Christian Skydiving Association

[sunman 0]

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My prayer is that Christ will shine through me in actions and words, yet I never seem to do it well enough.

This is my point. If Christ really were alive in you, it wouldn't be that hard to do, would it? This Christian struggle that you have is not about the angel and demon on your shoulder. It's about the church repressing you and calling the things that you really want to do "sin", and then you do those things BECAUSE A PERSON IS SUPPOSED TO DO THOSE THIGNS AND THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH IT, and you think you're not being a good christian or something. One day I just said "fuck it" and I decided to do what I wanted for a change. (That was around the time I started skydiving.) I figured if sin is really that bad, then I'll come back to God. So I got drunk. I got high. I got laid. And you know what? It definately was not bad. Now I realize that I had been repressed my whole life, and I just wish I had gotten drunk, high and laid more often when I was younger. Oh well. I have the rest of my life to make up for lost time.

[brits17 0]

I might get slammed for soundin like a wishy-washy Christian over here, but hey I've gotten drunk, high, and laid and yeah its all good stuff. Heck yeah I'll have a drink (within reasonable limits) and enjoy the occasional puff . I'm 21, I'm enjoying life to the fullest no doubt. The Bible is clear on its boundaries of sin. It doesn't say drinking is bad, yet getting excessively drunk is. And it does not mention highness, so I'm going to leave that topic alone, hehe. And well the laid part... thats a toughie and without going into any personal details, yeah premarital sex is crossing Biblical boundaries... however can obviously be enjoying within those boundaries.

*sidenote* And dude of course I'm not imposing anything upon you, these are just my beliefs and I'm just statin my side of the story *end of sidenote*

As far as the struggle with sin goes... what about greed? Selfishness? The list could go on but I'm tired and going to bed. Hehe, hope this helps explain what I'm tryin to say. C ya!

_______________________
aerialkinetics.com

[Exegesis-Logos 0]

Thank you for taking some time to express your feelings. And I am sorry to hear you have had some bad experiences with these things. I know that can be painful, and discouraging. But let me encourage you to re-exmine things for just a bit, and I think that if you are honest with yourself, and you really want to find out truth, that you will find it. Seek and you will find.

I must clear up some things that have been said in your message.

“I agree with you that people define God based on what they believe him to be. But isn't that what you do as well? Your image of God is based on the traditions of early mesopotamians known as the Israelites.”

The point I was trying to distinguish here was belief vs. truth. It is not our job to define God, for God can speak for himself. And he has. He has revealed himself throughout history… and first and foremost to the Israelite people. Just because God, chose one group of people to reveal himself to first, does not mean that that group of people made him up. There is fact after fact to support historical claims made throughout the Bible. It is not about how you or I want to define God. God is. And it is simply up to us to discover who he is, not to determine it.

“ This tradition of beliefs changed and evolved to suit people's needs, and eventually we have a branch of this tradition ending in evangelical christianity.”

Christianity is not centered around tradition, nor did it evolve out of it. Christianity is about having a relationship with God, through the person of Jesus. Traditions are handed down from word of mouth. Jesus was a real person. The things that he did, that are recorded by historians in the Bible, actually happened. They are also confirmed through many other sources that are extra-biblical. We can look at this later. But the point is that Christianity is based on the fact of Jesus walking the earth and dying on the cross, and raising from the dead, which also is confirmed by other extra-biblical sources.

“ I know because I used to be what people called a "religious fanatic". But when I looked into it, I mean REALLY looked into it, christianity is just another religion.”

This is where I know that you are simply not being honest. Every person that has really studied Christianity, looking with an open mind for what is true, has come to the same conclusion. I am someone who has really looked at Jesus, the gospels, the evidence. I know others who have done the same. Take a man by the name of Josh Macdowell. He set out to do what you claimed you have done. Have you been to Israel? Have you seen the scrolls? Have you studied Greek and Hebrew, reading History as it was originally written? Maybe you have, maybe you haven’t. I know Josh did. And after setting out to show all the contradictions in the bible, and to prove that Christianity was just ‘another religion’, He became one of the greatest advocates or Christianity, authoring many books on his journeys. Maybe reading some of his books can help you with what you have been through.

“When I failed to see even one occurance of anything truly supernatural in my life, I began to wonder if I was just brainwashed.”

This is what I think this is all about. Because you failed to recognize the work of God in your life, you wrote it off as false. Your Life, my friend, is not about you. Think on these things.

