CanuckInUSA 0 #26 June 11, 2004 QuoteBTW, Steve, I got a package for you that I tried to give you last Friday night when I was at the DZ meeting Phil and Michael. You had already left, and missed out on a few beers and chips. Hmmm ... could it be something with a POPS # associated with it? Actually I was there at the DZ very late last Friday (night jumps), so I'm not sure why we didn't see each other. But I'm off to Twin Falls this weekend to hopefully safely flic myself off of the most-bodacious legal 486 foot span. So maybe we'll have to meet up somewhere else? Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #27 June 11, 2004 QuoteSo what is the skydiving equivalent to poping a "know it all " upside the head? Unfortunately it seems to be a femur break.......---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyangel2 2 #28 June 11, 2004 QuoteHmmm ... could it be something with a POPS # associated with it? BINGO! QuoteActually I was there at the DZ very late last Friday (night jumps), so I'm not sure why we didn't see each other. The guys told me you left QuoteBut I'm off to Twin Falls this weekend to hopefully safely flic myself off of the most-bodacious legal 486 foot span, so maybe we'll have to meet up somewhere else? You be careful. I guess we'll just have to do dinner after you get backMay your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #29 June 11, 2004 Quotewhat made it change? My attitudes changed before this, but it was recently solidified on my latest downsizing escapades when I realized that: 1) I am travelling faster than I've ever travelled under canopy. 2) I better pay attention because of point #1. 3) I better complete my flair if I want to stand this up (or run it out). 4) I have seen others mess up and know that I too can mess up. Oh for the record, I do fly three totally different canopies: Crossfire2 119 (I love this canopy, but am only starting to scratch the surface of learning it), a Spectre 150 (what a great all around canopy capable of accuracy approaches as well as swooping) and my FLiK 293 BASE canopy (I never knew flying such a big boat would be so much fun) and I am equally capable of hurting myself on anyone of these puppies. But I will try and do my best not to become an incidents report by staying within my current abilities and I will hopefully not go any length of time not flying one of these canopies so as to hopefully stay some what current on all of them. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vdschoor 0 #30 June 11, 2004 I think one of the reasons I went from know it all to "let's ask someone who's been around for a while" was not because I got hurt, but because I saw someone get hurt, up close and personal. I think one of the things with the big DZ's out here is that you don't really know anyone, other than the people you're close with. If someone gets hurt, yes they'll see an ambulance, but it's almost never someone they know and jump operations continue as usual. ah, it's only an ankle, it's only a shoulder.. no.. it's an injury, and someone made a mistake somewhere, let's learn from these. At the same time, 100 to 300 jumps can easily be done in 1 year in the sport, it took me 5 years. Granted this was because I didn't really have money on one side, and the other was that I was jumping at a small Cessna DZ. I was always there though, seeing what went on. I don't think jumpnumbers are a good representation for experience in the first place (at least not the first 300) it's years in the sport, and with years in the sport I mean active years, years that you actually spent at a DZ etc. I'm only a 600 jump wonder, and by no means should anyone come to me thinking I know it all, but I've seen the accidents, up close and it made me a lot wiser in this sport. According to some people (even very experienced ones) I should have been jumping Stiletto 135's for at least the last 450 jumps... but no, I've seen 150 jump wonders be on Stiletto's and it's not pretty. I'll learn to fly my Sabre2 first, instead of having to be lucky for the first 50 landings before I can land it in a decent fashion. Be careful out there Iwan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #31 June 11, 2004 So far the ways we have to reach people is: 1. They get enough jumps to realize they don't know it all. 2. They see someone get hurt. 3. They get hurt. 4. They almost die. Others?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scottbre 0 #32 June 11, 2004 QuoteWhat is it with jumpers with 100-300 jumps that makes some of them think they know it all? It's because we are better than all you old fogeys of skydiving. Our brains and bodies are more resiliant and thus can hold more useful skills and information. I can swoop my 88 sqft canopy, loaded at 2.1 and I never have a problem standing up the landing (usually in the peas). Not to mention that, even though I haven't seen someone fly, I can tell from their description of a flying problem on dz.com what they are doing wrong. And I'm not too modest to share my wealth of knowledge with that person (and the rest of the dz.com community) so that they can know exactly what they're doing wrong and what they need to work on. Those of use with 100 to 300 jumps have big egos to go along with our exceptional skydiving skills. We're just that good. Hell I even offer skyboard and tubedive coach dives for only 20 bucks plus slot. "Your mother's full of stupidjuice!" My Art Project Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gmanpilot 0 #33 June 11, 2004 Quotecertain green belts.....Proceed with smackdown. I have seen that backfire. Teenage male greenbelt who is an excellent athlete + adult female blackbelt attempting smackdown = embarrassing sparring match for the blackbelt, he tore her up. What then? About the 100-300 jump thing, it's a phase....we all went thru it.....one way or the other._________________________________________ -There's always free cheese in a mouse trap. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brains 2 #34 June 11, 2004 Hey Ron, I think that i finally realized that i was heading down the wrong path when i stopped caring about trying to be the best and competing. I started to skydive for ME! Then i just wanted to relax, have fun, and enjoy my weekends. Then, i went on a freefly jump with IMGR2, i watched him transition from hd to sit and back effortlessly right in front of me. I realized that there was so much i didn't know and i wanted to learn as much as possible. I wanted to be free and not turn points, and fly in all different positions. Bryan will forever be my friend for helping to straighten me out.(pun intended) He has also helped me repeatedly with my canopy control and hp landings. I recently downsized again and he talked with me about it to hear my goals and what i wanted to accomplish with this new canopy. He keeps me in line and i thank him for it. This was not meant to bash belly fliers, it could very easily happen the other way around. Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #35 June 11, 2004 hehe. I know the abilities of every one of my students, and my instructor knows my ability. If one of my green belts, who I trained up through the ranks, could best me, I don't deserve my rank. These are students I worked with on a daily basis, from the time they were white belts (three or four years, usually). I know exactly who forgets to check which blind spot, who telegraphs which kick and how, who drops their guard and when. If one of them gets the drop on me, I fucked up. In my eight years of teaching, I can honestly say it never happened. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #36 June 11, 2004 QuoteYou get those shirts yet...I sent them yesterday...Yeah I know I suck. But they are going FedEx FedEx, I was sure they were coming by Pony Ex. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #37 June 11, 2004 QuoteSparky is always saying the only two real teachers are pain and repetition. The more pain, the less repetition is required. The reason I know this is because of the many lessons I learned the hard way. I just wish I knew as much about skydiving and gear now as I did 20 years ago. But they say, "what doesn't kill you...... SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #38 June 11, 2004 I think it's something akin to us guys when we were 18-23...tougher than woodpecker lips and dumber than dogshit. yours in agave, Vinny the AnvilVinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisL 2 #39 June 11, 2004 Quote You can't hit them...It would serve nothing. So, really what can someone do to get people to listen? Er...you cant hit them because they might just hand you your ass on a plate. Hows that for a good reason? We are mostly adults and the fact that we have little or no experience with skydiving doesnt mean we can be treated like errant children or that we should be. No offense Ron, I really like reading your posts. You have a lot to offer and I generally like your direct, no nonsense way of presenting you opinion. Truthfully I am not one to think that I know enough to offer anyone advise. I dont even like telling people that ASK me how to Pro-pack because maybe I dont do it exactly they way their instructor teaches and I dont want to cause any confusion. As your thread indicates, there are a lot of folks that are too young and inexperienced to know that they dont know anything. You wont be able to change that because its mostly a product of youth and has nothing to do with the number of jumps they have made. The young pretty much think they are immortal right up to the first time something really fucked up happens to them or someone they are close to. In the mean time, talking down to all people with less jumps than you have because of the way some young folks act looks pretty damned arrogant. Can I assume then that everyone with a few thousad jumps knows it all? I wont assume that about you or anyone else simply because your post sounded that way. BTW, the assumption that someone in the 100-300 jump range has nothing of value to offer is most likely incorrect as well. Some things are just common sense and are valid no matter how many jumps you have. Like how people react when you talk down to them for instance. Clearly your experience hasnt taught you anything in that department __ My mighty steed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
