Spirals 0
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Zenister 0
well if your intelligent you dont simply take a single opinion or advice as gospel, no matter how much that opinion agrees or disagrees with your desire. YOU weigh your experience and skills against the risk you take, and weigh the value of the advice you receive as well..
if you want to protect the sport stand uniform when ANYONE tries to sue in violation of a signed waiver that clearly states you can die doing this and understand and accept the risks. "you paid your money, you take your chances..."
As many have done talk to your parents, SOs and have statements in your will that specifically state your understanding and acceptance of the risks involved and that you would not agree to any legal action based on your acceptance of these risks. Fight it right where it starts, at the legal level and DO NOT bow down to the pressure that says its societies role to protect you from yourself, and legislate your freedom out of meaningful existence.
The reason we have the litigious society we do is because everyone is only worried about covering their asses and not standing up against the basic wrong and social injustice of unwarranted lawsuits against those participating in voluntary activities..
if you cant accept the risks (physically, emotionally, personally and legally) then dont get in the plane
if you want to protect the sport stand uniform when ANYONE tries to sue in violation of a signed waiver that clearly states you can die doing this and understand and accept the risks. "you paid your money, you take your chances..."
As many have done talk to your parents, SOs and have statements in your will that specifically state your understanding and acceptance of the risks involved and that you would not agree to any legal action based on your acceptance of these risks. Fight it right where it starts, at the legal level and DO NOT bow down to the pressure that says its societies role to protect you from yourself, and legislate your freedom out of meaningful existence.
The reason we have the litigious society we do is because everyone is only worried about covering their asses and not standing up against the basic wrong and social injustice of unwarranted lawsuits against those participating in voluntary activities..
if you cant accept the risks (physically, emotionally, personally and legally) then dont get in the plane
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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
skybytch 259
QuoteAs many have done talk to your parents, SOs and have statements in your will that specifically state your understanding and acceptance of the risks involved and that you would not agree to any legal action based on your acceptance of these risks.
You're dead. You have no say in the matter. Grief does strange things to some people minds.
Any lawyers out there? Would a statement in a will be legally sufficient to keep an heir from suing or working toward legislating or banning skydiving?
Quotewell if your intelligent you dont simply take a single opinion or advice as gospel, no matter how much that opinion agrees or disagrees with your desire. YOU weigh your experience and skills against the risk you take, and weigh the value of the advice you receive as well..
if you want to protect the sport stand uniform when ANYONE tries to sue in violation of a signed waiver that clearly states you can die doing this and understand and accept the risks. "you paid your money, you take your chances..."
As many have done talk to your parents, SOs and have statements in your will that specifically state your understanding and acceptance of the risks involved and that you would not agree to any legal action based on your acceptance of these risks. Fight it right where it starts, at the legal level and DO NOT bow down to the pressure that says its societies role to protect you from yourself, and legislate your freedom out of meaningful existence.
The reason we have the litigious society we do is because everyone is only worried about covering their asses and not standing up against the basic wrong and social injustice of unwarranted lawsuits against those participating in voluntary activities..
if you cant accept the risks (physically, emotionally, personally and legally) then dont get in the plane
Dude, I give up arguing with you. Not because you win or have a great argument - you just don't listen. Have fun in your little world.
_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....
KerMor 0
I come from a very regulated dropzone in Ireland where wing loading is regulated the same way skydiving licenses is: http://indigo.ie/~pai/ratings.htm.
I would like to read what our fellow jumpers from the other side of the Atlantic have to say about this as everything is regulated down there. e.g. waivers have no legal values in France –and do not exist: DZO and instructor are legally responsible for their jumpers and students.
You can't determine the length of your life
- but you can control its height and depth.
I would like to read what our fellow jumpers from the other side of the Atlantic have to say about this as everything is regulated down there. e.g. waivers have no legal values in France –and do not exist: DZO and instructor are legally responsible for their jumpers and students.
You can't determine the length of your life
- but you can control its height and depth.
