I love it when moral crusaders are exposed for their true colors.

[lawrocket 3]

Rather than go point by point, I think that there are some fundamental things going on with your thought. You separate people. You look at people's differences. You celebrate people's differences.

I've never been to Europe (I went to England, and they don't like to consider themselves "Europe"). I haven't had anyone in my family tree from Europe since before 1850. Don't call me a European American. Call me Jerry.
Also, you stated a belief that race should be a factor in many things, like medicine. What you say is dangerous. It is known that sickle-cell anemia makes the carrier immune from malaria. It is also known that it is found primarily amongst those of African descent. You indicate that there should be some different form of treatment to those of African descent. Maybe you suggest profiling, wherein if a malaria outbreak occurred, we should offer none of the treatment to blakcs, since blacks have sickle cell.

Well, not all blacks are carriers. All people, regardless of race, should amd would receive treatment for malaria. Your example suggests
that, on the basis of racial data, an outbreak of malaria should be of no governmental concern in a black ghetto. This is dangerous, especially considering the numerous adverse effects of sickle-cell anemia.

You also confuse race with culture. You lump all spanish speakers in as Latino. Statistically, this is accurate. But rather than find a racial classification, wouldn't it make more sense to suggest that those who don't speak English do worse in English, regardless of race or ethnicity, or religion? So we target the non-english speakers.

Or maybe we can show that low-income people, regardless of race or ethnicity, do worse on exams.

You stated in an earlier post that people should be judged not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character. And yet, I've never heard a more blatant argument for maintaining racial differences, and racial judging, than what you are writing here.

Your motives are pure. But, your statements are riddled with fallacy.

Maybe when we stop seeking racial identifications, as you are doing, people will stop judging by race.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Deuce 1]

I got it the first time, oh code-wrangler.

[lawrocket 3]

gh, I think it's funny as hell! And I know that we'd get along exceptionally well.

I myself cruise along in my big Ford. I think the best part is your disconnect. It's good to see!

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 2,434]

> It is known that sickle-cell anemia makes the carrier immune from
> malaria. It is also known that it is found primarily amongst those of
> African descent. You indicate that there should be some different
> form of treatment to those of African descent. Maybe you suggest
> profiling, wherein if a malaria outbreak occurred, we should offer
> none of the treatment to blakcs, since blacks have sickle cell.

Change "none" to "different" and, duh, yeah. Should EMT's treat men for ectopic pregnancies? Should doctors tell dark-skinned African-Americans that they are at grave risk for skin cancer unless they wear sunscreen?

People _are_ different. Women _are_ different than men. Black-skinned people _do_ have a different skin cancer risk than whites. Doctors have to take physical differences, including race, into account when treating an individual or a population. To claim that doctors should be "blind" to medical differences between people is truly political correctness run amok.

From the New England Journal of Medicine:

Medical Ethics

The Healthy People 2010 initiative has made the reduction of racial disparities a central national health priority, but the achievement of this objective requires evidence-based action. The article by Skinner and colleagues in this issue of the Journal expands our understanding of the factors underlying observed differences in the rate of health care utilization among racial subgroups of the U.S. population. This research confirms the findings from the recent report by the Institute of Medicine, entitled Unequal Treatment, not only that racial and ethnic disparities exist, but that the root causes of these disparities in the health care sector are multifactorial. No simple, single explanation can be cited. The building of effective solutions requires an understanding of all the causes and the targeting of the right remedy.

[rehmwa 2]

OK - with a few stupid exceptions, this has been the best, most courteous thread on one of the big subjects on this forum. The name callers and hotheads seem to have left and the discourse is reasoned and highlights the real issues in political disagreements.

A difference in the underlying base assumptions and how it drives our opinions. Root cause theory at work.

I've started avoiding these or, even worse, stoking the fires because of the crappy back and forths. But this one, I'll keep reading.

Thanks, guys

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Nightingale 0]

Quote

Rather than go point by point, I think that there are some fundamental things going on with your thought. You separate people. You look at people's differences. You celebrate people's differences.

I've never been to Europe (I went to England, and they don't like to consider themselves "Europe"). I haven't had anyone in my family tree from Europe since before 1850. Don't call me a European American. Call me Jerry.
Also, you stated a belief that race should be a factor in many things, like medicine. What you say is dangerous. It is known that sickle-cell anemia makes the carrier immune from malaria. It is also known that it is found primarily amongst those of African descent. You indicate that there should be some different form of treatment to those of African descent. Maybe you suggest profiling, wherein if a malaria outbreak occurred, we should offer none of the treatment to blakcs, since blacks have sickle cell.

Well, not all blacks are carriers. All people, regardless of race, should amd would receive treatment for malaria. Your example suggests
that, on the basis of racial data, an outbreak of malaria should be of no governmental concern in a black ghetto. This is dangerous, especially considering the numerous adverse effects of sickle-cell anemia.

You also confuse race with culture. You lump all spanish speakers in as Latino. Statistically, this is accurate. But rather than find a racial classification, wouldn't it make more sense to suggest that those who don't speak English do worse in English, regardless of race or ethnicity, or religion? So we target the non-english speakers.

Or maybe we can show that low-income people, regardless of race or ethnicity, do worse on exams.

You stated in an earlier post that people should be judged not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character. And yet, I've never heard a more blatant argument for maintaining racial differences, and racial judging, than what you are writing here.

Your motives are pure. But, your statements are riddled with fallacy.

Maybe when we stop seeking racial identifications, as you are doing, people will stop judging by race.

I was by no means suggesting that we should not worry about an outbreak of malaria in an African American community. Of course, not all people of African descent are carriers of sickle cell... however, a great many of them are.

When a baby is born, a hospital will do certain tests to make sure that the child is healthy and free of certain diseases.

One out of twelve african americans is a sickle cell carrier.

One out of every 375 african american newborns have sickle cell disease.

ninety percent of all sickle cell disease in the US occurs in people of African descent.

(source: American Red Cross)


After hearing this... do you think that a doctor might want to consider advising an African American couple considering having a baby to possibly get tested for this? Perhaps the hospital needs to check the baby for this problem? Sickle cell doesn't usually become obvious until the child is between 6-12 months old. If detected at a younger age, treatment, education for parents and family, and appropriate precautions for the child can begin.

if we hadn't collected the racial data about who carries this disease, we would not be able to provide appropriate medical advice to potential carriers.

Consider the Canadian tuberculosis epidemic of the 1950s. All tb patients received the standard treatment: many months of triple-drug therapy, including a medication called isoniazid. It turned out that a sizeable fraction of Canadian Eskimos had a variant form of a liver enzyme that metabolized isoniazid so quickly that the drug was effectively used up before it could attack the tuberculosis bacteria. Many of the Eskimos metabolized isoniazid much faster than the general population and thus fared poorly under what was an inadvertent two-drug regimen. Many succumbed to tb and the partly treated, still-living tuberculosis bacteria themselves mutated into drug-resistant forms that went on to infect others in the general Canadian population. The significance of these results is that to ignore race under such circumstances is practically akin to withholding treatment.

please see this article about why doctors find racial information helpful for diagnosis and treatment. It appeared in the New York Times

http://www.sallysatelmd.com/html/a-nytimes3.html

[SkyDekker 1,145]

Quote

But rather than find a racial classification, wouldn't it make more sense to suggest that those who don't speak English do worse in English, regardless of race or ethnicity, or religion? So we target the non-english speakers.

Great, so when the parents come for their parent-teacher interview to discuss how we can improve the perfomance of their child, which translator should be provided? If you can't note if they are Mexican or maybe Hong Kong Chinese or Cuban?

Like I said earlier, it is nice to know you have a problem, but that is only the first step. Then comes the difficult part: finding a solution. Racial and/or ethnic and/or gender information is needed to effectively design solutions.

I really don't see what the problem is with that.

Quote

Maybe when we stop seeking racial identifications, as you are doing, people will stop judging by race.

That is where you are wrong. The judgement has already been made. Their is a performance issue, that is the judgement. The racial, ethnic or gender information is used to find a solution, not to make the judgement.

Hence, your position is interesting but riddled with fallacy.

[lawrocket 3]

Bill:

My point is that doctors treat people on the basis of the symptoms and signs. The patient's clinical history, combined with test results, and then the consent of the patient, detemine the treatment modalities.

All people are different. All individuals are different. Doctors take each "individual" and treat accordingly.

Having worked in Ultrasound, I know much of the matters dealing with genetics counseling. Since I am not an Ashkenazi jew, there are things I don't have to worry about. I also understand that I don't have to worry about being a carrier for sickle cell or hemophilia. Certain populations have other risks.

This is not what Proposition 54 is about. Prop 54 is about requiring a person to state racial identification on state documents. It seeks to ensure that the race isn't treated, but the problems are treated, regardless of race.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[gjhdiver 0]

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I got it the first time, oh code-wrangler.

