Main Canopies

[section5 0]

2 questions
1) why can't i get a solid answer when I ask "will a 230' main fit in my wings container (W31) that now holds a 260 safire2?"
2) I have 130 jumps. Lets cut to the chase. I can't imagine one canopy (for my level of experience) being much different from the next. Can anyone "de-cynic" me?

[likestojump 3]

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2 questions
1) why can't i get a solid answer when I ask "will a 230' main fit in my wings container (W31) that now holds a 260 safire2?"
2) I have 130 jumps. Lets cut to the chase. I can't imagine one canopy (for my level of experience) being much different from the next. Can anyone "de-cynic" me?

Does every 3liter engine produce the same amount of power and have the same fuel economy and durability ?

Canopies are built many different ways, using different materials and construction techniques. Being a 3D object they cannot be generecized by size only.

[NovaTTT 1]

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2 questions
1) why can't i get a solid answer when I ask "will a 230' main fit in my wings container (W31) that now holds a 260 safire2?"

Containers are not measured by parachute size, they are measured by pack volume. Parachutes of the same square footage do not necessarily have the same pack volume. Differences in measuring standards, construction, line type, for example, are causes for different pack volumes of the same sizes parachute.

Ask your rigger or call Sunrise and ask them if your specific 230 should fit into your W31.

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2) I have 130 jumps. Lets cut to the chase. I can't imagine one canopy (for my level of experience) being much different from the next. Can anyone "de-cynic" me?

You cannot imagine it specifically because of your lack of experience. Parachutes have different planforms and/or are built using different construction methods.

A low aspect ratio 190 will handle very differently than a high aspect ratio 190.

Same size parachtues, very different performance characteristics.

There are a number of resources out there you can obtain to increase your knowlege and in so doing increase your safety margin.

For starters, try The Skydiver's Handbook, Poynter's Parachute Manuals, The Parachute and Its Pilot.

If that doesn't decynicize you then you might want to consider a hobby in 10-pin.

Cheers!

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[councilman24 36]

Go here, http://www.pia.com/piapubs/TSDocuments/TS-104CanopyVolume.pdf and compare a New England Parachutes Challenger to a safire of about the same size.

Ooops! 50% bigger?

This is an extreme example.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[billvon 2,436]

>1) why can't i get a solid answer when I ask "will a 230' main fit in
>my wings container (W31) that now holds a 260 safire2?"

Because some 230 mains pack bigger than others. A 230 sq ft main with Dacron, for example, could easily pack up bigger than a 260 with 550 Spectra.

>2) I have 130 jumps. Lets cut to the chase. I can't imagine one canopy
>(for my level of experience) being much different from the next. Can
>anyone "de-cynic" me?

Probably not. But one of these days I suspect you'll demo a canopy and say "wow, this flies a lot better than that other 230!" However, any modern canopy design _can_ land you safely, and if that's your goal, then you will have a lot of options.

[gearless_chris 1]

Greg from UPT also said there's some variation in the container manufacturing, so two different V348's may not pack the same, even with the same canopies.

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

[section5 0]

I can see that in a high performance parachute. but a big docile safire? what is there to change?

[section5 0]

I appreciate the quick reply except for the final comment. my cynicism derifes from the fact that manufacturers of evrything/anything benefit from expanding there product lines. even if they are offering the same thing under a different name.

[section5 0]

ok, thanks

[section5 0]

well. maybe this is asking too much but would it kill the container mfgr. to tell the customer which canopy might fit better than the next and why?

[Scrumpot 1]

See post/reply to you #3 in this thread.

What NovaTTT said to you.
Including reiteration of the last comment.

You can choose to "get it", or choose to be defiant, abrasive (as for some strange reason you seem to want to be) & resist getting it. The choice it up to you.

These peeps have (all so far) provided you pretty concise answers/responses. The proper reply to them (if you wish to continue getting further replies/insights) - you might just want to consider - just may be "THANK YOU".

FWIW.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[billvon 2,436]

>well. maybe this is asking too much but would it kill the container mfgr.
>to tell the customer which canopy might fit better than the next and why?

