Guantanamo captive may be freed

[mikkey 0]

Interesting story from Reuters below.

Questions that come to my mind:

1) If individual prisoners get released without any proceedings, what does it say about the claim that all prisoners in GB are high level terrorists and we should not be worried about the lack of legal rights.

2) I am surprised that the administration can get away with the way they treat these prisoners (of which a number now seems to be either innocent or "small fries"). Americans are supposed to be very focussed on the rights of the individual and protection against government abuse?

3) What do you say to people who get released after have beeing held in a high security facility for 2 years for no reason, no contact to a lawyer, no contact to family, no visits, no charges etc. etc..... "bad luck?"

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Swedish Guantanamo captive may be freed
Stockholm
November 18, 2003


The United States would free a Swede held at Guantanamo Bay if Sweden made sure he did not engage in terrorism, a Swedish newspaper has reported.

A Western diplomat said the report on Sunday could signal a policy shift aimed at defusing criticism of President George Bush's war on terror in the run-up to his campaign for re-election next year.

Swedish foreign ministry spokesman Jan Janonius said negotiations about Mehdi-Muhammed Ghezali, a 24-year-old Swede held captive for almost two years at the US military base in Cuba, were under way, but that Washington had not yet come up with any concrete proposal.

The daily Svenska Dagbladet quoted an unnamed senior US official as saying Washington wanted to set in motion a process that would see Sweden take responsibility for Ghezali, one of about 660 prisoners, including Australians David Hicks and Mamdouh Habib who have been held without charge or access to lawyers. The prisoners, most of whom were captured during the war in Afghanistan, are suspected by the Pentagon of having links with al-Qaeda.

"We have talked along those lines," Carl-Henrik Ehrenkrona, the Swedish foreign ministry's head of legal affairs, told Svenska Dagbladet. Ghezali's father, a Muslim of Algerian origin, has repeatedly urged the Swedish Government to do more to secure his son's release, saying he was in Pakistan to study Islam and had nothing to do with al-Qaeda. Mr Bush, who visits Britain this week, told the BBC he was working closely with Prime Minister Tony Blair to resolve Britain's concerns on the issue.

- Reuters

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[freeflir29 0]

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What do you say to people who get released after have beeing held in a high security facility for 2 years for no reason

Uuumm........how many other Armies would have just executed them on the battlefield and claimed they didn't survive the combat? No Reason? Are you high?????

[Jib 0]

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he was in Pakistan to study Islam and had nothing to do with al-Qaeda.

Is Pakistan really a hot bed for Islamic studies?

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the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[turtlespeed 212]

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1) If individual prisoners get released without any proceedings, what does it say about the claim that all prisoners in GB are high level terrorists and we should not be worried about the lack of legal rights.

OH NOOOO!!! That means that they must have already had a trial for him and he won!

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[freeflir29 0]

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Is Pakistan really a hot bed for Islamic studies?

Yes...did you have a question on that?

[gmanpilot 0]

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Is Pakistan really a hot bed for Islamic studies?

Pakistan is/was the default host nation for terrorist charm schools.

_________________________________________
-There's always free cheese in a mouse trap.

[mikkey 0]

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Uuumm........how many other Armies would have just executed them on the battlefield and claimed they didn't survive the combat? No Reason? Are you high?????

Well, I do not expect the US to behave like this or we have to invade them....

One of the problems is that due to the lack of due process and transparency, we do not even know where and how those prisoners were "picked up". There was not much of "old fashioned" battlefield there. A few months ago the Americans released some prisoners who had nothing to do with the Taliban or Al Qaeda. One of them was a taxi driver from Kabul.

This is the problem. You want to defend "freedom" and "free" other people from tyranny and injustice? Well try to start with basic rights for your own prisoners even if there are many scum bags among them.

America should be about protecting freedom, justice and human rights. As long as even only a handful of prisoners in GB are innocently held it is a major embarrassment and disappointment if you believe in human rights and a fair justice systems.

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[mikkey 0]

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OH NOOOO!!! That means that they must have already had a trial for him and he won!

No it does not. Seems the guys is a small fish and it took them 2 years to find out.....

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[freeflir29 0]

Aww fuck......Don't get me started. Human Rights? Have any of them been killed, dismembered, tortured? No. Why don't we send them to vote in Sierra Leone so the RUF can cut their hands off. It's a war....they are lucky to be alive. I doubt that guy was "A taxi driver from Kabul." He may have been fairly innocent but if he was captured in an offensive he was a bit more guilty than that.

[freeflir29 0]

Oh...one other thing...you can stop with trying to portray the US like a bunch of villians. Let's look at it on this scale. Check into a couple of wars in West Africa or what the Russians did in Chechnya or Afghanistan. We have been and continue to be quite humane.

[billvon 2,435]

While I disagree with the policy of holding people in limbo forever, this news article doesn't directly relate to that. If New York extradites a prisoner to Arizona to stand trial there, it's not releasing him - it's just moving him to another place to face justice there.

I think there is a good chance that most of the people in Guantanamo Bay are guilty of pretty vile crimes. The issue is not that they were held for a long time or even that they are POW's - it's that they are being held in secret, with no access to anyone who might help them prove their innocence. If 80% of the people there are terrorists, put them on trial and then execute them - just give the other 20% the chance to prove their innocence in a courtroom (or even a military tribunal.)

>3) What do you say to people who get released after have beeing
> held in a high security facility for 2 years for no reason, no contact
> to a lawyer, no contact to family, no visits, no charges etc.
> etc..... "bad luck?"

Depends on whether the country he is sent to executes him, puts him on trial or just plain lets him go.

[storm1977 0]

If a US citizen fights for another country or joins a forign legion, he/she looses all their US constitutional rights while in their service. So, if an enemy from a foriegn country is fighting the US why do they get the civil and constitutional rights of american?

Just a question.

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[billvon 2,435]

>So, if an enemy from a foriegn country is fighting the US why do they
>get the civil and constitutional rights of american?

They don't. They get the rights that we agreed to for POW's under the Geneva Convention - the same rights we expect our POW's to be afforded.

[freeflir29 0]

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They get the rights that we agreed to for POW's under the Geneva Convention - the same rights we expect our POW's to be afforded.

Uuummm....I don't think we ever signed that....although we do try to follow it and are the first ones to jump up and down if our POW's don't get the benefits.

[mikkey 0]

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Aww fuck......Don't get me started. Human Rights? Have any of them been killed, dismembered, tortured? No. Why don't we send them to vote in Sierra Leone so the RUF can cut their hands off. It's a war....they are lucky to be alive. I doubt that guy was "A taxi driver from Kabul." He may have been fairly innocent but if he was captured in an offensive he was a bit more guilty than that.

Well, if your "moral / ethical" yard stick are countries in Africa and anything below physical torture is fine for anybody non-American etc. then we do not need to discuss. Just reminding you that according to GWB the US and its allies are in Iraq to promote democracy, human rights and justice. You do not seem to agree. Wonder what you think if this happened to a US citizen.

And yes - the Kabul taxi driver case is well documented. There has been a well-researched BBC documentary on him and others held by the US. He had actually been prosecuted by the Taleban and ended up as a terrorist suspect held for 18 month or so.... released without an apology.

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[bodypilot90 0]

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What do you say to people who get released after have beeing held in a high security facility for 2 years for no reason, no contact to a lawyer, no contact to family, no visits, no charges etc. etc..... "bad luck?"

well you hang with a$$holes, you end up in shit

[mikkey 0]

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Oh...one other thing...you can stop with trying to portray the US like a bunch of villians. Let's look at it on this scale. Check into a couple of wars in West Africa or what the Russians did in Chechnya or Afghanistan. We have been and continue to be quite humane.

You are setting the yard stick very low... Just because somebody behaves worse then you don't make things right.

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[freeflir29 0]

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You are setting the yard stick very low... Just because somebody behaves worse then you don't make things right.

I'll go on the record. I think an invasion of Iraq probably needed to be done. However, I think it was VERY bad tactical timing. That being said....OK....so we make you President of the US. How would you fix it? Pull out of Iraq? OK....who has the guns in Iraq? There are two kinds of people in Iraq right now. Outlaws that have guns and "regular people" that just want to live life. Who do you think will take power? What do you think the result will be? I suppose you think we should be like the Aussie troops in Bouganville?

[billvon 2,435]

>That being said....OK....so we make you President of the US. How
> would you fix it? Pull out of Iraq?

That's the $64,000 question. I think the only answer is to stick it out and wait until a new government can stand on its own. I hope we have the political will to do that. It will be difficult politically, especially as US casualties mount - and they will mount. I hope we don't pull out early to win an election, and I hope pulling out doesn't become a political football for presidential and legislative candidates. (Of course, it will, but I can always hope.)

Appended to add - we may also have to accept help on this, and that may be painful for us to do. No one is going to like giving up control of Iraq to an organization like the UN. But that may in the long run lead to the most stable Iraq and the fewest overall US casualties.

[mikkey 0]

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>3) What do you say to people who get released after have beeing
> held in a high security facility for 2 years for no reason, no contact
> to a lawyer, no contact to family, no visits, no charges etc.
> etc..... "bad luck?"

Depends on whether the country he is sent to executes him, puts him on trial or just plain lets him go.

Well, AFAIK all prisoners released so far have not been prosecuted afterwards. So does seem they were just unlucky to be somewhere at the wrong time (again we do not know how these guys were picked up).

The article in question mentions that Sweden just neeeds to ensure that the guy in questions does not get involved in terrorism. Sure this means he won't be jailed. I read this as that he probably was a Taleban supporter but probably was not picked up "fighting".

BTW I should mentioned that there are persistent rumours that a number of prisoners were NOT picked up in "action"/on the battlefield but arrested as suspects in civilian surroundings - some even in Pakistan.

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[mikkey 0]

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I'll go on the record. I think an invasion of Iraq probably needed to be done. However, I think it was VERY bad tactical timing. That being said....OK....so we make you President of the US. How would you fix it? Pull out of Iraq? OK....who has the guns in Iraq? There are two kinds of people in Iraq right now. Outlaws that have guns and "regular people" that just want to live life. Who do you think will take power? What do you think the result will be? I suppose you think we should be like the Aussie troops in Bouganville?

Iraq is a different discussion all together (the prisoners in GB were picked up during the war in Afghanistan).

That aside. I was not totally opposed to the war in Iraq as such. I do however have a problem with how intelligence was used/misused (and the stories we were told by Governments). I have a problem with the planning, the timing and the lack of a real broad international coalition and the lack of UN involvement.

You are mentioning Aussie troops in Bourganville – let me take the example of East Timor. This action was fully co-ordinated with the UN – led by the Australians (with a lot of logistics support by the US). There was a post-conflict plan and the UN ran the civilian side successful until the new democratic Government could take over. Now – I know this was a very different situation – but it goes to the core of the problem.

What I would do right now? Well, it has been mentioned before in other threads:

1) Get more non-US troops in (even if it means eating humble pie)
2) Get the UN to run the civilian side (even if it means less contracts to US companies)

You cant’ pull out now. But going in “hard” as they have done the last few days might backfire. I have heard that results have not been good (not found much) – and that a lot of Iraqis are very upset about the “hard line”.

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[freeflir29 0]

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You cant’ pull out now. But going in “hard” as they have done the last few days might backfire. I have heard that results have not been good (not found much) – and that a lot of Iraqis are very upset about the “hard line”.

Agreed...but here we get to something called "FID." Foreign Internal Defense. Big shows of blowing up houses, buildings, towns, only piss people off. The real answer is being able to "connect" with the population and slip in during the night, hauling away the jackasses that are shooting at US troops. They need to unleash the "Dogs" and get back to the business of winning an insurgency.

[gmanpilot 0]

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Well, if your "moral / ethical" yard stick are countries in Africa and anything below physical torture is fine for anybody non-American etc. then we do not need to discuss. Just reminding you that according to GWB the US and its allies are in Iraq to promote democracy, human rights and justice.

I don't care which yardstick you use. We liberated the Iraqi people from a madman who violated the Genocide Convention on his own populace, invaded two neighboring states, openly financed suicide bombings, produced and used mustard gas, VX, Sarin, and others while seeking and nearly acquiring nuclear capacity, and yes, he was within easy reach of 9 percent of the worlds energy reserves.

Yes, we did the right thing.

_________________________________________
-There's always free cheese in a mouse trap.

[storm1977 0]

So, why are the courts trying to say we need to Charge these people with something????

Why can't we just hold them in camps forever?

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[billvon 2,435]

>So, why are the courts trying to say we need to Charge these people
>with something????

I'm not the courts, so I don't know. I'm saying either charge them and prosecute them or treat them as POW's.

>Why can't we just hold them in camps forever?

Because we signed the Geneva Convention, and that means we have to treat them a certain way. That includes parts 70-72 about letting them communicate with the outside world (subject to censorship), part 118 about releasing them when hostilities against their country are concluded, and part 122 about maintaining and providing basic information about them (i.e. their names, ranks etc) to the outside world. It also means they are under no obligation to cooperate with their captors.

So what war are we still fighting? If we are holding Taliban we're under obligation to release them to the new government of Afghanistan. If we're going to claim they're all part of a vauge war on terror, which moves from country to country depending on who we're invading recently, then that's a dangerous precedent to set. And even if we _do_ do that we have to afford them the basic protections of POW's including the ability to communicate with the outside world.

Or we can ignore the Geneva conventions and just hold them forever - and our servicemen will be afforded the same treatment the next time _they_ are captured by someone. Easy to do, perhaps, if you're not the one at risk, but I think it's a mistake in the long run. We, of all people, should be supporting the treaties we agreed to follow.