You gotta love a company firewall that queues up stuff and then resends it for you. Oh well, if my pearls of wisdom were good the first time, they're three times better now.

[Deuce 1]

Quote

Ashkenazi

Isn't that the wizard's prison in the Harry Potter books?

[Nightingale 0]

without the racial information, the state may not be able to identify that a problem even EXISTS, much less do anything about it.

Take, for example, the apartment complex I worked at.

If...

1. the state doesn't know how many Mexican-Americans live in the area (something like 70% of the population)
2. the state doesn't know how many Mexican-Americans live in the apartment complex (2%, or 6 apartments out of 300 or so)

The state would never be able to tell that there is a discrimination issue going on... which, THERE IS! The manager directly discouraged his staff from leasing to Mexican-Americans. Its illegal. A crime is being committed... but without racial data, THERE IS NO PROOF. Without the racial data, the crime cannot be prosecuted, and therefore, goes unpunished, and is permitted to continue... get it?

[billvon 2,434]

>My point is that doctors treat people on the basis of the symptoms
> and signs. The patient's clinical history, combined with test results,
> and then the consent of the patient, detemine the treatment
> modalities.

AND race, religion and ethnicity. If you get a 6 month old Ashkenazi jew in your ER, and he's having developmental troubles, better do a Tay-Sachs assay. And if two Ashkenazi jews are planning on having a child, that assay is WAY more important to do than on, say, a Chinese couple.

To ignore race, religion and ethnicity makes diagnoses less accurate, and puts the patient at risk for misdiagnosis.

>This is not what Proposition 54 is about. Prop 54 is about requiring a
> person to state racial identification on state documents. It seeks to
> ensure that the race isn't treated, but the problems are treated,
> regardless of race.

Thank god it wasn't in place when they were trying to figure out why Ashkenazi jews were having so many of their children die. Since they DID collect information on racial and religious backgrounds, we can now save the lives of their children by counseling them better beforehand. (Interestingly, that job used to fall to their rabbi.)

There are diseases that are related to certain races, ethnicities and religions. The knowledge of their relative frequency, and the relative risks to the patient, saves lives. To pass a law prohibiting any study of how those diseases affect different groups means, to put it bluntly, more sick and dying people in the future.

[lawrocket 3]

That's a brilliant article, and the suggestion is something that we see every day. There are differences between people and individuals. And yes, my risk of skin cancer is 100 times what a dark skinned African's would be.

Ob/gyn's perform certain tasks. I worked in fetal ultrasound, and I happened to deal mainly with high risk pregnancies. In fact, California has the AFP program, which tests mothers to determine the risks of certain types of genetic issues, like trisomy-21 and spina bifida. This program is, in fact, a government sponsored eugenics program.

Some differences I've noticed? Fetuses with trisomy 21 have a tendency to display thinkening of the nuchal fold. They have a tendency to show echogenic chordae tendonae. There may be a corollation with increased pelvic angles. This does not matter if black of white.

Another one? Hispanic children have a tendency to show low femur length. Perinatologists know this. Prop 54 would not preclude this information.

The infomration that you speak of regarding this is typically first produced in peer-reviewed articles. Physicians will read about findings in NEJM and JAMS. Yes, you have a point that health-problems can be targeted by the government.

My point is that, in terms of applying for state university, or applying for a state loan, or submitting a bid for a government project, the state has no business knowing whether I'm white.

That's what Prop 54 is designed to prevent.

Wonderful response, though. You certainly have my thinking being moved towards your side.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[SkyDekker 1,145]

Quote

Having worked in Ultrasound, I know much of the matters dealing with genetics counseling. Since I am not an Ashkenazi jew, there are things I don't have to worry about. I also understand that I don't have to worry about being a carrier for sickle cell or hemophilia. Certain populations have other risks.

But if you would have never been able to record that information, you wouldn't even know this. You wouldn't be able to send targeted information to those people at risk if it turns out that an ethnic group is at risk due to a genetic issue.

You talk about treatment, but doesn't prevention work better than treatment. How will prevention work under this scenario?

How would you be able to send targeted, prevention information regarding sickle cell anemia?

Women suffer the far majority of breast cancer cases. How would you be able to run prevention programs if you cannot identify who is male and who is female?

It still makes no sense to me.

[Steel 0]

If you can't note if they are Mexican or maybe Hong Kong Chinese or Cuban.

