Skyhook compatibility

[Throttlebender 0]

So I'm starting the preliminary research for a first rig, and I only have two real "must haves."
I want freefly friendly so I'm not limited on possibilities, and I want a skyhook.
my understanding is that Vectors and Javelins are the only containers that will tkae a skyhook. Is this true?

Life expands or contracts in proportion to one's courage. ~Anais Nin

[blacklabjumper 0]

no the aerodyne Icon sport offers it as well

Rodriguez Brother #1626
Dudiest Skydiver #1962
DPH #-2

[ChrisL 2]

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So I'm starting the preliminary research for a first rig, and I only have two real "must haves."
I want freefly friendly so I'm not limited on possibilities, and I want a skyhook.
my understanding is that Vectors and Javelins are the only containers that will tkae a skyhook. Is this true?

If you are looking for used gear, be aware that not all older vectors and javelins can be retrofit.

__

My mighty steed

[pilot-one 0]

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So I'm starting the preliminary research for a first rig, and I only have two real "must haves."
I want freefly friendly so I'm not limited on possibilities, and I want a skyhook.
my understanding is that Vectors and Javelins are the only containers that will tkae a skyhook. Is this true?

If you are looking for used gear, be aware that not all older vectors and javelins can be retrofit.

I don't think ANY rig can be retrofitted.

[theonlyski 3]

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So I'm starting the preliminary research for a first rig, and I only have two real "must haves."
I want freefly friendly so I'm not limited on possibilities, and I want a skyhook.
my understanding is that Vectors and Javelins are the only containers that will tkae a skyhook. Is this true?

If you are looking for used gear, be aware that not all older vectors and javelins can be retrofit.

I don't think ANY rig can be retrofitted.

Clicky

If NO rigs can be retrofitted, might wanna let those guys know!

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[pastramionrye7 0]

I was able to get a Skyhook retrofit on my Vector 3, DOM 2001. I had the work done in 2006. At the time I think UPT (then RWS) would perform the retrofit on any Vector 3. Mine did not have any RSL installed prior to the retrofit.

[pastramionrye7 0]

And you beat me to it. Thanks. Looks like the price went up a bit since I had the work done.

[pilot-one 0]

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I was able to get a Skyhook retrofit on my Vector 3, DOM 2001. I had the work done in 2006. At the time I think UPT (then RWS) would perform the retrofit on any Vector 3. Mine did not have any RSL installed prior to the retrofit.

My bad.
However Aerodyne does not retrofit the Icon. The container has a completely different yoke.

[Throttlebender 0]

Ok guys, I'm actually just as uncertain as when I posted

Life expands or contracts in proportion to one's courage. ~Anais Nin

[Throttlebender 0]

Well, I've just sent off an email to Bill Booth. I'm hoping to get a definitive answer from the source. I'll let you know what he says, if he replies.

Life expands or contracts in proportion to one's courage. ~Anais Nin

[brettski74 0]

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Well, I've just sent off an email to Bill Booth.

Asking him what?

I'm also curious about why you're so adamant about a skyhook. I have one and I've used it, too. I think it's great, but I wouldn't put it in the list of things that I absolutely, positively must have on a rig.

Buying a rig with a skyhook will likely mean buying something relatively new, brand new, or requiring several hundred dollars worth of rigging work to realize. There are plenty of great rigs out there at reasonable prices. Limiting yourself to skyhook equipped and/or capable rigs may restrict your options more than you need.

[Throttlebender 0]

It's just a safety option that I want on my equipment.

And I did get a reply to my email: Vectors, Javelins, and Icons will take a skyhook.

Now I know

Life expands or contracts in proportion to one's courage. ~Anais Nin

[brettski74 0]

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And I did get a reply to my email: Vectors, Javelins, and Icons will take a skyhook.

You already knew that, but are you buying used gear?

An older Icon without a skyhook cannot be retrofitted to take a skyhook.

The word from Sunpath when they first implemented the skyhook was that older rigs could not be retrofitted to have a skyhook. That was a few years ago, but don't know that anything's changed.

Vector 3 - the 3 is important. A Vector 2 will not take a skyhook and never will. A vector 3 (Micron or M-Series) without a skyhook will cost you about $400 for the retrofit, plus shipping back to UPT and back.

Basically, you're looking at a relatively new rig or one that may need several hundred dollars of rigging work to add a skyhook. The extra money you'll spend on a skyhook would be better spent on additional jumps, coaching and tunnel time figuring out what you want to do in this sport and how much you want to stick with it. Of all the people who went through the student program at my home DZ with me, there are only a couple left who are jumping regularly.

A skyhook is a good piece of kit, but for a first rig, I wouldn't limit yourself to only skyhook equipped rigs. That's my opinion - for what it's worth.

[Throttlebender 0]

I didn't already know that for sure....that's why I went to the source. Now I DO know.

And yes, he did mention the older vs newer containers and the retrofit.

