5 terror attacks in 2 days

[billvon 2,434]

> I think these two Bush quotes you used out of context to smear
>the man bring forth an interesting point.

The context was his feelings on the importance of finding Bin Laden. They were exactly IN context. Out of context would be if I quoted him saying "I want to kill that guy" but claimed he was referring to Bin Laden when he was actually referring to Hussein.

Also note that quoting someone is different than smearing them. "Joe is an idiot" is a smear. A quote is simply what they said.

I think you are right concerning modern media. It's easier to see when people change their stance on something. I have no problem with people changing their stance on things; I've done that more than once (my position on nuclear power for example.) I do have a problem with people doing that then claiming consistency in their positions. Nowadays that's easy to disprove.

>Hans Blix could search there for years and not find anything.

It's starting to look like we could, too - and this time we don't have an evil dictator playing shell games with his weapons. Time will tell. We've already pulled out our primary WMD search team.

[wmw999 2,148]

Thanks for this reply to a post, rather than a gratuitous attack on the poster with a statement of dogma, in among the other stuff.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rgoper 0]

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Bush won the first count. Bush won the recount. He won the re-recount. Bush won the non-binding independent[sic] recount conducted after the Florida Kangaroo court let Kathy Harris certify the election (we can talk about this judicial activism atrocity on another thread if you like). Tell me - exactly what vote count in Florida did Bush lose? (Overall; don't embarrass yourself by pointing out that certain precincts voted for Gore; we all know that I'm referring to the overall state).

i'm referring to the very first count, you know where Al Gore was declared the winner on all of the television stations? it's either one gigantic coincidence, or was it just by happenstance that Wyatt's brother Morgan was govenor of the "deciding state?" by the way, i voted for ol' Wyatt, and Wyatt Sr. and haven't learned yet. when ol' Wyatt Sr. was elected and made the infamous comment "read my lips, there will be no new taxes" and exactly 14 days later raised them anyway, the economy went to hell. what exactly are you inferring here? that the republicans come in and set everything up for the democrats, and the economy justs takes off all by itself because of the republicans taking such great measures? i think not. when "Slick Willie" was in office, the dow was over 10,000 almost every day, now we've been at all time historical lows, but, that was nice of the republicans to set ol' Willie up like that, sure made him look good, now they have to do it all over again. wondering aloud, how much did that idiodical trip to the "Abraham Lincoln" costs the us taxpayer? biggest PR scheme i've seen in a long time. make your excuses for ol' Wyatt, he needs citizens like yourself.

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You should travel more.

i've got over 60,000 air miles this year alone, why don't you travel some?

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[TheAnvil 0]

SkyDekker, I did not absolve Bush of all responsibility. Nor do I hold that the economy would be booming had that strike not taken place - better, absolutely, but booming, no. The strike's effect on the economy is an inarguable fact of life - use your noggin' a bit. That's why those longshoremen make so much in the first place - one of several reasons anyway.

1) Economy is on the downturn before Bush elected. Can we at LEAST agree there?

2) Bush elected. I'm libertarian, but he got my vote. Unlike his predecessor, he inherited an economy headed downwards. Tax cut to be phased in over several years is passed.

3) 9-11. Economy takes one hell of a sucker punch.

4) 1 Jan 2002. For those of you who don't know, the President Elect spends his entire first year in office under the last budget of the previous administration.

http://w3.access.gpo.gov/usbudget/

The above link might help those doubting Thomases.

5) 8 October 2002. Taft-Hartley invoked to get the longshorement back to work.

6) Present. Not even half of Bush's original tax cuts have phased in. We're still down economically and need a kick start - such as accelerating the original tax cut plan.

We're through about 1.5 Bush budgets, with at least two more to go. The first tax cut is being phased in and will hopefully be accelerated. We're going to improve it later this year and next year, which is bad news to leftists across the nation seeking to knock conservatives out of office in '04.

