loumeinhart 0 #1 January 4, 2010 QuoteBASE canopies are a hell of a lot more predictable and reliable than skydiving canopies. Incorrect. There are many factors that influence any RAM-air canopy's deployment and in-flight performance. Plenty of BASE jumpers have experienced an off-heading deployment. Plenty of skydivers have deployed a main parachute unsuitable to land. A fun test is to lay your skydiving canopy next to your BASE canopy on the living room floor. Watch TV but keep one eye on the skydiving canopy because it's less predictable than the BASE canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JamMasterJay 0 #2 January 4, 2010 QuoteQuoteBASE canopies are a hell of a lot more predictable and reliable than skydiving canopies. Incorrect. There are many factors that influence any RAM-air canopy's deployment and in-flight performance. Plenty of BASE jumpers have experienced an off-heading deployment. Plenty of skydivers have deployed a main parachute unsuitable to land. A fun test is to lay your skydiving canopy next to your BASE canopy on the living room floor. Watch TV but keep one eye on the skydiving canopy because it's less predictable than the BASE canopy. It’s true that a BASE canopy is more predictable and reliable. A good buddy of mine could predict the opening on his BASE canopy nearly 99% of the time…at times, nearly 45% of those predictions were proved accurate +/- 90 degrees on heading. Try that with a skydiving canopy. The same guy also got a flat tire on the way home from the DZ; his skydiving rig went for help and never came back. Left his ass stranded all night.Truth is the distilled meaning of facts, for any truth refuted by a fact becomes a fallacy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
loumeinhart 0 #3 January 4, 2010 Quotenearly 45% of those predictions were proved accurate +/- 90 degrees on heading Your talking about heading performance on opening. Stuff that BASE canopy into a Dbag and take it on a skydive. Anyway, this seems to be a discussion about RAMair canopy performance and should be continued in the canopy thread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JamMasterJay 0 #4 January 4, 2010 QuoteQuotenearly 45% of those predictions were proved accurate +/- 90 degrees on heading Your talking about heading performance on opening. Stuff that BASE canopy into a Dbag and take it on a skydive. Anyway, this seems to be a discussion about RAMair canopy performance and should be continued in the canopy thread. You're missing the point!Truth is the distilled meaning of facts, for any truth refuted by a fact becomes a fallacy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #5 January 4, 2010 QuoteQuoteBASE canopies are a hell of a lot more predictable and reliable than skydiving canopies. Incorrect. Correct. Nearly all BASE canopies are large, lightly-loaded (.7 is ideal), rectangular, low-aspect ratio (around 2:1) seven cells with wide open noses for positive inflation and trim so they open fast with Dacron lines that don't go out of trim. All of that is conducive to predictable on-heading openings. Modern skydiving canopies are relatively small and highly loaded (we recommend 1.0 pounds per square foot for a first rig and experienced jumpers exceed 2 pounds per square foot), tapered, higher aspect-ratio, and have partially closed noses to pamper skydivers with slow openings. Many have Spectra lines which go out of trim and make for weird openings. All of that leads to inherent variability and sensitivity to other things like body position. I've made over 100 BASE jumps with one opening over 90 degrees off-heading (only time I didn't pack for myself) and I can't recall anything over 45 degrees after I learned to relax. I might attribute that to better packing, although after having issues in a tight landing area I bought a used J7 and found that I liked casual classic accuracy using my BASE canopies (Fox 245, Dagger 244. The Fox has a real nice sink into a pea pit or onto your packing mat) with seven minute pack jobs. That didn't produce a noticeable change in heading control (I can't even remember anything 45 degrees off heading) or opening speed using mesh sliders and no D-bag. I could blame the D-bag, although my experience with skydiving canopies is that bigger, more square, and faster opening canopies are more consistent. While my ellipticals (Stiletto 120, Samurai 105) and square (Monarch 135, around a 3:1 aspect ratio) open on-heading most of the time, I wouldn't bet on it in the same way. Opening speed also has bigger random variations on the slow opening canopies. Quote A fun test is to lay your skydiving canopy next to your BASE canopy on the living room floor. Watch TV but keep one eye on the skydiving canopy because it's less predictable than the BASE canopy. A more appropriate test is to buy a student sized rig (I picked up a Javelin J7 and Raven III for about $700; Sun Path claims it will hold a 288) and make a reasonable number (maybe 50? classic accuracy is fun) of hop-and-pops from a plane using your BASE canopy and skydiving main. In many cases the BASE canopies will be a lot more predictable in terms of both heading performance and opening time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
loumeinhart 0 #6 January 4, 2010 QuoteNearly all BASE canopies are large, lightly-loaded (.7 is ideal), rectangular, low-aspect ratio (around 2:1) seven cells with wide open noses for positive inflation and trim so they open fast with Dacron lines that don't go out of trim. All of that is conducive to predictable on-heading openings. That's right. I wasn't thinking beyond my own experience because I've never considered my BASE canopy to be any more relieable or predictable than my skydiving canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #7 January 4, 2010 It's a parachute, it wants to open ... regardless of whether it is a BASE or a skydiving canopy. The vast majority of off heading openings in skydiving as well as in BASE are due to body position. It's just more noticeable and more critical in BASE due to the lower openings and closer proximity to other objects. I never bothered to email anyone to find the nitty gritty details of this fatal accident. But I have been off of that same object in the past and when I jumped, I jumped off of the other side far away from these power lines. I have to wonder if the jump was made in the direction it was made due to the winds? If yes, then maybe it would have been a good candidate for abandoning the jump in the first place. But it is definitely a low'ish jump and a jump where the margin for error is slim. But as I said I don't know the nitty gritty details. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TVPB 0 #8 January 5, 2010 Quote Incorrect. There are many factors that influence any RAM-air canopy's deployment and in-flight performance. Plenty of BASE jumpers have experienced an off-heading deployment. Plenty of skydivers have deployed a main parachute unsuitable to land. A fun test is to lay your skydiving canopy next to your BASE canopy on the living room floor. Watch TV but keep one eye on the skydiving canopy because it's less predictable than the BASE canopy. I'm sorry. I'm from an English speaking country and I did not understand your post very well. Actually, I did not understand it at all! What language is it? Can you explain in simple terms what you are saying??? Thank You Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
loumeinhart 0 #9 January 5, 2010 Can you explain in simple terms what you are saying???Quote Sure, at the time I disagreed with this statement: QuoteBASE canopies are a hell of a lot more predictable and reliable than skydiving canopies I had never considered my skydiving canopy to be any less 'reliable' than my BASE canopy. That's as simple as I can put it.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #10 January 5, 2010 Please take base vs skydiving canopy comparisons to G+R and leave this to discuss the actual incident. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TVPB 0 #11 January 6, 2010 OK - on a serious note, everything about your BASE gear has to be more reliable than your normal skydiving gear. Why? It generally has no redundancy. In laymans terms you have no reserves, backup plans, etc. How do you achieve reliability? Consistency, repeatabilty, predictability, etc. You need to be sure of your outcome. How do you achieve this? Keeping away from higher performance canopies, increasing the size / WL which in turn decreases speeds and gives more time, configuring gear to behave in certain ways, learning techniques that optimize your gears performance (i.e. body position, etc), jumping in less turbulent environments (i.e. being more critical about weather conditions - not opening in prop blast or thermals, or higher winds), designing aerofoils that behave in certain ways (pressurisation & inflation distributions and durations), etc. I know that with a certain configuration, my BASE gear will open within a certain distance / time, I don't have either that faith or experience with my skydiving gear. I can open my BASE gear consistently a certain very low height above the ground. I have to increase the minimum height considerably for my skydiving gear, and this is due to both variation in opening characteristics and how long it takes and is designed to take to open A Fox 265 loaded at 0.70 will always be less radical on opening and flight compared to a fully elliptical 120 loaded at 1.55. Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JamMasterJay 0 #12 January 6, 2010 QuotePlease take base vs skydiving canopy comparisons to G+R and leave this to discuss the actual incident. Hey...ASS CHIN, If you're going to allow a BASE related discussion on a skydiving forum, why not let us talk about gear. I admit, it doesn't fall into the category of "incidents", but then again the ENTIRE topic belongs on a different web site all together! ALPHA MALE OUT!Truth is the distilled meaning of facts, for any truth refuted by a fact becomes a fallacy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SafetyNate 0 #13 January 6, 2010 Hi. I love reading this stuff and these circular arguments. While arguing that skydiving gear is less predictable, you explain how it preforms. Ultimately "predicting" how it will open. They are equally predictable and reliable. It is just that they are two different tools for two different jobs. I predict you can rely on that. Sad to hear about this incident. I jump a similar A and have had to pick up my feet to miss the wires. With so few deaths in the US lately, I was beginning to think BASE was almost safe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TVPB 0 #14 January 6, 2010 QuoteHi. I love reading this stuff and these circular arguments. While arguing that skydiving gear is less predictable, you explain how it preforms. Ultimately "predicting" how it will open. They are equally predictable and reliable. It is just that they are two different tools for two different jobs. I predict you can rely on that. Moving to specific scenarios. Given that you think they are equally reliable and consistent (am I misunderstanding what you are saying??), you would be happy jumping your skydiving main canopy on skydives without a reserve, forever? Correct? Or do you BASE jump with a dual canopy system and always deploy high so that you have time to use your reserve just like you do on a skydive? Are you happy on a rel dive for the group not to track very far and deploy close to each other (which is something that is more likely to be experienced on a BASE jump)? Or lets assume that: 1- it takes ~ 500 ft for your skydiving canopy to open from a zero air speed start. 1- it takes ~ 200 ft for your BASE canopy to open from a zero air speed start. All things being equal, and assume you are happy opening at 100ft, if you were jumping off a cliff with a good landing area, which one would you rather do: - exit and deploy your base canopy from 300 ft, or - exit and deploy your skydiving canopy from 600 ft. Which ones would you choose and why? p.s. yes, they are different tools for a different job. And there is a reason for that. One is how they are designed to function. More later. Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
loumeinhart 0 #15 January 7, 2010 QuoteI don't have either that faith or experience with my skydiving gear So please don't skydive edit: With proper maintenance, rigging, and operation your skydiving gear should be just as reliable as your BASE gear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
loumeinhart 0 #16 January 7, 2010 QuoteI don't have either that faith or experience with my skydiving gear. Billvon may delete this, but again, ... why the HELL would you jump skydiving gear if you had no "faith or experience" with your skydiving gear...That's pretty f'ed up Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
loumeinhart 0 #17 January 7, 2010 QuotePlease take base vs skydiving canopy comparisons to G+R and leave this to discuss the actual incident So move it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