“ I used to be quite the "christian apologist", one of those people who can give you 100 reasons why the bible must be true. But you know what? Can't be proved.”

The question here is, what can be proved? I am not sitting here and going to tell you that I can beyond a shadow of a doubt tell you that I can prove the Bible is true. But I can tell you that I show you evidence for it’s truth just as much as or better than anyone can show me evidence for the existence of Caesar, Alexander the Great, or even Christopher Columbus.
Do you know that George Washington was president? How do you know that? Do you actually know anyone who knows him? Who met him? Are you simply basing that knowledge on historical text evidence? Maybe even archeological evidence? Jesus Christ has the same evidence for him, and every scholar knows it. There is not one educated scholar out there who denies the existence of Jesus. Sure they differ in opinions about who he was, but they all know that he – was.

“ Know what else? These concepts of heaven and hell, angels, demons, the Holy Spirit, a man-god named Jesus who dies for the sin of the world, and God creating the world in 7 days... do you know how ridiculous that sounds to people who don't believe?”

It sounds pretty ridiculous to me that a group of people could let a man take over their nation, convince them to hate Jews, and proceed on killing over 6 million of them. That sounds absolutely ridiculous to me. But it doesn’t mean it’s not true. My perception of things does not change fact.

“What's even more ridiculous is the fact that I had to believe that everybody who does not believe in Jesus is going to spend an eternity in hell. This is a huge ignored logical contradiction! I mean, supposedly, God is perfect, and I'm slime. Actually, I can be a real dick sometimes, but I would never send anybody to hell for eternity just because they chose the wrong religion! But according to the bible, God will. How does that make him perfect? Now I know why whenever I shared my faith people laughed at me.”

This is where I know you are not a theologian, and that you really didn’t take the time to look into things, and really understand them. Before you question God on how he is fair in what he chooses to do, read Job 38-42 and answer the questions God has for you. Job was a man question why God did things they way he did as well. When you have answers to the questions God asks of you, then you can come to him and make claims on his view of Justice. His ways are not our ways, and his thoughts, not our thoughts. My finite existence cannot begin to understand the one who created it.

“ It seems like some crazy made-up story. Maybe that's because it is. The bible is not perfect. Even when I was a christian I knew that. But those apparent contradictions were always cleverly explained away. Well there's a better explanation. If this was a book inspired by God, then there would be no contradictions. The contradicitons are there because it was a book written by men and inspired by their own motives. How am I supposed to believe that the God that designed the universe expects me to believe that he authored or inspired a book that is full of mistakes? And how I am supposed to believe that if despite those mistakes, if I don't place my faith in the God that is described in that book, I go to hell forever? How am I supposed to believe that?”

Again these issues come to my original question. You ask, ‘how am I supposed to believe that’. I tell you – it doesn’t matter if you believe it or not… just like it doesn’t matter if you believe that you are going to be completely okay if you hit the ground without your chute. Believe it or not, if you don’t open your chute, and you meet solid earth, you will die. Your beliefs to not define what is real. What is, is, and you will have to face it sooner or later.

Doesn’t really matter what anyone believes… how they justify things…. Even if they don’t like how things actually are. All of it is vanity. That fact is that there is an ending to all of us, we live, and then we die. And no matter what excuses you make, what believe you have, what you think is fair, or how you validate it, you will stand before God and give account for yourself. No one has to take my word on this, not at all. You will see for yourself when you have lived all your life. When the last jump is made, and the last breath is taken. Then it is just you and God. And everyone who has read this is now responsible for what has been said. Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the light. Believe in him, and you will have eternal life. Reject him, and go ahead and enjoy the drunkess, drugs, and sexual fantasies you have. Because after your done, Your done. Now everyone who has seen this will be held accountable. When you stand before God, and you say ‘but I didn’t know….I thought it was…’ God will make you remember this day, and say to you… ‘I tried to tell you… but you said no to me.’

I wish you all the Best wishes in life. Chuteless, LuvToFly – See you in the kingdom… and I hope to see all of you there as well.

Be safe, and God Bless.

[Zenister 0]

you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the words truth and fact.

if your belief helps get you thru the dark night and enjoy the dawns, fine and good.
God wants you to enjoy his creation.

however the blood sacrifice of your carpenter is meaningless to many.

We are not damned.
We are not separated from God.
We never have been, and never will be.
Her word is everywhere, in everything, for everyone, not confined to the continually edited mythos of one of the bloodiest cultures on earth.

We do not believe in your mythos.
We do not mind if you do, but please don’t pretend we will someday see your version of 'truth'.

Sin, Judgment, and Hell are your myths, and you can keep them if it takes fear to motivate you to become more. it shouldn’t.

the only guilt you must accept is that you make today.

God doesn’t need your fear, or your boogiemen.
but she does love it when you sing and dance

God loves us, blesses us and speaks to us everyday, but he doesn’t call himself by the names you have chosen for him, no matter how often you repeat your same tired rhetoric to us.

ps. we really wish you'd quit.
ps. God does too. Why don’t you try asking her? then try listening this time.
No one needs it to find him and your bronze age dogma is only confusing them in the end.

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Your beliefs to not define what is real. What is, is, and you will have to face it sooner or later.

this is the only true statement you've made...
to bad you cant really see what it means...

but you can live in ignorance as often as you like...
just don’t expect me too..

enjoy the sky, joy is the reason for everything...

Divinity defies dogma

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Skyrad 0]

Thats between you and God, no one elses place to judge.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[JackC 0]

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No one has to take my word on this, not at all. You will see for yourself when you have lived all your life. When the last jump is made, and the last breath is taken. Then it is just you and God. And everyone who has read this is now responsible for what has been said. Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the light. Believe in him, and you will have eternal life. Reject him, and go ahead and enjoy the drunkess, drugs, and sexual fantasies you have. Because after your done, Your done. Now everyone who has seen this will be held accountable. When you stand before God, and you say ?but I didn?t know?.I thought it was?? God will make you remember this day, and say to you? ?I tried to tell you? but you said no to me.?

I am now utterly convinced that prolonged exposure to the wholly babble causes chronic delusional psychosis.

[PilotChick 0]

Greetings. I belong to the Christian Skydivers Association. Check out our website.

Is anyone interested in organizing a Christian Skydivers Association record jump? :-)

-- Pilot Chick

"TGIF! Thank GOD I Fly!"

[Nightingale 0]

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And well the laid part... thats a toughie and without going into any personal details, yeah premarital sex is crossing Biblical boundaries... however can obviously be enjoying within those boundaries.
C ya!

hmm.... bout all I remember the bible saying about premarital sex is that if a man "deflowers" a virgin, he has to pay her father a fee. Deuteronomy 22:28

The definition of adultry requires at least one of the parties to be married, so the commandment "thou shalt not commit adultry" isn't referring to premarital sex, but extramarital sex.

Corinthians 6:16 warns men against having sex with prostitutes.

Corinthians 6:18 warns against "sexual sin" but doesn't define it.

Corinthians 7:2 says "Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband."

The woman also with whom man shall lie with seed of copulation, they shall both bathe themselves in water, and be unclean until the even. Leviticus 15:18

so, the only passage I could find directly regarding sex says that if a man has sex with a woman, they're supposed to take a bath and be considered "unclean" until the evening.

perhaps there's some other stuff I missed, but that's all I could find at this time.

[PilotChick 0]

Exegesis. . . now THAT's a vocabulary-word-for-the-day! Cool! -mLw-

-- Pilot Chick

"TGIF! Thank GOD I Fly!"

[sunman 0]

Exe,
You seem to have made some assumptions about me that simply are not true. You seem to think that I never had an understanding of my faith or theology or that I've never read anything by Josh McDowell. Quite the opposite. First of all, let's just say that MANY people have made the search that McDowell has made and have come up with different conclusions. There's a book called "The Historical Jesus" by Crossan that is very interesting. There is also a book called "Who Wrote the Bible" that exposes the four different source documents buried in the Torah, and shows how the first part of the bible, at least, is authored by imperfect men for their own purposes. The point is that many different people write many different books, and it would be retarded to put your faith in any one of these authors. I am trying to look into discoveries and theories made by both christians and non-christians alike so I can make an informed decision.

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"Christianity is not centered around tradition, nor did it evolve out of it. Christianity is about having a relationship with God, through the person of Jesus.

You sound just like I used to sound. I used to live in a christian bubble and think that this was it, this is the truth. And I'll admit that the christian worldview makes perfect sense when you're in the thick of it. But when I poked my head out of that bubble and looked back at it, it didn't ring true with what I saw in reality. I don't see a cosmic struggle between good and evil. I just see people trying to live their lives, that's all.

Well, I'd love to continuing chatting, but it's a beautiful Wednesday morning and I have to go jump out of an airplane.

Later.

[flygirl03 0]

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Greetings. I belong to the Christian Skydivers Association. Check out our website.

Is anyone interested in organizing a Christian Skydivers Association record jump? :-)

-- Pilot Chick

"TGIF! Thank GOD I Fly!"

Hey, Any chance of getting a jump organized for WFFC????
I don't think I will be qualified to participate by then, but it would be great to see others do it .

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
earthbound misfit

[Skyrad 0]

Its an interesting post you wrote. Have you heard of the Alpha course? Nicky Gumbel is one of the preachers in my church, many a time I've heard him tell people that 'No one was ever argued to faith!' It's true as well, when was the last time you met a Christian who when giving his testamony said....'Well I used to be a atheist but then one day I had an argument with a Christian and I realised that he was right and I was wrong and thats how I found Christ'. Never, instead you get people saying things like this................ ‘I am now utterly convinced that prolonged exposure to the wholly babble causes chronic delusional psychosis.’ The best way to spread the good news is not with a megaphone in inchs from someones face but to live as Jesus lived and to show by example. This is not a critisism mearly an observation.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[PilotChick 0]

If someone organized a record jump of Christians. . . I would actually GO to the WFFC and jump with my Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

-- Pilot Chick

"TGIF! Thank GOD I Fly!"

[Skyrad 0]

Has anyone else noticed just how many people have viewed this thread! Guess theres alot of searching going on out there/

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[sweetjava77 0]

actually I was born in '81. I just like the number 77.

[RkyMtnHigh 0]

Beautifully put, Chris.

_________________________________________

[3ringheathen 0]

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This is where I know that you are simply not being honest. Every person that has really studied Christianity, looking with an open mind for what is true, has come to the same conclusion.

Oh boy.
It's really hard to be polite when someone posts something as absurd as this, but I'll try.

Exegesis: may I be so bold as to suggest that if it were true that everyone that truly studied Christianity reached the same conclusions as you, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

In fact, there would be very little disagreement at all.
As it is, even self described Christians can't agree on all that much, and millions more don't believe any of it, or believe in something that is mutually exclusive.

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I am someone who has really looked at Jesus, the gospels, the evidence. I know others who have done the same. Take a man by the name of Josh Macdowell.

Josh Macdowell's "research" ought to be embarrassing to any thinking Christian.
Here's a link to a web site that absolutely shreds his arguments and shows him to be either dishonest or dumb. I leave it to the reader to decide which:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/unique.html

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I can tell you that I show you evidence for it’s truth just as much as or better than anyone can show me evidence for the existence of Caesar, Alexander the Great, or even Christopher Columbus.

Want to put some serious money on that bet?
Pretty please? I could use a new base rig, a wingsuit, and a new camera.
How about a $4000 challenge?

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There is not one educated scholar out there who denies the existence of Jesus.

Duh. What's your point?
There's a huge difference between proof of the existence of a man named Jesus and proof of his divinity.

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My finite existence cannot begin to understand the one who created it.

Look at all the strange logic and concepts you have to use to defend your belief (in no particular order):

1) If it doesn't make sense, it's because I'm not as smart as god, I just don't understand.
2) The lord works in mysterious ways.
3) If you don't believe, you haven't truly studied the bible.

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Believe it or not, if you don’t open your chute, and you meet solid earth, you will die. Your beliefs to not define what is real. What is, is, and you will have to face it sooner or later.

Oh yeah:
#4) If all else fails, scare them into professing faith.

Whatever gets you through the day!
-Josh

If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me*
*Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

[sdgregory 0]

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actually I was born in '81. I just like the number 77.

huh? I think you mistook my sig line as a remark to you. Too funny.

[LuvToFly 0]

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If someone organized a record jump of Christians. . . I would actually GO to the WFFC and jump with my Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

That's a really good idea. -

Thanks Chris for the description of circumstances around the cross jump.

Anyone interested in putting together formations that express your faith - please send an email to:

[email protected]

We don't have to wait for an event like WFFC - there are also other venues and opportunities -

Please drop me a note if this is of interest to you, and I will send out info on some ideas around organizing jumps under this banner -

PM'd you PILOTCHICK


TOM

"The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment
of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky