Waco, Texas 1993 FBI standoff [long]

[happythoughts 0]

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The issue is that it did not need to get to this point.

True. As part of the FBI surveillance, they watched him have breakfast in a local diner twice a week.

Better scenario? FBI arrests him having breakfast (unarmed). Everyone in the compound gives up peacefully at the request of Koresh. No one dies.

Why wasn't that done?

[DJL 232]

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Post: The result was a lot of innocent people being killed. This was necessary.


WTF?

Ack!! Supposed to be a "n't" on the end of that "was."

The result was a lot of innocent people being killed. This wasn't necessary.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[DJL 232]

Read my posts again. I agree with you. This didn't need to happen. The ATF triggered a group who were willing to take innocent lives with them in suicide pacts.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[lawrocket 3]

I recall seeing the images of the raid on the news that night. I remember seeing the ATF agent get shot up.

Why? Because the press was invited to see the raid. They could have gotten Koresh peacefully at the diner, but that wouldn't make good press, would it? This was supposed to be a suspenseful moment, where the press would show that the government means business.

Too bad the ATF, FBI and the Attorney General's office did not take into consideration the people in the compound. I felt pretty bad for those federal agents that were killed. They were pawns in a public relations dream that became a nightmare.

How much longer will it be before the lessons from Ruby Ridge and Waco are forgotten?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[mnischalke 0]

In addition to dining off his property, he also ran regularly outside Mt. Carmel.

(here's the kicker) Koresh was out shooting his "bad guns" WITH "undercover" BATF agents within TWO DAYS of the standoff at Mt. Carmel. Koresh was out and about and went to investigate some shooting on adjacent land. He met the "undercover" agents while they were having a little target practice during the surveillance on Mt. Carmel. He joined in the target practice, even though he suspected they were BATF agents. He found out later he was right...when they murdered him.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[pds 0]

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oh give me a break. They were fundamentalist wackos anyway. They would have killed themselves before giving up. BESIDES, they COULD have just walked out of the building and surrendered.


Hey buddy, want some kool aid?

i have to wonder how old you are and just what exactly you have BEEN TOLD about the siege at waco. it is not an encouraging story but it would serve you to inform yourself.

good luck.

namaste, motherfucker.

[mnischalke 0]

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The ATF triggered a group who were willing to take innocent lives with them in suicide pacts.

That's laughable. Please show me any definitive evidence of suicide. (you can leave out the suicide by cop theories.)

The Davidians were exercising their rights, as outlined in the Constitution of the United States of America and the Bill of Rights. The government just decided that leaving no witnesses was a better choice than possibly creating martyrs.

Sometimes when you are knee-deep in shit with video cameras rolling, you either get out or start shoveling "fertilizer."

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[DJL 232]

"That's laughable. Please show me any definitive evidence of suicide. (you can leave out the suicide by cop theories.) "

There is none. You're missing my point. Read my previous posts. The ATF provoked them into a stance that there was no out other than death. They could have surrendered but they were shown that the ATF would rather shoot than arrest. Pressed for a speedy conclusion the ATF began ramming and gassing the compound. A fire broke out and everyone died. Those who fought against the ATF commited doomed themselves by not surrendering immediately, they endangered the lives of everyone inside. The ATF, in the same way caused the deaths of everyone inside.

Now, as for suicide other than the figurative sense. Koresh did teach and preach suicide as a means. Proving this happened or didn't happen is like proving that aliens DON'T exist. The physical proof isn't there or is tainted. Koresh was NUTS and was manipulative. Prove that he wasn't.

http://www.rickross.com/groups/waco.html

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[mnischalke 0]

ahhhh, excellent resource (emphasis added):

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The Ross Institute (TRI) is a nonprofit, tax-exempt organization devoted to public education and research. TRI's mission is to study destructive cults, controversial groups and movements and to provide a broad range of information and services easily accessible to the public for assistance and educational purposes.

Maybe the folks at the Ross Institute needs to realize that being part of a "cult" is protected by the First Amendment. Glad to hear they propogate the idea the burning of the compound was "mass suicide."

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Koresh was NUTS and was manipulative. Prove that he wasn't.

Guilty until proven innocent, eh? That's one of my favorite concepts of the "New America."

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[78RATS 0]

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The government just decided that leaving no witnesses was a better choice than possibly creating martyrs

you really believe the decided to kill every one?

Rat for Life - Fly till I die
When them stupid ass bitches ask why

[DJL 232]

"being part of a "cult" is protected by the First Amendment. "

Education, research, study, and destructive are the key words there. They don't say anything about banning them. Koresh had sex with kids, I'd call that destructive.

"the burning of the compound was "mass suicide." "

Yeah, I read that one with a grain of salt. Pointless of them to make that claim. It was obviously not a Jonestown scenario.

"Guilty until proven innocent, eh? That's one of my favorite concepts of the "New America." "

That goes with my comment about proving that Aliens don't exist. But really, I think he was nuts. At least tell me I'm wrong and why. He fucked little kids and taught them how to kill themselves. Jury says, "Guilty of being nuts."

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[mnischalke 0]

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That goes with my comment about proving that Aliens don't exist. But really, I think he was nuts. At least tell me I'm wrong and why. He fucked little kids and taught them how to kill themselves. Jury says, "Guilty of being nuts."

