Closing a Reflex reserve...

[DebaucheroRdrgz 0]

Hey there everyone, I am working towards my riggers ticket and it just so happens that the gear available to me to practice pack reserves is a reflex which is in very good condition. I have the manual for it, however it is very vague when it comes to the closing of the container.

Could anyone post a link or pm me and give me some good tips on how to close the reserve on this type of container? Thanks a lot, I look forward to hearing from you all!

[likestojump 3]

the most important thing is to have the properly made closing loop.

after that it's best to have whoever is supervising your packjobs to show you, it's quite common sense.

you are having someone supervise, right ? Otherwise you are very likely learning to the wrong way, and building muscle memory of doing wrong things the wrong way :(

[PhreeZone 15]

The Reflex manual is very clear on the way to close the container. They even included a 3 page attachment of "tips" with new containers on how to make it look better.

Talk to your supervising rigger on this since its pretty easy to do.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[councilman24 36]

If you've watched other rigs being closed than the manual might be confusing because it closes very differently than most other rigs.

If you haven't figured it out the loop is left very long, the piin inserted and the loop tightened. You will need someone to show you once most likely.

If you just practicing without a rigger than just practice packing the canopy. Worry about closing it later. You may likely do few Reflexs. Depending where you are in the country. Some riggers will NOT do them at all and never would. Some are getting worn out. But I jump one, just bought a NIB second one and have another NIB never assembled that needs to go back to the owner trying to sell it.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[riggerrob 558]

I struggled to learn how to pack Reflex reserves for a couple of years, until Iron Mike (Reflex factory rigger) showed me a few tips.

First, throw all your steel T-bodkins in the trash!

Secondly, make your own ghost loop with a large lump of scrap iron on the bottom end. You can vastly simplify tool count if you fingertrap a pull-up cord to your ghost loop.
Has my fancy terminology lost you yet?

Install the ripcord, closing loop and ghost loop BEFORE flaking the canopy.

Next, stare at the freebag until you realize that it is much thicker across the top edge than most other freebags, ergo you will need to stuff more canopy bulk into the top edge than most other containers. This extra bulk becomes important when you try to hide the edge of the pilot chute cap.
Similarly, if you leave the catapult attached, bulk distribution makes more sense, helping to hide the edge of the pilot chute cap.

While closing the side flaps, you HAVE TO prevent the freebag from shifting towards the closing loop, because you will not be able to reposition it later.
Tightly stack all the container grommets BEFORE doing anything with the pilot-chute.

Pilot-chute mesh and fabric goes UNDER the composite cap and UNDER the cosmetic fabric pilot-chute cap.

Compress pilot-chute spring and temp pin ghost loop BEFORE doing anything with the closing loop.
In conclusion, trying to teach yourself rigging is an exercise in frustration. You would be far wiser to find a local rigger to mentor you.

[DebaucheroRdrgz 0]

Thanks all for the replies. Yeah, a mentor is what I need to learn from.... kinda hard to find close by. Until then, I've got this rig to screw around with until I figure it out... maybe an exercise in frustration, but it's interesting and fun for now.

[Beatnik 2]

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First, throw all your steel T-bodkins in the trash!

Steel T-bodkins are extremely useful if you know how to use them. If you don't then they are like any other tool and are useless. I packed lot of pop-tops with steel t-bodkins and I find it a lot better than using a ghost loop.

To DebaucheroRdrgz what I would suggest if there is no one around that you can mentor from. Contact Jumpshack and get their packing video. It is a different rig altogether but the techniques used in the video will aid you in closing other pop-top reserve style containers if you are just learning how to do it. The video will also teach you how to use steel t-bodkins properly.

[DebaucheroRdrgz 0]

I ended up figuring out how to do it pretty easily. Just fold up the bridle on each side kind of like any other reserve and then put the closing loop through the two holes and use a large piece of cypress closing loop material and a gun tool/ bodkin and pull it through... Then use the tensioning device and a hollow ended temp pin and but the reserve cable straight pin through. then fold up the pc, and stuff it under the pop top.. tighten the adjustable closing loop a little and put on the decorative cover for the pc... the only problem i've encountered is I think im putting too much pin tension on the reserve's straight pin as the pull force is a little high for my liking.... any clues or tips on what the proper pull force would be and a way to get it that way?

[likestojump 3]

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Then use the tensioning device and a hollow ended temp pin and but the reserve cable straight pin through. then fold up the pc, and stuff it under the pop top.. t

what exactly are you stuffing under the poptop ?

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any clues or tips on what the proper pull force would be and a way to get it that way?

5-22lbs last time I read the manual/FAR :)

[pchapman 262]

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Just fold up the bridle on each side

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the pull force is a little high for my liking.... any clues or tips

1. I'd stick to the factory suggested bridle location unless you have a really good reason to change it ... and have the experience to back up the choice. (Besides, the FAA does require a US rigger to follow the manufacturers' instructions. Occasionally that is completely stupid, but usually it is a good idea to stay close to what they want.)

2. The right pull force? Often it's gonna be 20- 22 lbs, seriously. External pilot chute rigs tend to need to be snug to prevent them from showing fabric over time as the canopy compresses and the rig flexes. Sometimes tight rigs (of all types) will test still a little higher at first.... but you know that when you re-check the next day the tension will be down a bit, below the limit.

The Reflex the instructions even say that after a few days a little snugging up is often necessary. That isn't always practical to do, so you get it snugged up pretty tight to begin with.

[councilman24 36]

Nope, nope and nope. You don't do the bridle like that, you don't need a temporary pin, and you leave the loop very loose to start with.

Do you HAVE a manual for this? If so I'm not sure you've opened it.

BTW where are you? A mentor might be closer than you think.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[DebaucheroRdrgz 0]

paul chapman councilman

@ Paul... Stuffing I guess isn't the best term, but I'm folding up the pc fabric and putting it under the pop top. 5-22 lbs, good to know.

@ Chapman... The way im folding the bridle looks the same as in the manual.

@ Councilman... Do I have a manual? Yes, but I keep it firmly closed at all times. I feel its best to stare at the manual and use ESP to absorb what's in it.... all kidding aside of course I look in it. How else would I learn how to do it when everyone just says go ask a mentor, don't learn things on your own...lol.

Thanks all for the replies

[pchapman 262]

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@ Chapman... The way im folding the bridle looks the same as in the manual.

Ok, I've got this partially figured out:

The manual I have, which seems to be current (or at least the one floating around on the web for a company that is gone), doesn't have the V-fold, nor does the supplement for changes with no catapult.

But some hand written notes I have show the V fold -- which I later crossed out.

Thus I think it might be from an older version of the manual??

Generally the newest manual is clearly the best, but there are issues in the rigging world with the degree to which a new manual absolutely must replace an old manual, which I won't get into here.

(The version without the S-fold keeps the bulk of the bridle under the bottom flap, or, without catapult, between the ears of the freebag to bulk that area up.)

[DebaucheroRdrgz 0]

Yeah I don't have the catapult on here... I think it was removed from the rig a couple years back. The way I have it has the first few folds between the ears and then a v fold with the apex pointing towards the main compartment... BTW apparently I suck at filling out the molar ears on the free bag... Its probably because I'm used to packing base canopies and skydiving reserves are tiny in comparison. Any tips that helped anyone in the past in filling out the molar compartments in the bag?

[likestojump 3]

hi Steve.

first off whoever made the comment about throwing away the bodkins - I disagree. Once the freebag is in, I put the bodkin in from the backpad, and it's great to thread all the flap grommets on - keeps everything nice and inline before you start dicking with the PC.

Molar ears - myself (and I suspect many others) have had the same problem when I just started packing. Most freebags have slight differences in how much bulk distribution they will take in order to look/feel nice. For ears specifically it's usually a matter of not concentrating so much on the first two folds, but actually leaving enough AFTER the first two to have long ears that you can fold under themselves and thus keep bulky, and keep the packjobs shaped to fit the freebag well. What worked for me was pretty much trying each freebag size/canopy size combination a few different times until I figured out where to make the folds to have the best fitting packjob.

in other words it's all about bulk distribution.

hope this helps and good luck !

[councilman24 36]

I've never seen a manual that has a V fold for a Reflex. I do have a manual from 1999 when I bought mine. And I have seen the authorization for removing the catapult although I chose to leave mine one.

Opening the manual was directed at the V fold. I've never seen a manual with that. If there is I appologize.

Still not sure some of the other parts are right. The pin goes in with the loop very loose. Only use for a temporary pin is to reenforce the ripcord pin to keep from bending it while tightening.

Time to put my NIB second Reflex together.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[likestojump 3]

my manuals dated 1997 and 1998 both show the V fold on page 35 in Step 21 (after putting the top flap over the catapult PC.

[riggerrob 558]

Steel T-bodkins are useful when closing Para-Cushions, but just get in the way when closing Cypres-equipped Pop-Top containers.

I only packed a couple of Racers - with steel T-bodkins and Cypres. I rapidly lost count of the huge pile of tools.
I continued to struggle until a German rigger told me about ghost loops. Ghost loops make the process of packing Pop-Tops with Cypres logical.

[Beatnik 2]

I find my steel bodkins extremely useful when closing racers with or with out AADs. I find it a real pain trying to close one of the containers without them. They make the job so much easier.

If you are losing count over two tools opposed to one then they are other issues. They don't increase the tool count significantly for packing. You will have one or two more tools when packing with them.

If you continue to struggle with Racers, I suggest you get some factory training. Steel bodkins if you know how to use them are invaluable with pop-tops of any kind. Packing them without seems like a lot of wasted time for no reason.

[DebaucheroRdrgz 0]

Thanks Paul, I'm tracking on what your saying... If i have time tomorrow I'll play around with it more... I'll just make smaller initial folds and leave the ears long and fold them over on themselves like you were suggesting. That way i'm sure it will be less like an act of congress to get the thing in the bag.

[riggerrob 558]

In my eyes, steel T-bodkins require 6 tools, whereas ghost loops constitute one tool to close Racers (with Cypres).

That difference vastly simplifies tool count.

Counting tools was always a challenge to me because I never did very well at math.
Hah!
Hah!

[Beatnik 2]

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In my eyes, steel T-bodkins require 6 tools, whereas ghost loops constitute one tool to close Racers (with Cypres).

What tools are you using that it requires that many more? In my mind if you are using bodkins, you have two of them and a piece of 300 lbs. spectra if you have an AAD. If you use a ghost loop you have it. So it is one more tool without an AAD and two if you have one.

I mark on my inspection sheet which tools go in or out and have never had a problem with a tool count.

The bodkins greatly ease lining up the grommets, setting up the position of the freebag and a few other things. A ghost loop is not going to do that and is going to be a bigger pain in my eyes than anything else. I cannot see anyway that one large ghost is going to make packing a racer easier or any pop-top for that matter.

If your ghost loops work for you great. But I don't think that it is great advice for others to throw away their steel bodkins because you aren't able to use them. Jumpshack trains people with them, that is the way I was trained and having packed both ways, I will say it is much easier with steel bodkins than without.

[JerryBaumchen 1,050]

Hi riggerrob & Hi Beatnik,

Seems to me that one of you prefers blonds & the other prefers redheads.

JerryBaumchen

[mjosparky 3]

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Hi riggerrob & Hi Beatnik,

Seems to me that one of you prefers blonds & the other prefers redheads.

JerryBaumchen

And guys like you and me prefer both, right Jerry?

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[riggerrob 558]

Correct Jerry!

I had a disastrous romantic relationship with a buxom blond from California.
Hah!
Hah!