If you hold that companies who import and/or export goods were not harmed by the ILWU strike then go talk with some people and learn a little bit about the business. The truckers they employ suffered as well as their own employees. Those who import/export perishables/food were hit extremely hard. Add litigation/insurance claims into the mix and you get a hefty chunk of change for a business. Their employees and stockholders all suffered. If you think that doesn't hurt the economy, well, that's your opinion and you're welcome to it. I find it untenable.

Let go of that irrational Bush hatred there partner! Do some more transcendental meditation or something.

Beers and moon-pies,

Vinny the Anvil

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[billvon 2,434]

>The first tax cut is being phased in and will hopefully be accelerated.

Excellent quote from Warren Buffet today, who, one would imagine, knows a little something about money:
---------------
Instead of the Senate's tax cut plan, Buffett proposed that it provide tax reductions to those who need and will spend the money in the form of a Social Security tax "holiday" or a tax rebate to lower-income people.

"Putting $1,000 in the pockets of 310,000 families with urgent needs is going to provide far more stimulus to the economy than putting the same $310 million in my pockets," Buffett added.
---------------

[bodypilot90 0]

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Buffett proposed that it provide tax reductions to those who need and will spend the money in the form of a Social Security tax "holiday" or a tax rebate to lower-income people.

Top 50% of Wage Earners Pay 96.09% of Income Taxes. I need my money just as much as the "lower-income people".

[kallend 1,648]

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Buffett proposed that it provide tax reductions to those who need and will spend the money in the form of a Social Security tax "holiday" or a tax rebate to lower-income people.

Top 50% of Wage Earners Pay 96.09% of Income Taxes. I need my money just as much as the "lower-income people".

What happens when you include Social Security and Medicaid taxes? These are both highly regressive.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[TheAnvil 0]

TV stations make those calls based on voter exit polls - not counted votes. I was watching that and felt they ALL made the call way to soon. Linking the Bush brothers to that is absolute lunacy. I can link Diane Feinstein to the KKK in a more logical fashion.

If you want to talk about the dow post a nice chart showing it's course with administrations, tax cuts, whose budget was in effect in what year and etc clearly delineated. It'll be an educational experience for all. You are correct, however, The DOW was up during the Clinton years. Nice dot com bubble - and many other things - which burst.

IRT to your miles - I'm happy you've traveled so much this year. Now talk with some people about their feelings about the US and Americans and learn a bit. Everyone does NOT hate us, as you asserted previously.

For my own travels, I've hit every continent except Antartica and can't speak a lick of penguin. I do speak several languages with varying levels of proficiency and lived overseas for a bit. Met a lot of people and found that everywhere I went, some folks liked America, some folks hated America, and some folks couldn't give a rat's ass.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[TheAnvil 0]

The Buffet-meister does know $$. That's for sure.

Though I liked Bush's first tax cut plan, I do not in any way support the current one. If the leftists in the Senate would argue against it in a rational matter, they'd have me as an ally for once.

Instead, they're screaming 'tax cuts for the rich', 'we can't afford a tax cut' (though they can afford a national health care system? gimme a break), 'repeal the evil Bush tax cuts' (most of which haven't gone into effect yet), and their normal childish, puerile jibberish. Dear Lord dude, it's insanity that such inanity is the vanguard of their argument!

I think this elimination of the double taxation of dividends blurs the line between a corporation and LLC. The double taxation of dividends is the penalty stockholders pay for having no tort/criminal liability for actions taken by the corporation. Not so for an LLC or sole proprietorship, in which partners/owners ARE liable. Can you imagine the legal battles that are about to ensue over this? The # of LLCs about to enjoy corporate benefits as soon as they incorporate after this goes into effect? It ticks me off that NOBODY on the national stage from EITHER party has pointed this out - that I know of.

My own ideal tax system is a flat income tax of about 10-12% in conjunction with a national retail sales tax. This could only work if a lot of deductions and loopholes were closed as well, but I like the idea in theory/the abstract. Don't think it would ever pass, but it's a nice thought.

Instead, I think to jumpstart ye olde economy we should accelerate the original Bush tax cut a bit, then eliminate the taxes US corporations pay on overseas income. The US is the ONLY industrialized nation I know of that taxes overseas earnings - this is one of the reasons/incentives corporations have for moving their corporate headquarters offshore. It helps them to remain competitive in the international market.

Alas, the left does not have me as an ally in this case because of their method of argument. I encourage everyone I talk politics with to add 'who pay most of the taxes' onto the end of 'tax cuts for the rich' everytime they hear the phrase - just so they can put things in context. When they stop this childishness and grow up - I'll take them seriously.

That aside, good point Bill! It has some merit, but I have been and will always will be against income redistribution, which is exactly what a tax rebate to lower income people is (I grew up in that tax bracket in Appalachia and feel for them, don't get me wrong). Buffet has proposed a Social Security tax holiday with no reduction in SS benefits - and the program is already enroute to insolvency. That makes me wonder about the viability of such a thing. But when Buffet talks, it's good to listen and hear what he has to say. It would be unlike him not to have taken that into consideration.

Keep 'em comin' Bill! You make life interesting. This IS something to ponder.

Beers to all,

Vinny the Anvil

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[rgoper 0]

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Now talk with some people about their feelings about the US and Americans and learn a bit. Everyone does NOT hate us, as you asserted previously.

i've already done this for quite some time. i work with every culture, nationality you can imagine, as my work is in Saudi-Arabia. i have talked to just about everyone who will talk about it, and most of them have their own ways of referring to us ie: ugly americans, spoiled bastads, american evil, enemies from the west, whoremongers, drunks, immoral...should i keep going? let's face it, other nations have really never taken a real shine to us, because we are predominately wealthier, and better educated, we just don't adhere to their more subdued behaviour. i dare you to try and cross the causeway at Bahrain and Saudi-Arabia with a bottle of booze, or a playboy magazine, they hate that kind of stuff. we're really not popular with the French right now either, or the North Koreans...need i continue? i think not, point made.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[billvon 2,434]

>Though I liked Bush's first tax cut plan, I do not in any way support the
>current one. If the leftists in the Senate would argue against it in a
>rational matter, they'd have me as an ally for once.

I feel the same way. The current proposal sucks, but no one has proposed a better one. Lately it seems like there are no leaders among the democrats whatsoever - they either complain about Bush hoping to get democratic support or go along with some plan of his hoping to ride on his popularity. They no longer have a platform of their own; they just react to the GOP.

At this point, though, the deficit is getting so large (and we're spending so much so quickly) that I think a tax cut of that proportion is going to be economic suicide. Despite what some think, we really just can't print money to make up the difference in what we take in vs what we spend. Wars require sacrifices both from servicemen who fight (and die) in them, and from the people who support them with their taxes. The bill for this war on terror is coming due; we're not going to be able to dodge it.

>My own ideal tax system is a flat income tax of about 10-12% in
>conjunction with a national retail sales tax.

I would go for that, although I'd be even happier with a plain old sales tax. Give exemptions to the poor for food and clothing; everyone else pays a flat 30% (or whatever) tax.

>but I have been and will always will be against income redistribution
> which is exactly what a tax rebate to lower income people is.

I agree in theory, but in practice I'm not willing to let thousands of US citizens starve because of that theory. You pay for the poor one way or another (or you let them die.) Income tax breaks are one way to help keep them fed. I much prefer them to direct subsidies - letting the poor keep all their money makes a lot more sense to me than taking a third of it then paying some bureaucrats to give a tenth of it back in the form of direct aid. Given that, I think our current system of graduated taxation is pretty fair.

>Buffet has proposed a Social Security tax holiday with no reduction
> in SS benefits - and the program is already enroute to insolvency.

That makes more sense to me than a tax cut with an _increase_ in government spending (homeland security etc.) I think both plans make some pretty shaky assumptions.

