boyczech 0 #1 September 1, 2011 i am a new jumper. i only have 14 jumps right now. during my aff, i jumped a nav 260 and the last 7 jumps i have been on a nav 220. i am 220 pounds with all my gear on. i should lose 10 pounds and that may happen over the winter. i am looking to buy a used rig. i have been told to buy a 210 but it doesn't seem like there are many on here for sale. i see there are a lot of 190's. i am curious what people think about someone with my experience and size going to a 190. what would i notice the major differences between the 190 and the 210? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #2 September 1, 2011 In before the canopy nazis There will be a difference. It won't be a major difference, but there will be a difference. The 190 will be slightly faster and if handled properly the added speed can be used to make your flares more efficient. But if not used properly, the slightly smaller canopy can hurt you. But you can also hurt yourself with a 260. There will be people who tell you not to get a 190 and others who have different views. I had a similar exit weight when I was new in the sport and I had a zero-p 190 Sabre2 which was a great canopy. But I had about 50 jumps under my belt on a 220 before I went to the 190 and I was a licensed private pilot before I started jumping. The 190 is totally doable if it is a zero-p canopy ... but the margin for error will be slightly less forgiving than a 210. Of course as I said, you can still hurt yourself on a large 260. Want to learn how to fly a canopy? Seek canopy control coaching from qualified canopy pilots and dedicate jumps (ie: hop n' pops) towards canopy control. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
boyczech 0 #3 September 1, 2011 thanks for the information. i plan on getting a few more jumps on the rented canopies. i am hoping that i can find a 190 to try. it just doesn't make sense to my to buy a 210 for a 100 jumps and then downsize to a 190. thanks for the help. i think the coach is a good idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #4 September 1, 2011 Once you get some coaching, dedicate jumps towards canopy control. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
manseman 0 #5 September 1, 2011 Quotethanks for the information. i plan on getting a few more jumps on the rented canopies. i am hoping that i can find a 190 to try. it just doesn't make sense to my to buy a 210 for a 100 jumps and then downsize to a 190. thanks for the help. i think the coach is a good idea. A bigger canopy of similar model and condition is definitely going to be safer to learn on than a smaller one. Also keep in mind that you are not just learning to control and land your canopy. Awareness, traffic patterns, getting back from bad spots, picking safe locations for landing off etc. This is all stuff that's going to be more difficult and dangerous the faster you go. Anyway, why not get a container that fits both sizes and simply get a new canopy when you're bored with the 210? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #7 September 1, 2011 Quote.... it just doesn't make sense to my to buy a 210 for a 100 jumps and then downsize to a 190. This is a common mistake that young jumpers make. The better idea is to buy what you need right NOW that best fits your skill level. When/if you decide to downsize, you sell it to get most, if not all, of your money back and put it towards what you need at that later time. I see that you are focused on the main canopy size. When you do buy gear, buy with the reserve size in mind first and THEN match up the main. It's strongly advised to buy what fits your skill level at the time of purchase.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DiverMike 5 #8 September 1, 2011 Quote should lose 10 pounds and that may happen over the winter. Why wait, take it off now. You have probably heard it before, but don't size a canopy based on 'should' or 'may'. The decision should be based on 'is', or 'am'. For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ufk22 32 #9 September 1, 2011 Quote it just doesn't make sense to my to buy a 210 for a 100 jumps and then downsize to a 190. Quote Actually, it makes a lot of sense. The only reason against it is $$$$$. I am about your weight. I made my first 150 jumps under a 225, my next 300 under a 190, my next 300+ under a 175, then got down to a 150. If you buy used canopies, you won't have a lot of costs by following a logical and safe progression. Your line of reasoning is one of part of why the injury/fatality link to open canopies has become so skewed.This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NWFlyer 2 #10 September 1, 2011 Quote The only reason against it is $$$$$. As you stated later in your post, if you buy used and don't overpay, money's not even the issue. My experience: Canopy #1: put 200 jumps on it, sold for $50 less than I put