------------------------------------------------------------
I really don't mean to be prick here but I just couldn't resist responding to this. Having grown up in Union City, NJ, lived in Miami, Florida and therefore attended grammar school, high school and college with a very significant amount of Cubans (the majority in high school and grammar school), I can say without any hesitation that I never met a Cuban American whose parents came in the 60's that did not speak fluent (not broken) English by the time he graduated high school. A lot of the older Cubans that are now 70+ years old did not learn English when they came here. But its very difficult for me to think of a Cuban under 70 who has been here for atleast 10 years that does not speak at the very least broken English. I can't think 100's of annecdotes about people from Hong Kong because I just don't have that much exposure to them. But I am willing to bet that they would be similar. I guess in the end what that means is that I do not support anytype of bilingual education or any type of special translaters that would take away the need for people to learn English.
I love languages. I speak four of them. But I am a strong believer that English is and should remain the national language and that anybody who wishes to live here should have to learn it or is responsible for providing their own translaters.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[TheAnvil 0]

OK I've had it with quoting for now. Even sparingly.

Again you bring up some decent points but race, culture, and the prevalency of racism are now where we disagree. I do agree with you that without this racial data discrimination will be harder to prove in court. That is by far and away the strongest argument for being against Prop.54. However, I feel that the good outweighs the bad here.

Let's see if I can answer a few of your points with out burdensome quotations.

I'm not a full time teacher, though I've lectured at the graduate level on spacecraft attitude, dynamics, and control. There's rumor I'm getting drafted to teach a course in that this quarter - fuck me very much - because a professor is in the hospital. I also tutor kids in calc, physics, and other things. Since I've forgotten more about statistics than most people ever knew in the first place, I don't think being a teacher is relevant to one's ability to interpret them.

Culture - and race are closely intertwined in many cases. Different companies have different cultures as well. Why should cultures be tracked? Yes - cultural differences DO affect a person's outlook on life. The standards of academic success are the same regardless of a person's culture. If that student and/or his parent choose not to meet those standards, it's THEIR own fault. Not the school's, not the state's, THEIR's. I've lived in Hawaii - near Kameamea actually - and know a bit about the Hawaiian culture. Extrapolating ANYTHING from data taken over there with regards to social issues here in the US is an exercise in futility. Horrible data pool from which to base one's conclusions.

Race and Racism - There will ALWAYS be idiots out there who judge people by their race and discriminate - illegal or not. Just like there have always been murderers, thieves, and other criminals. Prohibition has never worked and never will. At what point do we say enough is enough, race is no longer an excuse? I say it should have been years ago. I've lived in rural America and in the big cities and don't really see how anyone can say racism is prevalent today (with the exception of Memphis, TN where anti-white bigotry is prevalent).

Tracking racial data doesn't fix anything in itself. I've also seen discrimination in action - against both whites and non-whites - and tracking data does nothing to mitigate it. Active involvement by management in the immediate area can mitigate it.

Parents of schoolkids sometimes speak other languages - regardless of race. Russian, Norwegian, German, Lithuanian, Swedish - I could go on. This can be handled at the local level without tracking race. A county or city issue. No race involved. In the end it is the student that makes the choice to succeed or fail - parents and teachers can only motivate.

Gender is a topic which deserves a thread of its own. I've also seen gender discrimination in action - against males. Tracking does nothing to mitigate this. Direct involvement of managers, employees, and local folks can. Women make less than men? My college room-mate's wife makes $10K more than he does and they're both EE's at the same company! I think I've seen a few quotes about this and don't think any study I've read about really proved this to my satisfaction.

Data Tracking in General of race and gender disturbs me because it's most likely use will be to justify some discriminatory program. The data will be used by those who wouldn't know a Borel field from a tobacco field, an anchor chain from a Markov chain, or a Gaussian distribution from a tortoise to mislead people. I feel that if not tracking such data helps to end racial/sexual discrimination on the part of the government, it's worth doing.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[gjhdiver 0]

Quote

Quote

insult deleted. Cut it out

Dang! Having been on the recieving end of many-a-Holder insult

You mispelled "professional coaching".

bulb-headed shitbarge.

