your instructors (the one who you feel you trust the most) and explain that you need a little more time to grasp the different concepts. Your life depends on it.

Women tend to learn differently then men (we use landmarks, they use the compass). We also tend to step back when intimidated and men tend to step forward.

Get to know the females on your DZ. Look around, we are out there.

[hukturn 0]

There are stupid questions but this is not one of them.
You probably did not get to see an entanglement video sample because the complexity of recreating this would be extremely difficult. Not actually recreating, but resolving the problem would be too difficult to risk making a video.
Just like anything else, the probability of encountering this problem is realitive to how you are skydiving. If you introduce the possibility, then there is greater probability. I don't know if they still teach this, but try to remeber these three things;
Pull - under any circumstances, pull prior to impact.
Pull at the proper altitude.
Pull stable.
These days, stability is also realative. With freeflying, skysurfing, and all of the relaed place you an a body position whch may not be chest to earth. In many instances, you can pull in these body positions, but in introduce greater possibility for problems. So, when I state "stable", I mean chest to earth. If you are stable, you are in a body position that is most likely to avoid entangelement. Avopid wearing things which may induce entanglement, such as speed lace hooks on boots.

[durandt 0]

Hi Kelly,

Welcome. I'm also new (10 SL progression jumps) and had (still have) the same fear re entanglement with lines etc which is possible with unstable openings (us students don't have camera sights, screws, etc to worry about). I respect the experienced skydivers at our DZ for not only having vast experience (many 5000+ jumps) but on their always being willing to share.

I started by printing out and read every article on this valuable website and all the fatalities and incidents i could lay my hands on. This gives you a very good foundation and understanding. Lowturns by far hurt many experienced skydivers. Collisions also feature but with our busses we should steer clear from pro area. Violent spins with small canopies is also some way off for us.

On every jump I am nervous in a controlled way rehearsing emergency procedure, etc. On my first 3sec freefall i looked down whilst pulling which dropped a shoulder and induced my body to turn whilst my main was opening. Result = some line twists but not unstable opening. Next 5 sec ff i backflipped but recovered (instinctively) for a stable opening on time. My friend on his 3 sec opened whilst on his back and everything went great but it is possible to have a series of cock-up's if unstable.

I have now decided after a long talk (via mail) with a very senior skydiver to go the AFF route to ensure i have stability every time or recover quickly should i not be stable for some reason. He says do not try doing all things right - practice not doing anything wrong (-:

It's your life so be sure you are informed.

B S D

[billvon 2,417]

>how is a jumper supose to get out of the tangle?

The 'standard' answer is try twice, then cutaway/reserve. It's bad to deploy your reserve into a towed main - it's worse to hit the ground under a towed main.

However, slight differences exist. Ask your instructor how to deal with this in your program. He/she will likely refer to this as a "horseshoe malfunction."

>what is the best way to avoid entanglement?

Pull stable. If you have a hand deploy throw it away forcefully, and do not hang onto it.

[riggerrob 558]

... but our instructor didn't show us any pictures or video examples of a diver/line entanglement.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

He had a hard time finding video because students rarely entangle with their suspension lines.
If you concentrate on holding a good arch during deployment, you will never suffer an entanglement.

[hukturn 0]

He probably does not have any video/pictures to show you. Because a simulation to get a video/still would place someone in a very dire, needless position. Entangelents are very bad. It is easy to simulate other malfunctions by strapping on a third (chest mounted) parachute. You intentionallypack the malfunction and still have two more parachutes. You can not do this with entangelemnts. I think that the USAPT did some simulated entanglement videos in Yuma, AZ. Maybe you could ask them.
Try;
www.goldenknights.com

[filip0721 0]

I'm fairly new to the sport myself but have already seen two entanglements one only in the lines and one in the actual main. Both were new FJC students one was a close friend of mine which was on his 3rd jump doing SL progression. His exit from a 206 cessna was akward, not horrible nor great but his problem was instead of keeping a wide arch on exit he brought his arms in above his head. When the SL pulled the D bag out of the container his right arm got tangled in the right side lines and pulled the risers together causing extreme line twists and this pulled the canopy completely to one side and cause very was 360 spirals. At that point the force of the spins pulled the lines taut and he had lots of trouble pulling his right arm out. After 4 rotations or so he freed his arm and was able to cut away and deploy is reserve Thank God! unfortunately that shook him up to much and he hasn't returned since. The other was a student that had a spectacularly bad exit and ended up barrel rolling into his lines and pulling the main around himself. He was actually able to get the main off himself and deploy his reserve 300' above the ground Thank God again!!!!

I am not extremely experience but have learned because of these incidents very quickly that as a student your exit is crucial in having a safe dive. Push off and arch hard!!

Good luck with your progression.
Wow that was long!

[virgin-burner 1]

perfect reasoning why to go with AFF instead..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[filip0721 0]

Doing AFF though is very dependent on the person though IMHO. The sensory overload that you experience is very strong and can easily over power your responses that you were trained for. I actually appreciate doing the SL progression now on to freefall and almost done the SOLO but the slightly slower pace then the AFF allows me time to take in a lot of information rather then having it crammed into my head through AFF but thats just dependent on the person. Though AFF would have been faster for me LOL. Oh well

[popsjumper 2]

Kelly,
Let me add my $0.02 to those that have already said:
There IS no stupid question with respect to gaining skydiving knowledge.

Suggestion:
1. Take control of your learning. Get over the shyness and speak your mind...ask the questions and everybody else be damned. Only the most idiotic fools would look down on you for asking ANY question related to your skydiving safety and to those people you can say, "Screw you".

Getting entangled in your parachute and/or lines (horshoe malfunction) is most skydivers worst nightmare. It is, IMHO, by far and away the most dangerous situation. It is, however, easily preventable with stable body position and, if you use a throw-out system, a good aggressive throw at deployment.

The good news is that horseshoe malfunctions are getting more and more rare for students due to the emphasis on training good, stable body position on deployment.

To answer your question, if after trying your ass off to disentangle yourself you are still entangled at your decision altitude (2500 ft), then deploy the reserve and hope for the best.

Now, having said that, please do as others have already suggested and go back to your instructors and pin them down until they have answered your questions to the point that you completely understand...not partially but completely.

*Waring: Piisfish's video is very scary. The good news is that it involves an experienced jumper with camera gear and not a naked (so to speak) student.

As an aside, I'm surprised that your instructors apparently didn't cover this malfunction very well with you during FJC.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239