KerMor 0
My perspective on the question … (sorry it is long)
One thing that have influenced me a lot in my training and my ‘philosophy’ about skydiving is that at the dropzone I was in, there was a Center Chief Instructor (DZO+STA) that was really experienced, RESPECTED by ALL and available for questions / training. He influenced all of us.
That meant that when you infringed the rules (open low, went on a formation too big for your experience, did not respect the landing pattern…), you could be almost sure to have a one-to-one meeting with him in a closed room, either for training or request of explanation. It was not rare to see jumpers been grounded for the remaining of the weekend.
Other aspect of that: every time we wanted to get new gear or get into a bigger formation, it had to be cleared by the CCI. I personally had to clear the use of my new rig because it did not have a standard cut-away pad.
We all had lot of fun there (between the clouds) but we knew we had to stay within the boundaries of the well understood rules (because repeated so often). And in my 4 years been a regular at that dropzone, I never witnessed life threatening injuries (this must mean something). But I have seen people been told that skydiving was not for them.
Ok, things are much bigger in the US, and supervising all jumpers would take huge efforts (from manifest, DZO, STA and fellow jumpers), and would be against the capitalist spirit that exists here (every one is responsible in looking after himself, no one else is responsible for your well being –waiver philosophy-)
But I think every skydiver has a ‘home’ DZ, and this is where these things could –should- happen.
Any thought on that?
You can't determine the length of your life
- but you can control its height and depth.
One thing that have influenced me a lot in my training and my ‘philosophy’ about skydiving is that at the dropzone I was in, there was a Center Chief Instructor (DZO+STA) that was really experienced, RESPECTED by ALL and available for questions / training. He influenced all of us.
That meant that when you infringed the rules (open low, went on a formation too big for your experience, did not respect the landing pattern…), you could be almost sure to have a one-to-one meeting with him in a closed room, either for training or request of explanation. It was not rare to see jumpers been grounded for the remaining of the weekend.
Other aspect of that: every time we wanted to get new gear or get into a bigger formation, it had to be cleared by the CCI. I personally had to clear the use of my new rig because it did not have a standard cut-away pad.
We all had lot of fun there (between the clouds) but we knew we had to stay within the boundaries of the well understood rules (because repeated so often). And in my 4 years been a regular at that dropzone, I never witnessed life threatening injuries (this must mean something). But I have seen people been told that skydiving was not for them.
Ok, things are much bigger in the US, and supervising all jumpers would take huge efforts (from manifest, DZO, STA and fellow jumpers), and would be against the capitalist spirit that exists here (every one is responsible in looking after himself, no one else is responsible for your well being –waiver philosophy-)
But I think every skydiver has a ‘home’ DZ, and this is where these things could –should- happen.
Any thought on that?
You can't determine the length of your life
- but you can control its height and depth.
Everyone here will probably say I am not one to talk, including myself. However, I am going to speak despite all of you, and despite myself.
Fuck it. Jump. Never stop and never quit.
Fuck it. Jump. Never stop and never quit.
wingnut 0
QuoteThis letter in this month's Parachutist is hitting me pretty hard at the moment. In it, a DZ owner proposes putting the name of the person or company who sold the canopy to the person listed in incidents, as a way of "blacklisting" the dealer or person responsible for the sale. I'm curious what DZ.commers think about this particular issue.
this dzo happens to be the dz i jump at. not going to read through all these posts since i got through like 20 and they are basicly the same thing. just pointing out, 2 of the three helo flights he listed were not due to canopy size but to low turns that would have been bad even under a much larger canopy and the other was a result of a freefall colision.......... okay on a thread related note..... people are gona do what they want, no matter if one person sells it to them or if it's another. i think a bsr wuld help that but somebody trying to get a monster swoop outa a lighter loaded canopy can hurt themselvs just as much as a higher wingload with out the monster turn. it's not the newer jumper trying to face into the wind that kill themelves it's the jumper that knows better that fnds themselve way to deep in the turn to pull out of it.... the reason for the turn, not normally to face into the wind or such but to produce a swoop landing...... banning hook turns in my opinion would greatly reduce landing injuries than limiting canopy size!!! but then again i'm not really for either of em... i vote for "be responsible for your own actons and you make the decions"
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"i have no reader's digest version"
skybytch 259
Quoteit's not the newer jumper trying to face into the wind that kill themelves it's the jumper that knows better that fnds themselve way to deep in the turn to pull out of it....