catfishhunter 1 #40 June 11, 2004 QuoteQuote Kris had a good point about slamming a student that refuses to listen in martial arts training. I did it when I taught years ago.....So what is the skydiving equivalent to poping a "know it all " upside the head? The GROUND. 50something jumps (have to check my log book) high winds wacthed one load of suckers get dragged.. several hours later winds kinda-sorta-not-really-died down. Wanted to jump real bad, cute girl asks how the wind at the lz area was and if I would jump. EGO kicks in and i say sure wtf lets jump. Friends that have been there since jump one are sitting on the couch saying wtf you thinking didn't you SEE the first load! I say I'll be ok see that cute little girl she's gonna go.Fast foward to me flying backwards to the LZ... 24-36" off the ground a full flare and WHAM I get my "POP" to the head and the "WTF ARE YOU THINKING" made alot more sense as I was being dragged across the runway. I had to learn the hard way what "It is better to be on the ground wishing you was in the air, then in the air wishing you was on the gorund" reallly meant. Difference here though is I was humbled by the experiance. Road Rash has a way of humbling me..(don't jump in high winds wearing a tee shirt and shorts in mequite!) For me personally that changed my outlook on people offering advice. No one told me to stay on the ground. They said they didn't think it was a good Idea and that THEY where not about to get on the plane. The other side to that was there was a full load of people on that plane and several of the people had 15+ years in the sport and they still went and got dragged as well. Very clear example of whom to watch and listen to and when to scratch your name from a load by who does/doesn't get on it MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #41 June 11, 2004 what's the equivalent of smacking them upside the head? perhaps getting them grounded. Every single time they do something unsafe. Consistently. If they don't jump safely, they don't jump. notifying other DZs in the area of an unsafe jumper might help too. If they can't be safe in the air, do what it takes to keep them out of the air. I know someone was commenting that smacking someone of a green belt rank, or grounding a mid level jumper might make them not come back. I'd rather they not come back. If they're fighting with ego, or jumping recklessly, they're just going to get themselves or someone else hurt. Better they not be there at all. And YES, I have suspended people or tossed them out of the karate school permanently. The head instructor stood by my decisions every single time. I've heard situations of DZOs reversing the decisions of an S&TA to ground someone who is unsafe. HOW does that help our sport? Letting someone who is unsafe be in the sky, or in the ring, is just asking for trouble. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ACMESkydiver 0 #42 June 11, 2004 QuoteWhat is it with jumpers with 100-300 jumps that makes some of them think they know it all? I know that skydiving is an amazing sport that can bring confidence to you, but how do a few get big heads so quickly? (My bold) ...glad I re-read your post again Ron before replying, I was getting a lil' hot under the collar at being generalized. I think you'll find that if you ask ANYONE that has EVER jumped with me that my safety and the safety of those I jump with have always been priority #1. Ask AggieDave and Turtle why I didn't get on the first load at Aggieland, or BodyPilot why I paid a high rate to jump with a coach at Lodi when I didn't need a coach, I just wanted to follow someone out for the spot...or my home DZ why I was the first on the list to sign up for canopy and accuracy coaching at 'Gonna Be Day'... Looking cool = staying alive & healthy. So back to my first statement, I'll accept that your post wasn't directed towards me because I am a (well, almost) 100-300 jumper. And I will concede that I have seen jumpers in that range do some things that in the back of my mind I thought were on the edge, but honestly the majority of the jumpers in this range that I jump with have their/our heads on straight. Not by our own perception, but by the coaching we receive from others...including 2 guys on the world team, which I'm just so proud to say I know, and thankfully have the privelege of getting some stellar coaching from. ~Jaye Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #43 June 11, 2004 QuoteAs your thread indicates, there are a lot of folks that are too young and inexperienced to know that they dont know anything. You wont be able to change that because its mostly a product of youth and has nothing to do with the number of jumps they have made. The young pretty much think they are immortal right up to the first time something really fucked up happens to them or someone they are close to. So, I should just give up and not care? That sounds like a crappy option for me. I'd rather keep trying even if that means people will hate me. I can live with that. QuoteIn the mean time, talking down to all people with less jumps than you have because of the way some young folks act looks pretty damned arrogant I think most know I only slam those that act like they know it all....If I am asked a quetion that is really a question...I answer it. And ya know the reason I asked this question is to see if there is a soluton to this problem other than: So far the ways we have to reach people is: 1. They get enough jumps to realize they don't know it all. Cause sometimes they die or get really fucked up before they get the jumps. 2. They see someone get hurt. Man that sucks as a learning tool 3. They get hurt. I'd rather people not have to get life flighted out to learn a lesson. 4. They almost die. Cause sometimes they WILL die All of these options are not options to me. QuoteCan I assume then that everyone with a few thousad jumps knows it all? You can if you want...Its not true, but most times a guy with 1,000 jumps knows more than guy with 300. QuoteBTW, the assumption that someone in the 100-300 jump range has nothing of value to offer is most likely incorrect as well. Some things are just common sense and are valid no matter how many jumps you have Did you read the two links I posted...How about the one where the two guys with LESS than 200 jumps were giving canopy advice that almost everyone with 1,000 or more said was a bad idea? QuoteLike how people react when you talk down to them for instance. Clearly your experience hasnt taught you anything in that department I hope you don't take this as talking down to you...I asked this question to get input for a way to prevent people from getting hurt/killed. Do you think I am motivated by any other desire?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Laurel 0 #44 June 11, 2004 Even though someone may have one trillion jumps more than me, I am a well-rounded, intelligent adult and expect to be addressed as one. I also readily admit that I don't know jack about this sport and look up to and listen carefully to my elders (use of word does not refer to age but experience). As a thinking and reasoning adult, I also do not listen to isolated opinions, but seek information from the masses of more experienced jumpers so I can put together a well-informed decision. You will not see the low-jump-number swagger from me as I walk around the DZ. ..................................................................... PMS#28, Pelogrande Rodriguez#1074 My Pink M Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #45 June 11, 2004 QuoteSo back to my first statement, I'll accept that your post wasn't directed towards me because I am a (well, almost) 100-300 jumper. And I will concede that I have seen jumpers in that range do some things that in the back of my mind I thought were on the edge Then it is clearly not you I am asking about. So what to do about those others?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #46 June 11, 2004 QuoteYou will not see the low-jump-number swagger from me as I walk around the DZ I have seen you walk around the DZ...It was with a swagger...Um, but I didn't mind."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #47 June 11, 2004 QuoteYou will not see the low-jump-number swagger from me as I walk around the DZ. Since you insist, I will observe you walking around and determine if a swagger exists. Just in the interests of science. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Laurel 0 #48 June 11, 2004 QuoteQuoteYou will not see the low-jump-number swagger from me as I walk around the DZ I have seen you walk around the DZ...It was with a swagger...Um, but I didn't mind. You are too funny. ..................................................................... PMS#28, Pelogrande Rodriguez#1074 My Pink M Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #49 June 11, 2004 Quote Some things are just common sense and are valid no matter how many jumps you have. Almost everything in skydiving is "common sense". The problem is "common sense" is not always that common. Not if you just want to rag on Ron for his wonderful bedside manner, have at, many have tried. But in the mean time do you have an answer to the question he posed? Sparky Thanks BB2My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ACMESkydiver 0 #50 June 11, 2004 QuoteQuoteSo back to my first statement, I'll accept that your post wasn't directed towards me because I am a (well, almost) 100-300 jumper. And I will concede that I have seen jumpers in that range do some things that in the back of my mind I thought were on the edge Then it is clearly not you I am asking about. So what to do about those others? I wish I could offer something intelligent here, but the only thing that I can do about it is either a.) Do not jump with them or b.) Jump with them on jumps that we discuss and agree upon the safety parameters...i.e., "Ok, we'll do a 3-way from 10k; exit like , , break-off at 'X' feet; I pull at 3100. Nobody in front of us, no one behind us, I'll spiral down and land first, unless I see one of you clearly below me." -Is that good? I guess maybe what you're talking about is people that would take this jump plan and then not follow it? Or pull low? Or do some type of landing that might jeopardize the other 2 of us in the air? If I saw that consistently, I'd ask the DZO if I should stay out of that person's way... And opt for other jump buddies or get some solo's in... Our DZO has private discussions when people need some 'adjustments', and I think that's classy. No one wants to be berated in front of others. And I'll be the first to admit that I've had 'gentle reminders', and that's all they were, and all that was needed. As simple as "Jaye, which direction do you land in light/variable winds?"