You make good points and it's food for thought.
I just really like the extra safety of the skyhook especially since I'm still so green.

Thanks for the opinion though.

Life expands or contracts in proportion to one's courage. ~Anais Nin

[brettski74 0]

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I just really like the extra safety of the skyhook especially since I'm still so green.

All the more reason to spend your money on jumps, coaching and tunnel time. The piece of equipment that most often fails a skydiver is the grey squishy bit between the ears. You'll have a hard time finding many, if any, incidents that have been prevented by a skyhook or that may have been averted by having a skyhook. You'll find lots of incidents due to skydivers making bad choices, flying beyond their abilities and other human factors. If safety is your goal, your money would be better spent improving your knowledge and skills than on a piece of equipment that has a 1 in a million chance of being a deciding factor in an incident - unless perhaps you're a millionaire and money is no option.

[davelepka 4]

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You make good points and it's food for thought.
I just really like the extra safety of the skyhook especially since I'm still so green

An RSL does most of the work of a Skyhook, just a little slower and for a lot less money. Most 'bigger' used rigs will come with an RSL, and if not adding one is fairly inexpensive.

If you happen to find a used rig with a Skyhook, or are buynig new, you might as well go for it. If you're shopping for used rigs, however, finding the right combination of harness size, and main/reserve conatiner size can be tough enough. If you limit yourself to just Skyhook equipped rigs, or Vector 3s cheap enough for you to add the $400 for the retrofit, you might be looking for a long time.

You might be better off being open to a Skyhook, but not making it a deal breaker. Get your hands on a rig, and use it as often as possible. Be mindful of your experience level, and plan your skydives as such to include appropriate pull and hard deck altitudes. The Skyhook will have your reserve out a couple hundred feet quicker than an RSL, so if you need to cutaway below 300 or 400ft, the Skyhook may make the difference. Anything higher then that, and the RSL will do it's thing and you should have an open canopy before impact.

Of course, both are back up devices, so always pull both of your handles, and do it well above 300 or 400 ft, and you should have no problems.

As mentioned in another thread, just about any Jav, Infinity, Vector, Wings, Talon, Icon, or Mirage built in the last 10 years will be freefly friendly.

[klingeme 0]

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All the more reason to spend your money on jumps, coaching and tunnel time. The piece of equipment that most often fails a skydiver is the grey squishy bit between the ears. You'll have a hard time finding many, if any, incidents that have been prevented by a skyhook or that may have been averted by having a skyhook. You'll find lots of incidents due to skydivers making bad choices, flying beyond their abilities and other human factors. If safety is your goal, your money would be better spent improving your knowledge and skills than on a piece of equipment that has a 1 in a million chance of being a deciding factor in an incident - unless perhaps you're a millionaire and money is no option.

The same could be said for and AAD, but I still suggest people jump an AAD. Any skydiver that had a main cutaway and died with an uninflated (or underinflated) reserve could have been saved with a SkyHook, and I have heard of this plenty of times.

Mark Klingelhoefer

[davelepka 4]

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The same could be said for and AAD, but I still suggest people jump an AAD. Any skydiver that had a main cutaway and died with an uninflated (or underinflated) reserve could have been saved with a SkyHook, and I have heard of this plenty of times.

Indeed, but an RSL is a close second to a Skyhook, where an AAD is an 'all or nothing' proposition.

Like I mentioned above, the Skyhook is king under 300 or 400 ft. Above that, the RSL would do the trick just as well (in terms of having an inflated reserve before impact).

In the end, AADs, Skyhooks, and RSLs, all good ideas.

[Slurp56 0]

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The Skyhook will have your reserve out a couple hundred feet quicker than an RSL, so if you need to cutaway below 300 or 400ft, the Skyhook may make the difference.

Dave,

I know you've been around and jumping for a long time. I've seen you make many well thought out and informative posts. I generally tend to respect your opinion.

The bottom line is, if you believe that cutting away at 300-400 feet is a viable option, all these years of training have failed you, USPA training has failed you, and common sense has failed you. At 300-400 feet, you should be in "get as much fabric over your head as possible" mode. Even suggesting that the skyhook will save you from that scenario is a disservice to all skydivers, of any level, who read it.

This mentality about the skyhook is the marketing machine at work. It's my worst fear, and it will kill you. I apologize for singling you out, but I vehemently disagree with your opinion.

________________________________________
I have proof-read this post 500 times, but I guarantee you'll still manage to find a flaw.

[davelepka 4]

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This mentality about the skyhook is the marketing machine at work. It's my worst fear, and it will kill you. I apologize for singling you out, but I vehemently disagree with your opinion

Good catch. I did not mean what you think I meant, but I can see how you got the impression that you did, and I'm glad you pointed it out so I can correct it.

I was comparing the functionality of an RSL to that of a Skyhook, and one of the main features is that it gets the reserve out sooner than an RSL. The statement I made about cutting away to 300 or 400ft was meant to illustrate that the difference was moot unless you were in such a rediculous position as needing to cutaway at 300 or 400 ft.

I did follow up that statement with this one-

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Of course, both are back up devices, so always pull both of your handles, and do it well above 300 or 400 ft, and you should have no problems

- which was intened to convey that the differnce was indeed moot, and that you should always intiate your EPs by your hard deck, which should not be anywhere near 300 or 400 ft.

The point of what I was saying was to show the OP that the advatage of a Skyhook is slight when compared to the much less expensive, and much more commonly found RSL.

There is an aditional advantage to the Skyhook, that being the speed of the extraction is such that the jumper does not have a chance to spin or rotate before the reserve hit line strech. An RSL can sometimes allow spining or rotating before the reserve leaves the bag, resulting in line twists. That said, I cannot think of an incident involving a malfucntioned reserve reuslting from such spinning or rotating, just line twists, which is trivial at best.

To summarize - the main difference between a Skyhook and RSl is the extraction speed, but an RSl is fast enough that if you initiate your EPs above your hard the deck, the 100 or 200 ft the Skyhook would save is insignificant. If you should find yourself in a situation where the Skyhook will make the difference, you have made many mistakes leading up to that point, and need to re-examine your approach to skydiving.

The Skyhook is a 'better mousetrap', but not that much better. If you are buying a new rig, or a used rig with a Skyhook, good for you, but aside from that, an RSl will provide the same service at a lower cost with greater availablity.

For the record, I do not jump with a Skyhook nor an RSL. As a camera flyer, and high performance canopy pilot, it is a rare jump that I am throwing out my PC any lower 3500ft. As such the fucntionality of an RSl or Skyhook does not outweigh the risks of a reserve going around my camera helemt in an unstable deployment. I have adjusted my hard deck accordingly, and generally am under my main by 4000ft.

You were 100% right to point out the impression that I might have given in my post. It was not my intent, and I'm gald I got the chance to clear it up.

[NovaTTT 1]

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davelepka

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Like I mentioned above, the Skyhook is king under 300 or 400 ft. Above that, the RSL would do the trick just as well (in terms of having an inflated reserve before impact).

@ Slurp: +1

ETA: I see this has been addressed. Glad to see it, too.

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[Throttlebender 0]

I absolutely agree with relying on one's training and EPs, but when you say line twists are just an inconvenience of spinning at reserve deployment, I can't agree. I've been watching lots of video on malfunctions and the single biggest on I see is severe line twist at deployment followed by a downplaning spin and a cutaway. Far more than an inconvenience I'd say, and you still have one more chance at that point. Now deploy your reserve and have a repeat of this......dead.
I know I'm too new to know my ass from a whole in the ground, but if a skyhook can level that playing field and assure me of a twist-free reserve deployment, then that's an EASY choice to make.

In how many instances have reserves severely twisted because of unstable body position at deployment with or without a standard RSL? I've never seen any stats on this one.

Is my logic off here?

Life expands or contracts in proportion to one's courage. ~Anais Nin

[davelepka 4]

Yes, you are. Your reserve is a different type of canopy than a main. Even a 'moderate' performance main like a Sabre2 or Pilot is a MUCH higher performance canopy than an F-111, 7-cell fully square reserve. Add in a conservative loading, and you're dealing with a much different circumstance than you see on Youtube.

Many, many reseve deployments result in a line twist or two, and none that I have ever heard of have resulted in a spin into the ground. Even a barber pole on a stable canopy is just a matter of kicking out of them.

Try hunting for videos of BASE jumping line twists. This is what they will look like on a rererve as BASE canopies are very similar to reserves, as they are built with many of the same characteristics in mind.

You're thiking about a problem that doesn't really exist. Nothing can prevent line twists from happening to any canopy, but proper canopy selection can make them a non-issue. Did you have line twists on any of your jumps thus far? Did they result in a death spiral that you needed to cutaway from?

[Slurp56 0]

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if a skyhook can level that playing field and assure me of a twist-free reserve deployment, then that's an EASY choice to make.

...

Is my logic off here?

YES!

You can have line twists on a reserve deployment with or without a skyhook. The skyhook doesnt assure you of anything, it's not a magical device.

At this stage in the game for you, the internet and all of it's video's are the enemy.

________________________________________
I have proof-read this post 500 times, but I guarantee you'll still manage to find a flaw.

[Hellis 0]

One question.
What size of canopy are you looking at?

Im asume its a larger canopy.
And to get a linetwist on a large canopy is not a problem, it will more or less straighten itslf out.

I also bought Skyhook on my first rigg, looking back at it now it was not a bad choise but i dont think i would need it.
What i mean is the money i spent on the skyhook is not much compared to what the complete system costs, and it added that litle extra value.
But since larger canoys are very forgiving and slow, it is very unlikely that you would be in such a situation where the skyhook makes the difference.
Unless perhaps a canopy collision.