into it (canopy purchase price only) Canopy #2: put 300 jumps on it, sold for $100 less than I put into it (canopy purchase price + new lineset) Now jumping Canopy #3, which I've had for two years, which is the first and only canopy I've bought new (and that's only because at the time it was a brand-new design and there was nothing on the used market). I've just purchased Canopy #4 (same canopy as #3, but a used one). If I ever sell #3 I expect it to cost me more on a per-jump basis because I took the new canopy hit. I expect #4 to hold its value pretty well. A canopy of a popular/common/modern design that is in good shape when you buy it and good shape when you sell it will hold its value well, assuming you don't overpay to begin with. Where you lose a lot of money is when you are the one who buys the canopy brand-new. You're taking the "new car" depreciation hit."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hokierower 0 #11 September 1, 2011 +1 I bought my first canopy, Spectre 190 w/ 350 jumps, for $1200. I'll be selling it in about 120-150 jumps for probably the same price (with a new lineset). I'll be able to buy my next canopy without having to spend any more money! I weigh 210 OTD, and bought a 190 based upon the recommendations of my instructors who saw me jumping and flying a 230 Spectre. I downsized to a 210 Spectre (rental gear) for about 5 jumps before moving to my 190 at 20 jumps. I will be keeping it for at least 200 jumps and won't think about selling until I hit 200 which means it'll probably be sold after 220ish. YMMV. A 210 is just as popular as a 190 and you should be able to buy, put 100 jumps, and sell it without taking any significant price drop. If your instructors recommend a 210 for you, jump a 210 until you are very comfortable with it. Again, talk to YOUR instructors. The very experienced jumpers here (not me) can recommend the same thing over and over to us newer jumpers but they're going on experience and have never seen you land. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrewEckhardt 0 #12 September 2, 2011 Quotethanks for the information. i plan on getting a few more jumps on the rented canopies. i am hoping that i can find a 190 to try. it just doesn't make sense to my to buy a 210 for a 100 jumps and then downsize to a 190. thanks for the help. i think the coach is a good idea. It makes perfect sense. 100 jumps on the 210 before the 190 fits with accepted downsizing progressions and gives you enough time to learn how to really fly the canopy landing up-wind, down-wind, cross-wind, up-hill, down-hill, in tight areas, with turns from treetop level, etc. all of which will save your butt when you need to land out. Normally people would 1. Buy a used rig with a 210 2. Put 120 jumps on it 3. Sell the 210 and buy a used 190 for about what they sell the 210 for 4. Sell the 210 for purchase price 5. Put 150 jumps on the 190 6. Buy a used 170 7. Sell the 190 for purchase price - $1/jump 8. Put 150 jumps on the 170 9. Buy a new used rig with 150 canopies 10. Put 200 jumps on the 150 spending an average of $1/jump on canopies and $2 for rig and canopy regardless of how many times they down-size. If you're patient and negotiate good deals you can make money or spend a lot less. If you insist on having matching colors the total could be $5. Eventually you arrive at sizes where you'll be content for a long time. The cost of a new container and reserve spread over a decade isn't interesting without considering the residual value and you won't take a big per-jump hit putting 500-1000+ skydives on a brand new canopy in your colors unless they're ugly. At that point buying something brand new which exactly fits your tastes is a fine idea (although in the future I'd stay away from white leg strap pads). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrewEckhardt 0 #13 September 2, 2011 Quote I weigh 210 OTD, and bought a 190 based upon the recommendations of my instructors who saw me jumping and flying a 230 Spectre. I downsized to a 210 Spectre (rental gear) for about 5 jumps before moving to my 190 at 20 jumps. After landing it down-wind, cross-wind, up-hill, down-hill, on asphalt or concrete, with consistent accuracy into a back-yard sized area, with 90 degree turns from tree-top or hanger height, turning during your flare, landing from a braked approach without returning to full flight, etc? That's a lot to fit into 20 jumps to say nothing of 5. Your instructors most likely only saw you in the best possible conditions, landing nearly into the wind in a wide open field. Either they haven't seen you landing out, down-wind, on concrete, etc. and haven't seen enough to recommend a smaller canopy or they have because you've been demonstrating bad judgement and shouldn't be under one. While they have a lot more experience than you, your instructors usually haven't been around that long and haven't seen enough to be making recommendations more aggressive than accepted practice. I don't need to think long to remember five dead instructors who didn't know enough about how to fly parachutes (only one who killed a student) and another five who are still here due to luck (not skill). Start with 1.0 pounds/square foot, learn all the survival skills, and then downsize no faster than Brian Germain's (xx,xxxx jumps, designs parachutes, builds parachutes, teaches canopy flight professionally, has the background to make suggestions ) recommended .1 / 100 jump rate (see his writings where deviations from that simple rule of thumb are recommended). If your instructors think you're doing an especially bad job be more conservative. Otherwise ignore them. While they might visit you in the hospital, they're unlikely to make a significant dent in your bills and definitely won't be the ones dealing with any of your complications. Quote Again, talk to YOUR instructors. The very experienced jumpers here (not me) can recommend the same thing over and over to us newer jumpers but they're going on experience and have never seen you land. Forget your instructors unless they want you to be more conservative. Landing a canopy straight into the wind in a wide open field isn't hard. BZ Shaw suggested demoing a 104 when I had 500 jumps with the last year on the Batwing 134 he previously owned and I easily landed it fine in a sunny wide open field with a nice head-wind. Some time over the next 700 jumps I had enough experience to know that things weren't that simple, learn more, and be OK landing my 105 down-wind, cross-wind, up-hill, down-hill, in brakes, flying around and over obstacles on the ground, landing out, landing at night, etc. Getting into any of those situations before I had that experience could have been real messy even though I agreed with "experienced" jumpers and rating holders who thought it was fine earlier in my jumping career. Being more aggressive often works out OK, but you'll learn more less painfully when you put in the time at lower wing loadings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites boyczech 0 #14 September 2, 2011 ok, i get the picture. i will buy a 210 and learn how to fly it before i downsize to a 190. thank you for all your input. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
NWFlyer 2 #10 September 1, 2011 Quote The only reason against it is $$$$$. As you stated later in your post, if you buy used and don't overpay, money's not even the issue. My experience: Canopy #1: put 200 jumps on it, sold for $50 less than I put into it (canopy purchase price only) Canopy #2: put 300 jumps on it, sold for $100 less than I put into it (canopy purchase price + new lineset) Now jumping Canopy #3, which I've had for two years, which is the first and only canopy I've bought new (and that's only because at the time it was a brand-new design and there was nothing on the used market). I've just purchased Canopy #4 (same canopy as #3, but a used one). If I ever sell #3 I expect it to cost me more on a per-jump basis because I took the new canopy hit. I expect #4 to hold its value pretty well. A canopy of a popular/common/modern design that is in good shape when you buy it and good shape when you sell it will hold its value well, assuming you don't overpay to begin with. Where you lose a lot of money is when you are the one who buys the canopy brand-new. You're taking the "new car" depreciation hit."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hokierower 0 #11 September 1, 2011 +1 I bought my first canopy, Spectre 190 w/ 350 jumps, for $1200. I'll be selling it in about 120-150 jumps for probably the same price (with a new lineset). I'll be able to buy my next canopy without having to spend any more money! I weigh 210 OTD, and bought a 190 based upon the recommendations of my instructors who saw me jumping and flying a 230 Spectre. I downsized to a 210 Spectre (rental gear) for about 5 jumps before moving to my 190 at 20 jumps. I will be keeping it for at least 200 jumps and won't think about selling until I hit 200 which means it'll probably be sold after 220ish. YMMV. A 210 is just as popular as a 190 and you should be able to buy, put 100 jumps, and sell it without taking any significant price drop. If your instructors recommend a 210 for you, jump a 210 until you are very comfortable with it. Again, talk to YOUR instructors. The very experienced jumpers here (not me) can recommend the same thing over and over to us newer jumpers but they're going on experience and have never seen you land. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #12 September 2, 2011 Quotethanks for the information. i plan on getting a few more jumps on the rented canopies. i am hoping that i can find a 190 to try. it just doesn't make sense to my to buy a 210 for a 100 jumps and then downsize to a 190. thanks for the help. i think the coach is a good idea. It makes perfect sense. 