• Quote

[SkyDekker 1,145]

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I really don't mean to be prick here but I just couldn't resist responding to this. Having grown up in Union City, NJ, lived in Miami, Florida and therefore attended grammar school, high school and college with a very significant amount of Cubans (the majority in high school and grammar school), I can say without any hesitation that I never met a Cuban American whose parents came in the 60's that did not speak fluent (not broken) English by the time he graduated high school. A lot of the older Cubans that are now 70+ years old did not learn English when they came here. But its very difficult for me to think of a Cuban under 70 who has been here for atleast 10 years that does not speak at the very least broken English. I can't think 100's of annecdotes about people from Hong Kong because I just don't have that much exposure to them. But I am willing to bet that they would be similar. I guess in the end what that means is that I do not support anytype of bilingual education or any type of special translaters that would take away the need for people to learn English.
I love languages. I speak four of them. But I am a strong believer that English is and should remain the national language and that anybody who wishes to live here should have to learn it or is responsible for providing their own translaters.

Right and in the mean time the children of these people suffer because the parent and the teachers cannot communicate. Sounds like a great plan to me

On top of that, even if your assertion that everyone can speak broken English is true, that does not mean that significant conversations can be held in that broken English, so that makes that point mute.

Furthermore, this is kind of funny coming from a guy who is proud to be a pure of blood spaniard.

So are you a spaniard or an american?

[Nightingale 0]

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Quote

Ashkenazi

Isn't that the wizard's prison in the Harry Potter books?

No. That's Azkaban.

some Ashkenazi Jews carry a gene for a disease called Tay-Sachs, which is a autosomal recessive disorder (like sickle cell, you have to inherit the gene from both parents to have the disease, otherwise, you're a carrier). Children with Tay-Sachs lack an enzyme, and without this enzyme, a fatty substance (lipid) builds up in cells, especially brain cells, causing brain and nerve damage, and eventual death.

People have argued that Tay-Sachs is present outside the Ashkenazi Jewish population, but it has recently come to light that, for the most part, the disease among non-Ashkenazi Jews was actually Sandhoff disease, which is virtually unknown in the Ashkenazi Jewish population. The clinical progression of the disease is the same, but there are different genes and enzymes involved. We have only recently discovered that these are two different diseases that just happen to look the same without the appropriate testing.

In both cases, the child has initial normal development... however, if the child is a descendent of Ashkenazi Jews, the doctor will probably want to test for Tay-Sachs. If the child is not a descendent of Ashkenazi Jews, the child should be tested for Sandhoff instead.

[lawrocket 3]

Prop 54 does not prevent this study! History is very important, including the ethnicity, in diagnosing a problem.

Many Polynesians have problems processing certain kinds of fat efficiently. Would Prop 54 prevent this study? No, it would not.

The dangers of Phen-Fen were discovered by an ultrasound tech in Minnesota who noticed she'd been doing a lot of heart valves lately. She got together with a doctor, and charts were reviewed, which demonstrated they'd all taken weight loss meds. This was published, peer reviewed, and lawyers made a lot of money on it.

The government warns Ashkenasi Jews of the dangers of Tay-Sachs. Doctors warn them, as well. Prop 54 would not prevent this information from going out, nor will it prevent study of these issues and the dissemination.

What it will prevent are requiring a race on a home loan application (unfortunately, blacks are turned down at alarming rates) and for credit applications (unfortunately, blacks are greatly victimized in lending) and in bids for public projects. Maybe it will prevent racial identification on rental agreements, too.

Is this bad? Is this dangerous? Will the prevention of this profiling be bad?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[SkyDekker 1,145]

Quote

I've lived in Hawaii - near Kameamea actually - and know a bit about the Hawaiian culture. Extrapolating ANYTHING from data taken over there with regards to social issues here in the US is an exercise in futility. Horrible data pool from which to base one's conclusions.

All right, I'll make it easy for you then. Please tell me how that isuue could have been resolved without recognizing and noting racial/ethnic issues?

Quote

Race and Racism - There will ALWAYS be idiots out there who judge people by their race and discriminate - illegal or not. Just like there have always been murderers, thieves, and other criminals. Prohibition has never worked and never will. At what point do we say enough is enough, race is no longer an excuse? I say it should have been years ago.

So by just not allowing people to note race, there will be no racial problems? Or since racism will be nect to impossible to prove in a court of law, the problem will go away. Never ficgured you for an ostrich.

Quote

Tracking racial data doesn't fix anything in itself. I've also seen discrimination in action - against both whites and non-whites - and tracking data does nothing to mitigate it. Active involvement by management in the immediate area can mitigate it.

Active invovment however is impossible if you cannot define the problem further than just discrimination. Tra cking the date does not solve the problem by itself. Statistics do nothing by itself, but the knowledge that can be derived from statistics can help in designing a solution. Not having data is not the same as not having a problem.

Women make less than men? My college room-mate's wife makes $10K more than he does and they're both EE's at the same company! I think I've seen a few quotes about this and don't think any study I've read about really proved this to my satisfaction.