[billvon 2,434]

>Top 50% of Wage Earners Pay 96.09% of Income Taxes. I need my
>money just as much as the "lower-income people".

You're seriously proposing that Warren Buffett needs that extra $310 million as much as a poor family needs $1000? That's a stretch even for you.

[billvon 2,434]

>and if Slick willie would have done his JOB instead of a diffrent kind of
>JOB old Bin would have been dead or in jail.

Yep. Too bad Clinton wasn't able to stop a terrorist that Reagan funded - and it's really too bad that Bush just plain gave up on trying to capture him once it became difficult.

[AggieDave 6]

Bill,

Just b/c the media doesn't cover it anymore, doesn't mean we've stopped hunting for him!

I would have thought a guy like you would have more sources then that, and a broader view then that!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[billvon 2,434]

>Just b/c the media doesn't cover it anymore, doesn't mean we've stopped hunting for him!

We _are_ still hunting for him; I didn't say we weren't. I just said that Bush had given that particular priority up. His own words once again:

"I don't know where he is. I have no idea and I really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
George Bush, 3/13/02

So you'd have to take your argument up with him. I hope we continue to make him a very big priority, our president's words notwithstanding.

[AggieDave 6]

So you're also trying to say that the severe defense cutbacks that Clinton did, didn't effect the current state we're in, and also the fact that our intellegence structure was practically given Bin Laden, then had to refuse him due to Clinton's policies, it's Bush's fault that it happened and Regan's fault for funding him when the world was fundamentally different.

Before you say it wasn't different, please name the major change that began in 1989...oh, yeah, the fall of communism...

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[billvon 2,434]

> So you're also trying to say that the severe defense cutbacks that Clinton did . . .

. . . were also a big problem. Yep, they were. However, showing Clinton was wrong (which he often was) does not mean that it was any more of a good idea to fund terrorists to kill Russians in the 80s, just as it's not a good idea for our current president to make finding Bin Laden a low priority. Some things transcend partisan politics, and the security of our nation should be one of them.

[FallRate 0]

[Judge from "My Cousin Vinny" voice] "rgoper...are you on drugs!? [/Judge from "My Cousin Vinny" voice]

FallRate

[tbrown 26]

I don't think the bombers speak for most Palestinians. There was a recent opinion poll taken among Palestinians that for the first time, ever shows an admittedly slim majority (but nonetheless a majority) of them want Hamass brought under control and the bombing to stop.

The bombers are a minority who are determined to destroy any hope of peace. The challenge to you and the Palestinians is whether you're going to let them do that, because both your people will be diminished until you do.

Most of us in the US consider Arafat to be an asshole, but we don't see Sharon helping anything either. All the guy knows how to do is shoot people and that's not an original or helpful idea.

The Israelis and Palestinians are going to have to figure out how to get along, or you're just going to go on killing each other. Isn't it time you both got serious about it, or would you both prefer to go on like this, with terror against your people and a military occupation (which sucks any way you look at it, just ask the Irish) against theirs. I can't believe that either of your peoples hasn't had enough of this. Rabin didn't say "hey, we can all be friends", he said "enough of bloodshed". And he was killed for it by his own people.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[TheAnvil 0]

Point proven? To whom? Yourself? Your Saudi buddies? Say 'ahfwan sayeed' and / or 'mahasalahma' - can't type in arabic here - to whomever you're talking with and talk with someone else.

I've been to Bahrain and Saudi - and Oman and UAE as well. The Saudi's are strict on that bridge. Too bad they sure as hell aren't the same way while they're in Bahrain. Hypocritical bastards. I've seen more Saudi sheiks drunk off of their asses arm in arm with Russian hookers in Bahrain than I saw camels at the camel races in Dubai. Speaking of Dubai, they've got a slew of east european hookers and boozing establishments all over the place. And a nice ice skating rink too - in the Hyatt I think. Iranians, Saudis, and folks from all around the world are there - in much larger diasporas than Riyadh. Hope a flight there and hang for a while dude - meet some more people.

Your 'better educated' comment is curious. Having been to Europe, Africa, Asia, Australia, lived in Japan for two years, South America, and all over North America, I'd say our educational system is probably one of the lousiest in the world. To illustrate, I met a fourteen year old kid in Zimbabwe doing his math homework while working in a shop near Arusha - series convergence, matrix/linear algebra, and probability, and his fifteen year old brother was starting into some basic calculus. Interested, I bought him lunch and shot the shit with him about school/math/etc. He learned more in his dirt floor school house than most Americans learn in high schools with power point projectors in every classroom. Wrote a nice letter of recommendation for him to my alma mater - GA TECH. Hope he gets over here. Smart kid, but he admitted he was one of the mediocre students in his class. Unbelievable. And lefties wonder why I don't favor the NEA or spending so much $$ on education. Anyway, I digress and don't believe your point on education one damn bit.

As for the French and North Korea - yep! They're pissed off at us. Have been for a while. I've been to South Korea a few times and found most folks over there like Americans - those of us that act civilized anyway. Met a few NK born folks when I was in China and found they were a bit reticent but didn't think too badly of the USA either, and nor did the Chinese as a general rule of thumb. We're never going to please everybody with our foreign policy and never should. Your assertion that 'everyone hates us' for this and that is utterly ludicrous and indefensible.

Beers,

Vinny the Anvil

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[falxori 0]

you speak in big words that have little grasp in reality.

sure, the ACTIVE terrorists are a minority and only they should (and mostly are) be targetted.
but so was the ba'ath party in Iraq, and so is the Ba'ath party in syria and even the king of jordan is a minority (but a good one )
the problem is that minority (Arafat included), setting the tone around here.

and to say "get along" and "don't let them stop the effort for peace" is good as words, not as actions when busses explode.

P.S
i refuse to accept the lowlife that killed Rabin as "one of my own", to me, he is as bad (if not worse) as any other terrorist.

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[TheAnvil 0]

Take a look at the deficit as a % of GDP dude. It's not the largest ever - gotta add that inflation index in there, so GDP% is a better way to go than raw #'s in this case. Not something to ignore, but not an emergency either.

The many state deficits worry me more than the federal one right now anyway.

I'd be all for exempting gasoline and groceries from any National Retail Sales Tax (which I ONLY support in conjunction with a flat tax). As for income redistribution, I'm still against it - and I've eaten ramen noodles and thought them a feast while growing up.

SS is doomed and has been for years. Ever since they made the SS funds part of the general fund under Johnson. It's a good program that should be maintained, but needs drastic reform and I don't have a coherent plan to do it, though I've got some ideas.

My brain is still Kalman Filtering right now.

Hitting ye olde rack.

moose antlers and beers to all!

Vinny the Anvil

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[FallRate 0]

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The Israelis and Palestinians are going to have to figure out how to get along...

Here's an idea. What say the Palestinians and Israelis band together against the opportunists that have used them and this tragic conflict as a means to further their own myopic agendas for the past half-century? Great powers make for great peace.

It's an idea.

FallRate

[bodypilot90 0]

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And lefties wonder why I don't favor the NEA or spending so much $$ on education. Anyway, I digress and don't believe your point on education one damn bit.

It's the montra of the left. Money more money, the ills of education is because of money, tax money lots of tax money. Johnny can't read because the teacher can't beat his a$$ for misbehaving. You'll destroy his self esteem. it's not money they lack it's control.

[SkyDekker 1,145]

you know what Anvil, you say some interesting things but then you throw in stuff like:

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use your noggin' a bit

and

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Let go of that irrational Bush hatred there partner!

and

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Do some more transcendental meditation or something.

and you lose all credibility you built up before then. BTW, like I said in another thread, if I really hated some one I would come out and say it. I certainly support Bush in certain matters, but I have some serious doubts about others.

I guess in your world, if people do not agree with you they are stupid. Too bad you cannot have a discussion without that sentiment.