According to one little girl who lost her mother in the fire, as written in an article, from the website you referenced, titled "Ten years after the mass suicide the memory of Koresh lives on."

Sorry, but this juror needs more evidence.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[mnischalke 0]

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you really believe the decided to kill every one?

According to the evidence, including method/timing of attack, yes.

It was a defining moment for Reno/Clinton.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[78RATS 0]

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It was a defining moment for Reno/Clinton

Even those two turds wouldn't wake up one morning and say kill em all.

Rat for Life - Fly till I die
When them stupid ass bitches ask why

[akarunway 1]

I just received a letter a couple days ago. The Fed's are taking over state child support responsiblitys. They want me in their new database

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[DJL 232]

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Sorry, but this juror needs more evidence.

Sure thing, Mike:
We'll start with a usdoj report.
http://www.usdoj.gov/05publications/waco/wacoseven.html
A typical newpiece
http://www.time.com/time/daily/newsfiles/waco/051793.html
From another former member:
http://www.fountain.btinternet.co.uk/koresh/bunds.html

Do we need more?

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[mnischalke 0]

Considering the calculated use of prevailing winds (constant air source) by punching holes in the up-wind end, combined with the use of a highly flammable powder (fuel) and incendiary grenades/pyrotechnics (ignition), somebody would have to be a blithering idiot to be in tactical command and not know the results of that combination on a predominantly wooden-framed building. Who made the call to "end it?"

Besides, big fires make for great video for the evening news--especially when combined with claims of illegal weapons, cults and child endangerment/molestation.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[78RATS 0]

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blithering idiot

no argument with you there. That's a far cry from intentional mass murder.

Rat for Life - Fly till I die
When them stupid ass bitches ask why

[mnischalke 0]

First reference: What else would you say in your report when you just murdered 86 people?

Second reference: What else would you give to the news media if you just murdered 86 people?

Third reference: What else would you say if word got out Koresh was banging your mom and your sister (who was of legal age and had a child with Koresh)? What would you say if your father stayed after the rest of the family left and was subsequently arrested as the stand-off began?

I think we're getting sidetracked. I don't think Koresh was a saint by any means. I don't remotely agree with the Davidian's beliefs or methods. I do know the BATF fabricated a skimpy report based on second-hand information about possible firearms/explosive component purchases. Rather than picking the man up on the street, the BATF/FBI used:

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Federal arrest warrant for VWH case number W93-17m (for Vernon Wayne Howell aka David Koresh) was issued in believe that he was in unlawful possession of an unregistered destructive device in violation of 26 USC.

Federal Search Warrant Case Number W93-15M (for Mount Carmel Center) was issued on the probable cause to believe that unregistered machineguns and destructive devices were being concealed in violation of both 18 and 26 USC.

If the government believed Koresh was guilty of a crime, they should have arrested and tried him, which they had ample opportunity to do (like the day before when he was out shooting with BATF agents). They should not have set out on a message mission for all to hear and heed: That going against your government in both behavior and beliefs would incite the swift, heavy hand of governmental justice.

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(Mark) Breault brought his allegations about Koresh and the Branch Davidians to the Australian television producers of "Current Affair." Reporter Martin King, who co-wrote Breault's book, visited Mount Carmel and interviewed Koresh in January of 1992. The program that eventually aired portrayed Koresh as a sex-crazed, gun-loving religious fanatic.

Maybe he was all that. Maybe he did have sex with children. Maybe he did plan for mass suicide. Does that validate the death sentence he and 85 others received?

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...in Dr. Gordon Melton's statement to the American Academy of Religion panel on the Branch Davidians: "As I examined the evidence of all the horrible things that Koresh had allegedly done, those horrible things began to melt away; they were unsubstantiated charges from witnesses who were biased and whose credibility was very low. The various accusations made had no foundation in fact. . .The question shifted to why did the government misuse its power in such a horrendous way?"

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[DJL 232]

I know we're getting sidetracked but I think you're trying to un-sidetrack now. I'm asking you why you're so interested in defending Koresh from accusations of child molestation. Devil's advocate?

I think we're covered the fact that everything there went wrong and the actions of the ATF resulted in pointless deaths. As I said in my very first post on this forum: How about instead of people just bashing their government that they do something about it. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=809081;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#809181 Nothing is going to get accomplished on a skydive forum except the exercise of bouncing ideas back and forth. I have personally learned a few thing from people's points of view, so bonus. Still, people should get involved or else nothing will happen.

Here's a link to my best friend's father's foundation that brings medical supplies to war zones that the U.S. doesn't deem worth of support:http://ndcf.org/

Sponsor a child: http://www.savethechildren.org/ Go ahead a click around, I gaurantee you can't help but pull out your credit card.

Fight the Death Penalty:
http://www.prejean.org/

Write to Congress:
http://www.congress.org/congressorg/home/

Support Civil Liberties:
http://www.ncpa.org/

PEACE, LOVE, UNITY, RESPECT.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[PhillyKev 0]

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I know we're getting sidetracked but I think you're trying to un-sidetrack now. I'm asking you why you're so interested in defending Koresh from accusations of child molestation.

I haven't seen anyone defend that. However, you seem to be implying that the proper course of action when confronting a child molester is to kill the child molester, and the children he was molesting.

[DJL 232]

You know what? You're right. That's what I said, that "we should kill child molesters and the kids too."

Ok, I'm going to go slap myself in the face now.

Out.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher