voilsb 1 #1 January 4, 2010 I've done some searching, and can't find any information about this. For the record, I'm not looking to do any modifications, I'm merely curious about the engineering and design of the parachutes. Does anyone know how much the weight of a slider affects the opening characteristics? For example, the difference between a flat, non-collapsible ZP slider with brass grommets, and the same sized slider that's collapsible (two strings, like PD) and has stainless steel grommets? The sliders have the same dimensions, but the steel weighs more than the brass, and the extra material (the two lines, reinforcement, and ZP channel for them) also ads weight. On an otherwise identical setup, how might the openings be different between those two conditions?Brian Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,048 #2 January 4, 2010 Hi voilsb, I am no expert in this area but I once received an email from Brian Germain who felt that the extra weight of s/s grommets contributed to hard openings. Just what I heard, JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #3 January 4, 2010 QuoteHi voilsb, I am no expert in this area but I once received an email from Brian Germain who felt that the extra weight of s/s grommets contributed to hard openings. Just what I heard, JerryBaumchen They also produce less friction allowing the slider to move down the lines easier. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #4 January 4, 2010 Voilsb, The extra weight makes a difference for sure! Most manufacturers were using the standard weight, 25mm rings in their sliders up until about 2002 -2003 time frame. Now most everyone is using the lightweight (about 50 % lighter) rings in their construction. It makes a substanial difference, Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #5 January 4, 2010 I've switched to brass grommets on both of my rigs. I have a fused neck and like every opening to be as slow as possible. Doing 10 jumps a day even a small reduction in opening force can make a big difference on Sunday night. It is amazing the difference the brass grommets make even given no other changes to the rig's configuration. My rigger tells me that in addition to being lighter they also don't slide down the lines as well as there is a little bit more friction, which also slows the openings down a tad. I don't have any empirical evidence as to exactly how much difference there is but I can tell you I NOTICE the openings being slower and softer with brass grommets. "We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Martini 0 #6 January 4, 2010 I have a Xaos with two sliders, sliders are identical size but one has brass grommets, the other has stainless grommets and is noticeably heavier. The brass-grommeted slider is so light that it often hangs up about 3' above the links (a friend with the identical setup finally cut a 3 1/2" hole in his slider to fix this problem, it had no major effect on his openings) while the stainless-grommeted slider has no problem coming down. I never noticed any difference in my openings at all. If I wanted to make my slider stay up longer to slow the openings I would either have pockets installed on the slider or use a slider with a larger chord. Make small changes, consult manufacturers, riggers etc. and remember that you're a guinea pig.Sometimes you eat the bear.............. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #7 January 4, 2010 Back at the turn of the century, I traded e-mails with a part-time rigger in Arizona who was researching his "slider rebound" theory. His theory was that suspension line elasticity (especially with Dacron lines) created a gap between the slider and the slider stops (sewn to the stabilizers). His solution was to make ultra-light slider grommets from aluminum tubing, because he figured that the lighter the grommets, the less "slider rebound." Lighter grommets also reduce the risk of "slider slump" - as the d-bag opens - but before the slider catches wind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 55 #8 January 4, 2010 QuoteVoilsb, The extra weight makes a difference for sure! Most manufacturers were using the standard weight, 25mm rings in their sliders up until about 2002 -2003 time frame. Now most everyone is using the lightweight (about 50 % lighter) rings in their construction. It makes a substanial difference, Cheers, MEL Looking at the ParaGear catalog from 1996, PD canopy had option of #8 Brass, #20 Stainless, and #25 Stainless frommets. Which one was the heaviest, medium, and lightest? What is the "coding" for the current lightweight (about 50 % lighter) grommets? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RiggerLee 61 #9 January 5, 2010 I don't recall the name of the canopy. It was south african, chute shop or Pisa. It actually had lead weights swen into the slider to make it come down faster. They were small, four little rectanguler weights, a couple of ounces each. LeeLee [email protected] www.velocitysportswear.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Martini 0 #10 January 5, 2010 Four two-ounce weights? I'd hate to get hit by a slider weighing over a half pound.Sometimes you eat the bear.............. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gearless_chris 1 #11 January 5, 2010 So the weights don't resist acceleration down the lines, keeping the slider against the stops longer, to make it open slower? I thought one of the manufacturers said that the stainless grommets increase opening speed because of the lower friction against the lines. Doesn't the canopy spreading out above the slider propel the slider down the lines? I didn't think gravity had anything to do with the slider speed."If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane. My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RiggerLee 61 #12 January 5, 2010 You and the canopy are decelerating at several times the force of gravity. The more mass the slider has the higher the force trying to push the slider down the line to over cone the air pushing up. They put weights on the slider to try and make it open faster. LeeLee [email protected] www.velocitysportswear.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #13 January 5, 2010 >Doesn't the canopy spreading out above the slider propel the slider down the lines? Yes, that's the primary force pushing it down. The primary force keeping it up is air resistance, which is why heavy grommets work at all. >I didn't think gravity had anything to do with the slider speed. It doesn't have much to do with it. But this isn't gravity, it's acceleration. You are falling at about 120 mph and being decelerated to 5mph. Say that happens over 2 seconds - that's about 3 G's of deceleration. Einstein says* that that's equivalent to being accelerated upwards at 3G's, or being in 3G's of gravity with the parachute being suspended over your head. So a slider that weighs 5oz now weighs almost a pound, and that's an additional pound of force (or 4 newtons if you're John Kallend) trying to get the slider to come down the lines. That could speed up the opening. (* - not every day that you get to use Einstein in Gear and Rigging!) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #14 January 5, 2010 *** Looking at the ParaGear catalog from 1996, PD canopy had option of #8 Brass, #20 Stainless, and #25 Stainless frommets. Which one was the heaviest, medium, and lightest? What is the "coding" for the current lightweight (about 50 % lighter) grommets? Quote Paragear Does not sale these rings. You can get them from here: http://www.challengesailcloth.com/hardware.htm The part number for the lightweight is below: GSR25SLD Super Lt Duty Super Ring Set 25 mm Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #15 January 5, 2010 Thanks for the link. Next question: how many pounds of pressure (newtons/kilograms, etc.) are needed to set stainless steel grommets? What is the best press to set stainless steel grommets? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverek 55 #16 January 5, 2010 QuoteLooking at the ParaGear catalog from 1996, PD canopy had option of #8 Brass, #20 Stainless, and #25 Stainless frommets. Which one was the heaviest, medium, and lightest? What is the "coding" for the current lightweight (about 50 % lighter) grommets? Quote Paragear Does not sale these rings. You can get them from here: http://www.challengesailcloth.com/hardware.htm The part number for the lightweight is below: GSR25SLD Super Lt Duty Super Ring Set 25 mm Cheers, MEL So is 'GSR25SLD Super Lt Duty Super Ring Set 25 mm' the same what PD offered even 14 or so years ago on their order forms as '#25 Stainless grommets' ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrigger1 2 #17 January 5, 2010 *** Next question: how many pounds of pressure (newtons/kilograms, etc.) are needed to set stainless steel grommets? What is the best press to set stainless steel grommets? Quote I use a 20 Ton press that I bought from Northern Tool. I added a 1 1/2 inch steel plate to the crossmember for the dies to rest on. The center of the cross member is wider than the bottom or die base. Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrigger1 2 #18 January 5, 2010 *** So is 'GSR25SLD Super Lt Duty Super Ring Set 25 mm' the same what PD offered even 14 or so years ago on their order forms as '#25 Stainless grommets' ? Quote No... If you will read my first post, most manufacturers first used the Heavier, GSR25 Standard Super Ring. ....And somewhere about 2002 they started using the lighter GSR25LD Super Ring...(Light Duty) ...and now we use the GSR25SLD Super Ring (Even Lighter). There are problems with each different type of ring and/or grommet: 1. Brass grommets should NEVER be used with Vectran. The vectran will cut right though the brass in short order. 