A newer jumper died yesterday. He was flying something he didn't have the experience to handle when shit happened. Shit happened - he made a low turn most likely to avoid power lines. Had he been under a larger and less aggressive canopy his injuries likely wouldn't have been as serious.
Banning hook turns ain't gonna happen. Swooping is what most new jumpers want to learn to do.
Quote"be responsible for your own actons and you make the decions"
Let's hope his family agrees with this statement...
RevJim 0
To nobody in particular, just the thread in general.
At a few DZ's I've been too, I saw a memorial wall, giving tribute to those that have passed on.
We need a memorial/shame/open your fucking eyes wall at DZ's too.
"Yes, and this is the wall of people who have died, femured (remember when that was NOT a verb?), broke this/that/the other thing because they were stupid. These were on canopies they were not ready for. These over here were on the right canopy, but made the wrong choice. Oh, and this guy here decided to walk the swoop course."
Open the new eyes to all the injuries around them. Maybe even add a blurb to the ones that lived as to what they are flying now, if they even skydive anymore.
Yes, I was stupid, and am quite happy to have made it this far.
At a few DZ's I've been too, I saw a memorial wall, giving tribute to those that have passed on.
We need a memorial/shame/open your fucking eyes wall at DZ's too.
"Yes, and this is the wall of people who have died, femured (remember when that was NOT a verb?), broke this/that/the other thing because they were stupid. These were on canopies they were not ready for. These over here were on the right canopy, but made the wrong choice. Oh, and this guy here decided to walk the swoop course."
Open the new eyes to all the injuries around them. Maybe even add a blurb to the ones that lived as to what they are flying now, if they even skydive anymore.
Yes, I was stupid, and am quite happy to have made it this far.
It's your life, live it!
Karma
RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1
Karma
RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1
wingnut 0
Quotenewer jumper died yesterday. He was flying something he didn't have the experience to handle when shit happened. Shit happened - he made a low turn most likely to avoid power lines. Had he been under a larger and less aggressive canopy his injuries likely wouldn't have been as serious.
point made!.....
all i was saying is as a whole most landing related (non malfunction) inurys imho seem to be someone trying to surf it out not a turn into the wind or to avoid an obsticle, even though these do happen and a bigger canopy might help prevent more serious injuries. i was looking at the majority..
also need to add to my statment from before..."be responsible for your own actons and you make the decions"...after being educated and informed about the risk assosiated with smaller canopies
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"i have no reader's digest version"
Zenister 0
QuoteQuoteAs many have done talk to your parents, SOs and have statements in your will that specifically state your understanding and acceptance of the risks involved and that you would not agree to any legal action based on your acceptance of these risks.
You're dead. You have no say in the matter. Grief does strange things to some people minds.
Any lawyers out there? Would a statement in a will be legally sufficient to keep an heir from suing or working toward legislating or banning skydiving?
dont need to be a lawyer to know it all depends on the money and the advertising machine behind it. (and how other skydivers react as well, with acceptance or do you add fuel to the litigious environment?)
However a rather plainly worded statement of your intent would reveal those motives for exactly that, a grief stricken emotional response with little legal bearing in the face of a statement that plainly shows your understanding and acceptance of the inherent risks... and would make your SO look rather foolish as they pursued further unwanted legal actions...
its been asked before, but how many people have NOT explained their reasons and motivations in this sport to their families?
____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
gjhdiver 0
QuoteTally all about freedom of choice, personal responsibility, etc. But I've now known three people who died under perfectly good parachutes that they didn't have the experience to fly, and I'm getting pretty fucking tired of it. The blacklist idea sounds pretty good to me, except that in all likelihood it will serve as an advertisement for the kind of people who are progressing quickly and want to downsize and start swooping with 30 jumps. I'm not sure what to do...blacklists, better training, the ever-popular wing-loading BSR, smarter instructors, canopy control schools at every dropzone, whatever. It's time to take some action, and I'm just curious what y'all think.
Iceman
I don't beleive regulation will work for this. There is enough education and peer review as is needed right now. I've seen a lot of very nasty accidents under high performance canopies, and quite frankly, every single one could have been avoided if the person involved had shown better judgement of their abilities as a canopy pilot.
The problem that we deal with is that we forget that we draw from the same population pool that likes to drink and drive, alligator wrestle, etc. Basically, if someone is set on pushing their personal envelope far further than they should, there is a limit to what the general skydiving communiy can do. I've seen people who are pig headed enough to move drop zones and falsify logbooks to get what they deem is their right to jump a canopy they have no business being under.
Simply put, there's a limit to what we can do. This sport is all about personal responsibility and sensible risk management. If people can't aquire those skills, then they're always going to be a liablity to themselves and other in whatever they decide to do. Regulations won't help, education might.
cousins 0
This is Paul's sister, Allison. Paul was the most wonderful little (but bigger) brother. I have been so deeply touched by the love that the skydiving community has for him, especially seeing as though you have known him for such a short time. My brother was truly a magnetic and shining star. It is so comforting to get to ‘know’ some of the people whom he spent his last days with and made his life that much happier. Although he just started, I know he lived for flying…and then died for flying.
Squirrel - I don't thank you for your callous remarks. May God never put you in a place where you could understand the depth of the wounds that you have thrown salt upon.
Squirrel - I don't thank you for your callous remarks. May God never put you in a place where you could understand the depth of the wounds that you have thrown salt upon.
Sebazz1 2
I apologize in advance. I do not articulate well and my serious posts may not make sense. If it doesn't make sense it is no you, it's me...
Any jumpmaster, DZO, gear sales store...
Should have the common sense to know that skydivers injure or kill themselves under canopy more than any other way. These people should have the commons sense to not sell or recomend someone with less than a month or so in the sport a high performance canopy. Just letting people do what they may is not good business. It will come back to bite you in the ass.
You can't have one DZ be conservative and another reckless. You can't have one dealer who sells you anything while another who actually has ethics and considers what they are selling and to who. You can't have jumpmasters or experienced jumpers giving mixed advice.
There needs to be some agreement in the middle. Cause if we can not find a way to get our shit together someone else will do it for us. Self regulating or blacklisting sounds better then having some non jumping beurocrat making it mandatory to get a special FAA certificate for stores, DZ's or folks selling used gear through specially approved gear stores...
Let's get it together folks. Low time jumpers have no right jumping fast shit...
Yeah you can die under anything but you chances are better if you take your time and downsize slowly. And if you can't be patient... You have no choice but to wait till you have the proper jump #'s. We have to try to do it ourselves before non jumpers get involved. And I say "we" that should mean all skydivers.
You have your whole life to skydive. What's the hurry?
Any jumpmaster, DZO, gear sales store...
Should have the common sense to know that skydivers injure or kill themselves under canopy more than any other way. These people should have the commons sense to not sell or recomend someone with less than a month or so in the sport a high performance canopy. Just letting people do what they may is not good business. It will come back to bite you in the ass.
You can't have one DZ be conservative and another reckless. You can't have one dealer who sells you anything while another who actually has ethics and considers what they are selling and to who. You can't have jumpmasters or experienced jumpers giving mixed advice.
There needs to be some agreement in the middle. Cause if we can not find a way to get our shit together someone else will do it for us. Self regulating or blacklisting sounds better then having some non jumping beurocrat making it mandatory to get a special FAA certificate for stores, DZ's or folks selling used gear through specially approved gear stores...
Let's get it together folks. Low time jumpers have no right jumping fast shit...
Yeah you can die under anything but you chances are better if you take your time and downsize slowly. And if you can't be patient... You have no choice but to wait till you have the proper jump #'s. We have to try to do it ourselves before non jumpers get involved. And I say "we" that should mean all skydivers.
You have your whole life to skydive. What's the hurry?
Honestly, he definitely left an impression on us as well. Your family has also amazed me with your strength, understanding and resiliance.
Anything you guys ever need from us, never hesitiate to ask.
Blue skies
Andy
Blog Clicky
Anything you guys ever need from us, never hesitiate to ask.
Blue skies
Andy
Blog Clicky
Posting where someone purchased a too small canopy may be free advertising for the next victim . Someone will sell them what they want . I would like to see more training in high performance canopies and see a program started to educate new jumpers as to what can happen when you fuck up . As for outright banning sales of high performance canopies to low number jumpers , I don't know if I am all for it or not . I downsized fairly fast but I was was jumping like a madman during that time .
I just wanted to add one more thing to this thread that I was thinking about. Last year I was working at a very busy eastern DZ. A jumper showed up to jump while his girlfriend was doing a tandem. I was working manifest. He usually jumped at another DZ on the east coast although sometimes he jumped with us and I also knew him from jumping at Sebastian in the winter. What was unknown to me was that he had purchased a new parachute. He was asked not to jump it at his home DZ so decided to drive to us to try it out. None of us had any way of knowing that he was doing that until after he hooked it into the landing area. He was revived by two other skydivers and lived. His paperwork was current and up to date, he had jumped with us the month before. There was no way for us to know he was jumping something he had no right to be on and since he wasn't from our dz unless we asked him jump numbers and questions like that everytime he showed up we wouldn't have a clue.
When I see the threads talking about the more lax dropzones and people being angry about that, you've got to understand - we can't go chasing every skydiver around and policing their gear. I was very upset calling 911 for him - he'd been in a huge rush to get on the load. To the point where he was such so pushy I had told him to just chillout or he wouldn't be getting on it at all. I thought he was just all keyed up about jumping with his girlfriend. When we were later told that his home DZ wouldn't let him jump his canopy it felt terrible. If you've got someone this reckless jumping at your DZ and you ground them from their gear a courtesy call to other DZ's in your area would be welcomed. I've called other DZ's about jumpers like that - some are receptive and some give you the whatever - hey, if they're current and got their license that's their business.
i don't like calling 911! I wish people would stop making me do it for unneccessary reasons. It's bad enough that you can be doing everything right and some crazy little thing takes you out .
When I see the threads talking about the more lax dropzones and people being angry about that, you've got to understand - we can't go chasing every skydiver around and policing their gear. I was very upset calling 911 for him - he'd been in a huge rush to get on the load. To the point where he was such so pushy I had told him to just chillout or he wouldn't be getting on it at all. I thought he was just all keyed up about jumping with his girlfriend. When we were later told that his home DZ wouldn't let him jump his canopy it felt terrible. If you've got someone this reckless jumping at your DZ and you ground them from their gear a courtesy call to other DZ's in your area would be welcomed. I've called other DZ's about jumpers like that - some are receptive and some give you the whatever - hey, if they're current and got their license that's their business.
i don't like calling 911! I wish people would stop making me do it for unneccessary reasons. It's bad enough that you can be doing everything right and some crazy little thing takes you out .
What if you ask the right questions and are given answers that are wrong. How do you know when you're being given advice that could kill you?
Q. I have ridden my 200cc bike twice. Should I buy that shiny 1500cc?
A. You'll be fine, just take it easy.
Is that risk acceptable? How do you know if you've just learned to ride? What if you were told "Run as much as you like, these scissors won't hurt you?"
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