...to which my response was "Um, West." "And you landed...which way Jaye?" "Um, North." "Nobody was behind you, and there were only 2 of you out here...but that isn't going to work when we have the big plane." "Sorry. I'll fix that." Takes a degree of people skills to know how to get the point across...and after all, the goal is to get the point across, not to get the chance to vent or prove your mastery of the air. He could have said, "Boy, that sure was a dumb-ass landing Jaye, knowing that West should have been your final and North was how you landed. What the hell happened there?" <--See, he still would have been right, but here I prolly would have got a little defensive and tried to fall back on the fact that I was alone in the air when I landed; the jumper below me had landed already so it presented no hazard...I wouldn't have grown from that, just would have been pissed at myself for doing something stupid, and him for embarrassing me like that. It's all in the delivery. (True, some of it is in the willingness of the receiver to accept and grow from the advice as well.)~Jaye Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action. 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Nightingale 0 #41 June 11, 2004 what's the equivalent of smacking them upside the head? perhaps getting them grounded. Every single time they do something unsafe. Consistently. If they don't jump safely, they don't jump. notifying other DZs in the area of an unsafe jumper might help too. If they can't be safe in the air, do what it takes to keep them out of the air. I know someone was commenting that smacking someone of a green belt rank, or grounding a mid level jumper might make them not come back. I'd rather they not come back. If they're fighting with ego, or jumping recklessly, they're just going to get themselves or someone else hurt. Better they not be there at all. And YES, I have suspended people or tossed them out of the karate school permanently. The head instructor stood by my decisions every single time. I've heard situations of DZOs reversing the decisions of an S&TA to ground someone who is unsafe. HOW does that help our sport? Letting someone who is unsafe be in the sky, or in the ring, is just asking for trouble. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ACMESkydiver 0 #42 June 11, 2004 QuoteWhat is it with jumpers with 100-300 jumps that makes some of them think they know it all? I know that skydiving is an amazing sport that can bring confidence to you, but how do a few get big heads so quickly? (My bold) ...glad I re-read your post again Ron before replying, I was getting a lil' hot under the collar at being generalized. I think you'll find that if you ask ANYONE that has EVER jumped with me that my safety and the safety of those I jump with have always been priority #1. Ask AggieDave and Turtle why I didn't get on the first load at Aggieland, or BodyPilot why I paid a high rate to jump with a coach at Lodi when I didn't need a coach, I just wanted to follow someone out for the spot...or my home DZ why I was the first on the list to sign up for canopy and accuracy coaching at 'Gonna Be Day'... Looking cool = staying alive & healthy. So back to my first statement, I'll accept that your post wasn't directed towards me because I am a (well, almost) 100-300 jumper. And I will concede that I have seen jumpers in that range do some things that in the back of my mind I thought were on the edge, but honestly the majority of the jumpers in this range that I jump with have their/our heads on straight. Not by our own perception, but by the coaching we receive from others...including 2 guys on the world team, which I'm just so proud to say I know, and thankfully have the privelege of getting some stellar coaching from. ~Jaye Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #43 June 11, 2004 QuoteAs your thread indicates, there are a lot of folks that are too young and inexperienced to know that they dont know anything. You wont be able to change that because its mostly a product of youth and has nothing to do with the number of jumps they have made. The young pretty much think they are immortal right up to the first time something really fucked up happens to them or someone they are close to. So, I should just give up and not care? That sounds like a crappy option for me. I'd rather keep trying even if that means people will hate me. I can live with that. QuoteIn the mean time, talking down to all people with less jumps than you have because of the way some young folks act looks pretty damned arrogant I think most know I only slam those that act like they know it all....If I am asked a quetion that is really a question...I answer it. And ya know the reason I asked this question is to see if there is a soluton to this problem other than: So far the ways we have to reach people is: 1. They get enough jumps to realize they don't know it all. Cause sometimes they die or get really fucked up before they get the jumps. 2. They see someone get hurt. Man that sucks as a learning tool 3. They get hurt. I'd rather people not have to get life flighted out to learn a lesson. 4. They almost die. Cause sometimes they WILL die All of these options are not options to me. QuoteCan I assume then that everyone with a few thousad jumps knows it all? You can if you want...Its not true, but most times a guy with 1,000 jumps knows more than guy with 300. QuoteBTW, the assumption that someone in the 100-300 jump range has nothing of value to offer is most likely incorrect as well. Some things are just common sense and are valid no matter how many jumps you have Did you read the two links I posted...How about the one where the two guys with LESS than 200 jumps were giving canopy advice that almost everyone with 1,000 or more said was a bad idea? QuoteLike how people react when you talk down to them for instance. Clearly your experience hasnt taught you anything in that department I hope you don't take this as talking down to you...I asked this question to get input for a way to prevent people from getting hurt/killed. Do you think I am motivated by any other desire?