100 jumps on the 210 before the 190 fits with accepted downsizing progressions and gives you enough time to learn how to really fly the canopy landing up-wind, down-wind, cross-wind, up-hill, down-hill, in tight areas, with turns from treetop level, etc. all of which will save your butt when you need to land out. Normally people would 1. Buy a used rig with a 210 2. Put 120 jumps on it 3. Sell the 210 and buy a used 190 for about what they sell the 210 for 4. Sell the 210 for purchase price 5. Put 150 jumps on the 190 6. Buy a used 170 7. Sell the 190 for purchase price - $1/jump 8. Put 150 jumps on the 170 9. Buy a new used rig with 150 canopies 10. Put 200 jumps on the 150 spending an average of $1/jump on canopies and $2 for rig and canopy regardless of how many times they down-size. If you're patient and negotiate good deals you can make money or spend a lot less. If you insist on having matching colors the total could be $5. Eventually you arrive at sizes where you'll be content for a long time. The cost of a new container and reserve spread over a decade isn't interesting without considering the residual value and you won't take a big per-jump hit putting 500-1000+ skydives on a brand new canopy in your colors unless they're ugly. At that point buying something brand new which exactly fits your tastes is a fine idea (although in the future I'd stay away from white leg strap pads). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #13 September 2, 2011 Quote I weigh 210 OTD, and bought a 190 based upon the recommendations of my instructors who saw me jumping and flying a 230 Spectre. I downsized to a 210 Spectre (rental gear) for about 5 jumps before moving to my 190 at 20 jumps. After landing it down-wind, cross-wind, up-hill, down-hill, on asphalt or concrete, with consistent accuracy into a back-yard sized area, with 90 degree turns from tree-top or hanger height, turning during your flare, landing from a braked approach without returning to full flight, etc? That's a lot to fit into 20 jumps to say nothing of 5. Your instructors most likely only saw you in the best possible conditions, landing nearly into the wind in a wide open field. Either they haven't seen you landing out, down-wind, on concrete, etc. and haven't seen enough to recommend a smaller canopy or they have because you've been demonstrating bad judgement and shouldn't be under one. While they have a lot more experience than you, your instructors usually haven't been around that long and haven't seen enough to be making recommendations more aggressive than accepted practice. I don't need to think long to remember five dead instructors who didn't know enough about how to fly parachutes (only one who killed a student) and another five who are still here due to luck (not skill). Start with 1.0 pounds/square foot, learn all the survival skills, and then downsize no faster than Brian Germain's (xx,xxxx jumps, designs parachutes, builds parachutes, teaches canopy flight professionally, has the background to make suggestions ) recommended .1 / 100 jump rate (see his writings where deviations from that simple rule of thumb are recommended). If your instructors think you're doing an especially bad job be more conservative. Otherwise ignore them. While they might visit you in the hospital, they're unlikely to make a significant dent in your bills and definitely won't be the ones dealing with any of your complications. Quote Again, talk to YOUR instructors. The very experienced jumpers here (not me) can recommend the same thing over and over to us newer jumpers but they're going on experience and have never seen you land. Forget your instructors unless they want you to be more conservative. Landing a canopy straight into the wind in a wide open field isn't hard. BZ Shaw suggested demoing a 104 when I had 500 jumps with the last year on the Batwing 134 he previously owned and I easily landed it fine in a sunny wide open field with a nice head-wind. Some time over the next 700 jumps I had enough experience to know that things weren't that simple, learn more, and be OK landing my 105 down-wind, cross-wind, up-hill, down-hill, in brakes, flying around and over obstacles on the ground, landing out, landing at night, etc. Getting into any of those situations before I had that experience could have been real messy even though I agreed with "experienced" jumpers and rating holders who thought it was fine earlier in my jumping career. Being more aggressive often works out OK, but you'll learn more less painfully when you put in the time at lower wing loadings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
boyczech 0 #14 September 2, 2011 ok, i get the picture. i will buy a 210 and learn how to fly it before i downsize to a 190. thank you for all your input. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