2. The Super Light Rings are now presenting a problem with larger Diameter Technora line sets. The Technora (HMA) generates more heat from it's increased drag against the grommets. This added heat is sometimes melting the risers if someone pulls the slider immediately down over the risers. We have seen melting of the risers before(and still do) with the larger Tandem canopies lined with Dacron. This is something everyone should be looking for now. I am currently changing a slider back to the GSR25LD rings to see if the added thickness of the rings will act like a heat sink. Hopefully it will be enough to deter the melting. We really will not know the answer to that question until Summer .... Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverek 55 #19 January 6, 2010 Quote Most manufacturers first used the Heavier, GSR25 Standard Super Ring. ....And somewhere about 2002 they started using the lighter GSR25LD Super Ring...(Light Duty) ...and now we use the GSR25SLD Super Ring (Even Lighter). Do you have the weight (in grams preferably) for each of those? Curious as to what weight differences there were. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #20 January 6, 2010 QuoteSlider Weight Affect on Opening Characteristics my slider has S/S grommets and it comes down at a really nice pace. my slider is also quite huge compared to most other sliders. I believe many sliders are too small, if there is any tention whatsoever between any of the slider grommets when fully inflated the slider is too small and the parachute is not flying as it was intended to. The same goes for sliders that don't come all the way down. My sliders dimetions are 90cm x 60 cm (35.4 x 23.6 inch) but this includes the flaps that have been included to eliminate the need for stabalisers on the canopy. I have attached a rough diagram of my slider I made for a rigger to make me a RDS with the same dimentions. My canopy is 79 sqare feet and it opens like a dream, even when I trash pack it."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #21 January 6, 2010 QuoteMy sliders dimetions are 90cm x 60 cm (35.4 x 23.6 inch) but this includes the flaps that have been included to eliminate the need for stabalisers on the canopy. How do flaps on the slider eliminate the need for stabalisers? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverek 55 #22 January 7, 2010 Quote Most manufacturers first used the Heavier, GSR25 Standard Super Ring. ....And somewhere about 2002 they started using the lighter GSR25LD Super Ring...(Light Duty) ...and now we use the GSR25SLD Super Ring (Even Lighter). Do you have the weight (in grams preferably) for each of those? Curious as to what weight differences there were. Attached is what I have on my Spectre. It says on the grommet "RUTGERSON SWEDEN". Is there a way to tell is if is GSR25, GSR25LD, or GSR25SLD? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrigger1 2 #23 January 8, 2010 They are either the LD or SLD, for sure not the heavy standard ones. MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverek 55 #24 January 8, 2010 Quote They are either the LD or SLD, for sure not the heavy standard ones. MEL Thanks a lot, Mel! This canopy (Spectre 190) and slider were manufactured in May 2001. Any more narrowing it down, as to the grommet type (LD or SLD)? I am really curious and would like to know Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
riggerrob 558 #15 January 5, 2010 Thanks for the link. Next question: how many pounds of pressure (newtons/kilograms, etc.) are needed to set stainless steel grommets? What is the best press to set stainless steel grommets? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 55 #16 January 5, 2010 QuoteLooking at the ParaGear catalog from 1996, PD canopy had option of #8 Brass, #20 Stainless, and #25 Stainless frommets. Which one was the heaviest, medium, and lightest? What is the "coding" for the current lightweight (about 50 % lighter) grommets? Quote Paragear Does not sale these rings. You can get them from here: http://www.challengesailcloth.com/hardware.htm The part number for the lightweight is below: GSR25SLD Super Lt Duty Super Ring Set 25 mm Cheers, MEL So is 'GSR25SLD Super Lt Duty Super Ring Set 25 mm' the same what PD offered even 14 or so years ago on their order forms as '#25 Stainless grommets' ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #17 January 5, 2010 *** Next question: how many pounds of pressure (newtons/kilograms, etc.) are needed to set stainless steel grommets? What is the best press to set stainless steel grommets? Quote I use a 20 Ton press that I bought from Northern Tool. I added a 1 1/2 inch steel plate to the crossmember for the dies to rest on. The center of the cross member is wider than the bottom or die base. Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrigger1 2 #18 January 5, 2010 *** So is 'GSR25SLD Super Lt Duty Super Ring Set 25 mm' the same what PD offered even 14 or so years ago on their order forms as '#25 Stainless grommets' ? Quote No... If you will read my first post, most manufacturers first used the Heavier, GSR25 Standard Super Ring. ....And somewhere about 2002 they started using the lighter GSR25LD Super Ring...