Many do. For example, here:

http://www.miragesys.com/sizing-guide/

is the Mirage fit guide. It lists all their containers and what canopies will fit (and whether they will be tight or not.)

[JohnSherman 1]

Ok, seeing that I am a manufacturer who makes both canopies and containers perhaps I can shed some light on this novice problem.
Canopies are sized (for the purpose of container selection) by cubic inches. They are volume measured in a cylinder. Containers can be measured for volume but they are not all square and the exact numbers don't always work. Therefore some container makers might apply a coefficient or size adjustment to the calculated numbers. So if the container maker says 350 cubic inches that number should be honored.
Now to canopies. To tell you how difficult it is let’s start with the bulk of the fabric. It varies from vendor to vendor and even from die lot to die lot. Color will change the volume. Want low volume, jump white, I do. The next group of variables deals with shape of the canopy. Aspect Ratio (Cord vs. Span), air foil thickness, keels or flairs, stabilizers, etc. Now comes construction method. Not all canopies are built the same. Some methods might increase bulk and some might reduce it. Now lets introduce environmental variables. Humidity: When I jump in Arizona I take a squirt gun with me to moisten the fabric while packing so it will lay more quietly. In my native Florida the moisture content from the green grass performs this task just fine. I have seen canopies pack well in a moist environment and not be closeable in Arizona.
So you see it is not an exact science and there are many variables. We provide the guidance found at:
http://www.jumpshack.com/default.asp?CategoryID=TECH&PageID=CANOPYVOL&SortBy=DATE_D
However, it is just a guide. The only guarantee is to buy a mated system, mated by the manufacturer and guaranteed as such. This way if something doesn’t fit (and sometimes it doesn’t) it is not your problem but on the manufacturer to make it right. If you buy used components it may take several tries before you get it right and you find yourself in the equipment business. It has happened!
[url]

[billvon 2,436]

>We provide the guidance found at:

There are some blasts from the past in there. The AR-11? The Jonathan? The Nova? The HOBBIT? Wow.

[mr2mk1g 10]

See here: http://www.garlyn.co.nz/wings/Wingsizingchart2.html

Seems a 230 into a W31 may be a little loose - only real sure fire way is to try it in the presence of an exp. jumper or rigger who will be able to assist you with whether or not it is so loose as to cause a safety issue.

[NovaTTT 1]

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Seems a 230 into a W31 may be a little loose -

I just had dropped off today for rigging a W29 with a Super Raven 282 (with a CYPRES 2) and a 260 Pulse.

It's a snug but comfortable fit for both.

Depending on the 230 in question it might be a very loose pack indeed.

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[mchamp 1]

Could you please elaborate further upon the low volume colors from lowest to highest volume? So beginning with white being the lowest volume.....?

For info regarding lift ticket prices all around the world check out
http://www.jumpticketprices.com/dropzones.asp

[JohnSherman 1]

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Could you please elaborate further upon the low volume colors from lowest to highest volume? So beginning with white being the lowest volume.....?

No science here, just my observations over the years. White seems to be the lowest followed by yellow (not gold) and lite blue and pink. Reds, black and dark blue seem to be the most bulky. Feel the "Hand" of the cloth, you can tell if you compare them side by side. George Galloway at Percission tried to identify and correlate this issue but it gets elusive in the middle ranges and defies consistancy.

[section5 0]

thanks for the link. i didn't see something like that at Wings. It's good info.

[section5 0]

ok. thanks

[section5 0]

ii plan on demoing soon. i had the opportunity before but didn't think i had enough experience on my own rig

[section5 0]

wow! i had no idea there were so many variables. the thing that threw me the most was when i called Wings and they said they couldn't give me a solid answer but they didn't say why! So whatever mu next canopy is, i have to make sure it'll pack in my container before i pay for it? it may sound like a stupid question but they don't cover this in AFF and the rigger is usually too busy to explain things in depth.

[section5 0]

ok. it seems i check the canopy pack volume before i buy

[section5 0]

ok, thanks

[section5 0]

That chart is disappointing. I was hoping to NOT have to buy a new container.