Safest way to rig a banner for freefall photo?

[hackish 8]

I've got a company owned by a friend and he wants to know if I can get some cool photos of his company logo. I'd like something in freefall if I can. I had a few ideas but was wondering what other riggers thought about possible safety concerns...

One idea was a 3' by 7' tapered banner made out of nylon. Attached at my knee and ankle. I'd go into a slightly head-down orientation allowing it to stream behind me. For deployment I'd go back to belly and the banner should in theory collapse a bit for a clean deployment.

Another idea was to do the same at the back of the leg and just straighten my legs for a belly to earth type jump. I don't really like the idea of it too far up my leg as it gets a little closer to the rig (Even thought I can't really think of any specific problem).

Now for a cutaway type system I could just make a normal cutaway type pillow and velcro it to a leg gripper on my jumpsuit. The cable itself could go through a tab with a grommet and loop type affair like the last of a 3-ring... not really sure on that point.

Any input or ideas?

-Michael

[indyz 1]

Seems pretty complicated. Hand-held banners are simple, proven design. The cutaway system is to let go. Make sure you stiffen the handles so that they can't constrict around your hands.

[davelepka 4]

Here's what you do, make your banner a rectangle/squarish shape, along the dimensions you were thinking already.

At each lower corner, construct a nice handle, maybe with some Type 17 webbing and reinforce the attachment points, and the corner of the banner.

Take two jumper, each on their belly, each holding a corner of the banner. Remind them to smile. At break off, the jumper holding the banner with his right hand releases his grip, and the jumper holding it with his left hand will hang on through his deployment. Actually, he'll try to hang on, but if things get wonky, he'll just release the banner. Maybe you find it, maybe you don't.

I would avoid attaching things to your body for the purpose of freefalling. Cutaway system or no cutaway system, it just seems like a bad idea.

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

This is the sort of thing which if done poorly can get REAL scary in a huge hurry.

I have seen video of very experienced friends of mine who took stuff with them on a jump and damn near got killed ON VIDEO.

Attaching anything to you is BAD.

Carrying anything that can readily get attached to you is BAD.

Carying anything which requires positive action to release it is BAD.

You want handles that require active work to stay in your grasp and which completely escape if you let go. Be damned wary of hand loops that could become tight due to the tension between you and the object.

Be damned sure to involve several REALLY experienced jumpers and riggers in your development of this (include your S&TA).

Ask yourself "How can this kill me?" from every possible direction. Then have someone else ask that all over again.

Take lots of time to get this right on the ground... 'cuz you will have damned little time to troubleshoot in the sky.

Blue Skies, Black Death.

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

One idea was a 3' by 7' tapered banner made out of nylon. Attached at my knee and ankle. I'd go into a slightly head-down orientation allowing it to stream behind me. For deployment I'd go back to belly and the banner should in theory collapse a bit for a clean deployment.

And what happens when all the drag from the banner makes you fall head-down like a shuttlecock, and doesn't allow you to return to a belly-to-earth position for deployment? Do you want to send your canopy out into all that crap floating behind you?

Abandon this idea. Stick to what the others here are telling you.

[buff 0]

Hummm, the SAFEST WAY to rig a banner for freefall?

PHOTOSHOP!

It's called the Hillbilly Hop N Pop dude.
If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough.
That's fucked up. Watermelons do not grow on trees! ~Skymama

[DSE 3]

Quote

For deployment I'd go back to belly and the banner should in theory collapse a bit for a clean deployment.

I'm not understanding why the banner would "collapse" a bit when you go to your belly? In theory, it becomes an even greater entanglement hazard on deployment. Not to mention that it will pitch you head low.
Stick with the hand-held concepts mentioned above. Or, do something post-deployment.

[RiggerLee 61]

I got a gig once makeing some large freefall banners. we used sections of pvc in the bottom and then had several jumpers holding the bottom edge. I was so proud of those things. I mean they were masterpeaces and we busted our asses to get them done on time. I was so proud of my self right up to the point where they disentergrated shortly after exit.

Here are some things I learned. A large banned is not a tube. It expereances more buffeting and flutter. Balloon cloth is not strong enough. It looked like it was being nibbled away at the trailing edge and disentergrated in about ten sec. Try Parapack or flag material.

Make the image big and simple. The top part will be the most blury so leave some negative space there.

Shoot it with a high speed camera. Best bet for captering a useable image. Slow shutter speeds will blure.

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[hackish 8]

Excellent ideas guys. Was hoping to hear from people with experience. Lee, do you think sewing some tape into the design might strengthen it enough that I'm not creating a shredded nylon wind drift?

The only reason I was thinking of attaching it to my legs was to have a cool shot that looked fast. The company is a performance shop so we had tossed around the idea of if you really want to go fast buy XXX products.

I would have preferred something that I'd hold on to as I always like the idea of rehersal before. Maybe at 6k I could just roll it up like the end of a toilet paper roll if I use the PCV pipe idea.

-Michael

[PhreeZone 15]

You won't be able to roll it up in freefall. You will need to either let it go or try to hold on to it though deployment and hope it does not get entangled in your opening main canopy or around you under canopy.

I've got a decent amount of experience jumping tubes made out of 1.1oz Ripstop and there isn't much you can do that will keep the ends from fraying on banners or tubes. The military teams that jump their large banners and have probably the most experience of anyone seem to have frequent blows outs at the top edge and I've seen the tapes they use on theirs. I have seen the banner rip out a few inches below the top when tapes were in place since the stresses just got moved to a different spot on the banner.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[DSE 3]

One trick that *could* be done (just did it here yesterday) is to put hard loops that can fit over your feet but not over the heel, and go out with that over the feet. As soon as you lift your feet/toes, it will immediately slide off and float on its own. However, there is still risk in that you'd want to be certain it can't go past your heels, and you couldn't deploy immediately after releasing.
The first attempt with this system on the feet of an extremely experienced skydiver resulted in bad deployment position and brake fire. and the device didn't shake free the first time because the loops were too "grippy" and needed to have electrician's tape vs gaffers tape.
IMO, it's just not worth the risk on the feet.

[RiggerLee 61]

Sewing several vertical tapes on the back of the banner was exactly what we tryed next. We'd made like five of them. These were big banners. I want to say that they were 12' by 12' with four people on the bottom of them. I think I put 7 vertical tapes on the back. It didn't do any good. If just ate away at them from the top down. It was like they disolved. all that was left was the tape and a few shreads of fabric. The olny really good shot we got was a guy flying it like a flag under canopy. The whole thing was a very embarising failure. I still blush thinking about it.

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[hackish 8]

Quote

One trick that *could* be done (just did it here yesterday) is to put hard loops that can fit over your feet but not over the heel, and go out with that over the feet. As soon as you lift your feet/toes, it will immediately slide off and float on its own. However, there is still risk in that you'd want to be certain it can't go past your heels, and you couldn't deploy immediately after releasing.
The first attempt with this system on the feet of an extremely experienced skydiver resulted in bad deployment position and brake fire. and the device didn't shake free the first time because the loops were too "grippy" and needed to have electrician's tape vs gaffers tape.
IMO, it's just not worth the risk on the feet.

Hmmm. I like the feet idea. Maybe I will see about a permanent ankle attachment for 2 little pegs and stick them inside the PVC tube. Releasing the whole affair would just consist of spreading my legs so the little pegs slide out from the ends of the larger PVC. Getting out of the A/C might be fun :)

In the case you dealt with, how did the jumper exit?

-Michael

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

I like the feet idea. Maybe I will see about a permanent ankle attachment for 2 little pegs...

You seem hell-bent on ignoring all the experienced advice here, and instead trying to re-invent the wheel, without knowing what you're doing.

Good luck. You'll need it.

[nshaver2 0]

A friend and I did this last spring. Its not too complicated the way we did it. We made handles with webbing and reinforced them like others have said and each took a corner. We had the flag folded up on exit until we got stable and then released the flag. I was surprised at how easy the flag was to hold on to, it didn't really pull us around much. The flag did get a little shredded from the wind in freefall, but it was a cheap flag so we didn't care. For deployment I let go and my friend deployed as usual and pulled the down flag as low as he could as his main opened to try and keep it clear of his lines. It worked really well and wasn't too difficult. I attached a couple pictures.

[tetra316 0]

Quote

Quote

IMO, it's just not worth the risk on the feet.

Hmmm. I like the feet idea. Maybe I will see about a permanent ankle attachment for 2 little pegs and stick them inside the PVC tube. Releasing the whole affair would just consist of spreading my legs so the little pegs slide out from the ends of the larger PVC. Getting out of the A/C might be fun :)

In the case you dealt with, how did the jumper exit?

-Michael

Did you not read this? He has done it and says it's not worth the risk

[DSE 3]

Quote

Quote

One trick that *could* be done (just did it here yesterday) is to put hard loops that can fit over your feet but not over the heel, and go out with that over the feet. As soon as you lift your feet/toes, it will immediately slide off and float on its own. However, there is still risk in that you'd want to be certain it can't go past your heels, and you couldn't deploy immediately after releasing.
The first attempt with this system on the feet of an extremely experienced skydiver resulted in bad deployment position and brake fire. and the device didn't shake free the first time because the loops were too "grippy" and needed to have electrician's tape vs gaffers tape.
IMO, it's just not worth the risk on the feet.

Hmmm. I like the feet idea. Maybe I will see about a permanent ankle attachment for 2 little pegs and stick them inside the PVC tube. Releasing the whole affair would just consist of spreading my legs so the little pegs slide out from the ends of the larger PVC. Getting out of the A/C might be fun :)

In the case you dealt with, how did the jumper exit?

-Michael

"What-if" this idea to death.
What if the peg slides through so that the banner can't release?
What if the stick falls off your body and javelin-plummets to earth?
What if the peg releases from one foot but not the other and the relative wind jams the pole into the other peg so it can't release?
IMO, having a hanging harness to test this stuff is critical. In our scenario, we spent a lot of time balancing the payload while hanging in harness. Our poor stunt guy had very sore thighs, sitting in a harness as weighted objects were balanced in the spreader.
It's a super-duper fun idea, and super duper to visualize in your head. It's really easy to visualize all the good stuff. It's very difficult to visualize all the bad stuff, and that's probably the greatest benefit of this forum is that you have a bunch of people that can help spot the bad stuff.

[hackish 8]

I like what - ifs. All good points but I'm not sure we have the same idea in mind... I'll play with the idea this weekend and see what I can come up with.

Maybe it would be safer if I just got a tandem rig and stuck a giant banner on instead of a drogue...

-Michael

[kunosoura 0]

Replacing your pilot chute with a banner is probably not the safer option.

[tetra316 0]

I'll go for 20.

[champu 1]

Ah banners... sometimes things go great... sometimes you get the attached.

By the way, attaching tubes and banners to your feet is not easy to do safely. I would stick to a two person hand-hold, keep it fairly short, and get a rigger involved as soon as you can.

/edited to add... I can picture where you're going with the pegs and pvc idea. It's going to shake your feet around and you're going to lose it right out the door. If you make the pegs long enough such that you can hang on to it, you're going to be clamping it with your heels and the body position you're going to end up in is going to make it really difficult to follow you and get the picture you're looking for.

[davelepka 4]

Check out the first pic in post 15 of this thread. That what I was talking about.

When both jumpers are facing the camera head-on, the pics look pretty good. I think the pic he posted was just before he released for deployment, so the one guy is facing the wrong way.

It's not an easy slot to fly, you have to get the exit right because if you funnel, you'll never get your grip on the flag back. Once you unfold the flag, you have to fly slot perfect, and not hang on the flag or let it move you around.

The other two pics of the deployment are great examples of hwo to do it. Size the flag so that it can't really reach much further than your risers or just above, and hold it out to the side when you dump. Jump a forgiving canopy that opens clean with no input from you. Anything that likes to spin or get silly is out because there's nothing you can do about it with the flag in your hand.

Really, don't attach anything to yourself in freefall.

[hackish 8]

Yes, so far I do like that one the best. Still in the thinking stages on this one. One thing I'm considering right now is just a 8" banner attached to each leg back with the company name on it. will be clean enough to fly safely without any snag hazard. The purpose is just to get a fast looking photo with a company name on it that looks clean and cool for all the wuffo customers.

I'll pass on wanting to look up and see what champu has in his photo!

-Michael

[PhreeZone 15]

8 inch wide streamers will not be clear enough to see in freefall. The issue with banners and logos is that only the lower 1/3rd will be clear, the middle 1/3 will be distorted and the top 1/3 will usually be very distorted due to the flapping the banner will experience in freefall.

If possilbe silkscreen the logo on since it will prevent issues from weak seams from appearing. If you look up the photos of the military teams jumping flags you will see that their banner is really 3-4 layers of material thick to keep the banner stronger and slightly stiffer in freefall. The flags that last are really bulky and are not cheap and they still suffer distortion in freefall.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com