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Laurel 0 #44 June 11, 2004 Even though someone may have one trillion jumps more than me, I am a well-rounded, intelligent adult and expect to be addressed as one. I also readily admit that I don't know jack about this sport and look up to and listen carefully to my elders (use of word does not refer to age but experience). As a thinking and reasoning adult, I also do not listen to isolated opinions, but seek information from the masses of more experienced jumpers so I can put together a well-informed decision. You will not see the low-jump-number swagger from me as I walk around the DZ. ..................................................................... PMS#28, Pelogrande Rodriguez#1074 My Pink M Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #45 June 11, 2004 QuoteSo back to my first statement, I'll accept that your post wasn't directed towards me because I am a (well, almost) 100-300 jumper. And I will concede that I have seen jumpers in that range do some things that in the back of my mind I thought were on the edge Then it is clearly not you I am asking about. So what to do about those others?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #46 June 11, 2004 QuoteYou will not see the low-jump-number swagger from me as I walk around the DZ I have seen you walk around the DZ...It was with a swagger...Um, but I didn't mind."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #47 June 11, 2004 QuoteYou will not see the low-jump-number swagger from me as I walk around the DZ. Since you insist, I will observe you walking around and determine if a swagger exists. Just in the interests of science. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Laurel 0 #48 June 11, 2004 QuoteQuoteYou will not see the low-jump-number swagger from me as I walk around the DZ I have seen you walk around the DZ...It was with a swagger...Um, but I didn't mind. You are too funny. ..................................................................... PMS#28, Pelogrande Rodriguez#1074 My Pink M Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #49 June 11, 2004 Quote Some things are just common sense and are valid no matter how many jumps you have. Almost everything in skydiving is "common sense". The problem is "common sense" is not always that common. Not if you just want to rag on Ron for his wonderful bedside manner, have at, many have tried. But in the mean time do you have an answer to the question he posed? Sparky Thanks BB2My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ACMESkydiver 0 #50 June 11, 2004 QuoteQuoteSo back to my first statement, I'll accept that your post wasn't directed towards me because I am a (well, almost) 100-300 jumper. And I will concede that I have seen jumpers in that range do some things that in the back of my mind I thought were on the edge Then it is clearly not you I am asking about. So what to do about those others? I wish I could offer something intelligent here, but the only thing that I can do about it is either a.) Do not jump with them or b.) Jump with them on jumps that we discuss and agree upon the safety parameters...i.e., "Ok, we'll do a 3-way from 10k; exit like , , break-off at 'X' feet; I pull at 3100. Nobody in front of us, no one behind us, I'll spiral down and land first, unless I see one of you clearly below me." -Is that good? I guess maybe what you're talking about is people that would take this jump plan and then not follow it? Or pull low? Or do some type of landing that might jeopardize the other 2 of us in the air? If I saw that consistently, I'd ask the DZO if I should stay out of that person's way... And opt for other jump buddies or get some solo's in... Our DZO has private discussions when people need some 'adjustments', and I think that's classy. No one wants to be berated in front of others. And I'll be the first to admit that I've had 'gentle reminders', and that's all they were, and all that was needed. As simple as "Jaye, which direction do you land in light/variable winds?"...to which my response was "Um, West." "And you landed...which way Jaye?" "Um, North." "Nobody was behind you, and there were only 2 of you out here...but that isn't going to work when we have the big plane." "Sorry. I'll fix that." Takes a degree of people skills to know how to get the point across...and after all, the goal is to get the point across, not to get the chance to vent or prove your mastery of the air. He could have said, "Boy, that sure was a dumb-ass landing Jaye, knowing that West should have been your final and North was how you landed. What the hell happened there?" <--See, he still would have been right, but here I prolly would have got a little defensive and tried to fall back on the fact that I was alone in the air when I landed; the jumper below me had landed already so it presented no hazard...I wouldn't have grown from that, just would have been pissed at myself for doing something stupid, and him for embarrassing me like that. It's all in the delivery. (True, some of it is in the willingness of the receiver to accept and grow from the advice as well.)~Jaye Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