(Light Duty) ...and now we use the GSR25SLD Super Ring (Even Lighter). There are problems with each different type of ring and/or grommet: 1. Brass grommets should NEVER be used with Vectran. The vectran will cut right though the brass in short order. 2. The Super Light Rings are now presenting a problem with larger Diameter Technora line sets. The Technora (HMA) generates more heat from it's increased drag against the grommets. This added heat is sometimes melting the risers if someone pulls the slider immediately down over the risers. We have seen melting of the risers before(and still do) with the larger Tandem canopies lined with Dacron. This is something everyone should be looking for now. I am currently changing a slider back to the GSR25LD rings to see if the added thickness of the rings will act like a heat sink. Hopefully it will be enough to deter the melting. We really will not know the answer to that question until Summer .... Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverek 55 #19 January 6, 2010 Quote Most manufacturers first used the Heavier, GSR25 Standard Super Ring. ....And somewhere about 2002 they started using the lighter GSR25LD Super Ring...(Light Duty) ...and now we use the GSR25SLD Super Ring (Even Lighter). Do you have the weight (in grams preferably) for each of those? Curious as to what weight differences there were. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #20 January 6, 2010 QuoteSlider Weight Affect on Opening Characteristics my slider has S/S grommets and it comes down at a really nice pace. my slider is also quite huge compared to most other sliders. I believe many sliders are too small, if there is any tention whatsoever between any of the slider grommets when fully inflated the slider is too small and the parachute is not flying as it was intended to. The same goes for sliders that don't come all the way down. My sliders dimetions are 90cm x 60 cm (35.4 x 23.6 inch) but this includes the flaps that have been included to eliminate the need for stabalisers on the canopy. I have attached a rough diagram of my slider I made for a rigger to make me a RDS with the same dimentions. My canopy is 79 sqare feet and it opens like a dream, even when I trash pack it."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #21 January 6, 2010 QuoteMy sliders dimetions are 90cm x 60 cm (35.4 x 23.6 inch) but this includes the flaps that have been included to eliminate the need for stabalisers on the canopy. How do flaps on the slider eliminate the need for stabalisers? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverek 55 #22 January 7, 2010 Quote Most manufacturers first used the Heavier, GSR25 Standard Super Ring. ....And somewhere about 2002 they started using the lighter GSR25LD Super Ring...(Light Duty) ...and now we use the GSR25SLD Super Ring (Even Lighter). Do you have the weight (in grams preferably) for each of those? Curious as to what weight differences there were. Attached is what I have on my Spectre. It says on the grommet "RUTGERSON SWEDEN". Is there a way to tell is if is GSR25, GSR25LD, or GSR25SLD? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrigger1 2 #23 January 8, 2010 They are either the LD or SLD, for sure not the heavy standard ones. MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverek 55 #24 January 8, 2010 Quote They are either the LD or SLD, for sure not the heavy standard ones. MEL Thanks a lot, Mel! This canopy (Spectre 190) and slider were manufactured in May 2001. Any more narrowing it down, as to the grommet type (LD or SLD)? I am really curious and would like to know Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
masterrigger1 2 #18 January 5, 2010 *** So is 'GSR25SLD Super Lt Duty Super Ring Set 25 mm' the same what PD offered even 14 or so years ago on their order forms as '#25 Stainless grommets' ? Quote No... If you will read my first post, most manufacturers first used the Heavier, GSR25 Standard Super Ring. ....And somewhere about 2002 they started using the lighter GSR25LD Super Ring...(Light Duty) ...and now we use the GSR25SLD Super Ring (Even Lighter). There are problems with each different type of ring and/or grommet: 1. Brass grommets should NEVER be used with Vectran. The vectran will cut right though the brass in short order. 2. The Super Light Rings are now presenting a problem with larger Diameter Technora line sets. The Technora (HMA) generates more heat from it's increased drag against the grommets. This added heat is sometimes melting the risers if someone pulls the slider immediately down over the risers. We have seen melting of the risers before(and still do) with the larger Tandem canopies lined with Dacron. This is something everyone should be looking for now. I am currently changing a slider back to the GSR25LD rings to see if the added thickness of the rings will act like a heat sink. Hopefully it will be enough to deter the melting. We really will not know the answer to that question until Summer .... Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverek 55 #19 January 6, 2010 Quote Most manufacturers first used the Heavier, GSR25 Standard Super Ring. ....And somewhere about 2002 they started using the lighter GSR25LD Super Ring...(Light Duty) ...and now we use the GSR25SLD Super Ring (Even Lighter). Do you have the weight (in grams preferably) for each of those? Curious as to what weight differences there were. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #20 January 6, 2010 QuoteSlider Weight Affect on Opening Characteristics my slider has S/S grommets and it comes down at a really nice pace. my slider is also quite huge compared to most other sliders. I believe many sliders are too small, if there is any tention whatsoever between any of the slider grommets when fully inflated the slider is too small and the parachute is not flying as it was intended to. The same goes for sliders that don't come all the way down. My sliders dimetions are 90cm x 60 cm (35.4 x 23.6 inch) but this includes the flaps that have been included to eliminate the need for stabalisers on the canopy. I have attached a rough diagram of my slider I made for a rigger to make me a RDS with the same dimentions. My canopy is 79 sqare feet and it opens like a dream, even when I trash pack it."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #21 January 6, 2010 QuoteMy sliders dimetions are 90cm x 60 cm (35.4 x 23.6 inch) but this includes the flaps that have been included to eliminate the need for stabalisers on the canopy. How do flaps on the slider eliminate the need for stabalisers? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverek 55 #22 January 7, 2010 Quote Most manufacturers first used the Heavier, GSR25 Standard Super Ring. ....And somewhere about 2002 they started using the lighter GSR25LD Super Ring...(Light Duty) ...and now we use the GSR25SLD Super Ring (Even Lighter). Do you have the weight (in grams preferably) for each of those? Curious as to what weight differences there were. Attached is what I have on my Spectre. It says on the grommet "RUTGERSON SWEDEN". Is there a way to tell is if is GSR25, GSR25LD, or GSR25SLD? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 55 #19 January 6, 2010 Quote Most manufacturers first used the Heavier, GSR25 Standard Super Ring. ....And somewhere about 2002 they started using the lighter GSR25LD Super Ring...(Light Duty) ...and now we use the GSR25SLD Super Ring (Even Lighter). Do you have the weight (in grams preferably) for each of those? Curious as to what weight differences there were. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #20 January 6, 2010 QuoteSlider Weight Affect on Opening Characteristics my slider has S/S grommets and it comes down at a really nice pace. my slider is also quite huge compared to most other sliders. I believe many sliders are too small, if there is any tention whatsoever between any of the slider grommets when fully inflated the slider is too small and the parachute is not flying as it was intended to. The same goes for sliders that don't come all the way down. My sliders dimetions are 90cm x 60 cm (35.4 x 23.6 inch) but this includes the flaps that have been included to eliminate the need for stabalisers on the canopy. I have attached a rough diagram of my slider I made for a rigger to make me a RDS with the same dimentions. My canopy is 79 sqare feet and it opens like a dream, even when I trash pack it."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #21 January 6, 2010 QuoteMy sliders dimetions are 90cm x 60 cm (35.4 x 23.6 inch) but this includes the flaps that have been included to eliminate the need for stabalisers on the canopy. How do flaps on the slider eliminate the need for stabalisers? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 55 #22 January 7, 2010 Quote Most manufacturers first used the Heavier, GSR25 Standard Super Ring. ....And somewhere about 2002 they started using the lighter GSR25LD Super Ring...(Light Duty) ...and now we use the GSR25SLD Super Ring (Even Lighter). Do you have the weight (in grams preferably) for each of those? Curious as to what weight differences there were. Attached is what I have on my Spectre. It says on the grommet "RUTGERSON SWEDEN". Is there a way to tell is if is GSR25, GSR25LD, or GSR25SLD? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #23 January 8, 2010 They are either the LD or SLD, for sure not the heavy standard ones. MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 55 #24 January 8, 2010 Quote They are either the LD or SLD, for sure not the heavy standard ones. MEL Thanks a lot, Mel! This canopy (Spectre 190) and slider were manufactured in May 2001. Any more narrowing it down, as to the grommet type (LD or SLD)? I am really curious and would like to know Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