Quote

So because you know one female who makes more than her male counterpart this somehow proves anything? I thought you knew something about statistics?

Data Tracking in General of race and gender disturbs me because it's most likely use will be to justify some discriminatory program.

Quote

Can you back that up with any facts or is that just an assumption you are making?

I feel that if not tracking such data helps to end racial/sexual discrimination on the part of the government, it's worth doing. ***

Even if it increases the risk of more people dying deaths that could have otherwise been prevented?

[billvon 2,434]

>Many Polynesians have problems processing certain kinds of fat
>efficiently. Would Prop 54 prevent this study? No, it would not.

It would not prevent the actual study, per provision F of the proposition. It would hinder a social worker from finding out how many Polynesians eat such fats in his area.

>What it will prevent are requiring a race on a home loan application . .

It will also prevent a minority from taking action against a lender who lends only to whites. After all, the data that _shows_ they lend only to whites is now illegal to collect.

When I first heard about 54 I supported it. But after I read it, I realized that it only prevents collection of racial data. There is nothing wrong with knowing what race someone else is, or where they live, or what they do. There IS something wrong with treating someone differently based on that result. 54 will remove information on race from people who use that information for bad (i.e. deciding not to move somewhere, or open a store somewhere, based on racial data) and for good (i.e. activists who determine that blacks are always turned down for loans.) I vote against laws that have the potential for both good and bad; we have enough laws without adding a maybe-good maybe-bad law to the mix.

[Keith 0]

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Like I said earlier, it is nice to know you have a problem, but that is only the first step. Then comes the difficult part: finding a solution. Racial and/or ethnic and/or gender information is needed to effectively design solutions.

I really don't see what the problem is with that.

The problem is, if we are allowed to continue gathering such data we can continue to prove discrimination. Heaven forbid we should admit we are far from an equal society, and that big business right-wingers like it that way.

Keith

Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville

[Steel 0]

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Right and in the mean time the children of these people suffer because the parent and the teachers cannot communicate. Sounds like a great plan to me
------------------------------------------------------
Actually if you followed me carefully you would see that the Cubans speaking broken English are my parents age and that the Cuban speaking English as a native language are my age. I can also say from experience that I did not suffer from a lack of translaters. If the people I grew up with in my same situation suffered because of that then it certainly does not show up in the national statistics. Here you might want to read that article that I posted the address for to Jeanne http://www.asianweek.com/2000_04_27/opinion_voices_rodriguez.html
====================================
On top of that, even if your assertion that everyone can speak broken English is true, that does not mean that significant conversations can be held in that broken English, so that makes that point mute.
---------------------------------------------------------
Ok I already covered who was speaking the broken English above.
====================================
Furthermore, this is kind of funny coming from a guy who is proud to be a pure of blood spaniard.

So are you a spaniard or an american?

-----------------------------------------------
lol, I like this question cause it feels wierd just stating it but since you asked, that gives me the opportunity. The answer is both and don't forget to throw Cuban in there somewhere. I was born in Spain and all my ancestry comes from there so that is where Spain comes in. My parents were born in a free Cuba in the 40's and most of there socialization process took place there so they have a Cuban way of thinking (from Cuba before communism). That way of thinking was a major influence in my growing up. Then I grew up in the U.S. by teachers of all different European descents who all had one common thread their nationality was identified as American, just as mine is. Being American means a lot. The American way of life is not duplicated anywhere else in the world. I have traveled to 18 different countries and Canada certainly comes the closest. But even there it is clear that you are not in the U.S. {everytime you go to purchase something and get jacked with an extremely high sales tax comparitively speaking} So the core of my thinking economically speaking is American. View on gender, marriage, relationships, social non-economic issues, etc. is generally Cuban. My true bloodline is Spanish and Spain had a major influence in Cuban-Creoles becoming who they were.
If I had to pick one {which I don't} I would pick American.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[lawrocket 3]

Quote

I vote against laws that have the potential for both good and bad; we have enough laws without adding a maybe-good maybe-bad law to the mix.

I agree with you there for the most part. But the way it is now is, in my opinion, worse than it would be under Prop 54. Every law has it's good and bad. I would like to see if this works, since there is clearly so much animosity towards the status quo.

And as far as the polynesian part goes - it will prevent the social worker from tallying the eating of these fats. But it won't prevent the doctor from doing it. And she, the doctor, is the part of this link that is missed. And the best source of this information.

My wife is hotter than your wife.