FJC - Introducing Landing Priorities

[jacketsdb23 45]

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It's only during boogies that things get scary.

I agree boogies are a whole different animal. I haven't been to one since Lost Prairie last year. And I saw a lot of scary things there. Mixing high performance canopies with slower canopies, HP landings with traditional landings, and unfamiliar people and landing areas is just asking for trouble no matter how many rules are in place.

Everyone must realize if they allow HP landings and traditional landings in the same area, especially during boogies they are just asking for trouble. It doesn't help when licensed jumpers who are in the pattern take themselves out of the pattern by chasing the flag. If a pattern has been developed, the wind sock no longer matters unless you decided to land far away from everyone.

I just think its important that we put an emphasis on pattern behavior as a priority - leaving wind direction as a secondary emphasis.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[livendive 8]

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If the student lands in a hard bank while trying to accomplish Priority #2 then it doesn't matter that they avoided the obstacle.

I have heard of students dying from landing in a spiral, but I cannot remember anyone dying from a low turn on a student canopy. On the other hand a first jump student died earlier this month from hitting an obstacle (power lines). I am not saying it cannot happen, just looking at what is the larger hazard.

Students grow up to be up-jumpers, and what they learn as students lasts a long time. Over the last decade or so, low turns have killed far more jumpers than obstacle collisions, and I would rather have a 100-jump wonder flare his 1:1 Sabre into a tree than hook it at 50' trying to avoid that tree. Obviously in a perfect world he'd do a flat-turn to avoid the tree, and I train my students how to do those too, but when I have to prioritize A vs. B, I give deference to what's killing more of us.

All that said, the prevalence of canopy collisions in the last 2-3 years might be good reason for me to revisit my logic.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[jacketsdb23 45]

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Crosswind landings, Interesting topic and I am not sure why you bring it up.

I bring it up because some people are afraid to do it.

I digress, the FJC may not be the place for it. When they are jumping solo without instructors students should become comfortable with the idea that crosswind landings are ok and be able to perform them. Maybe on a canopy proficiency card, or as an addition to the A license proficiency card. Crosswind landings quite frankly are unavoidable and should be taught and practiced in a controlled manner if at all possible.

How many times have we heard someone explain why they landed the way they did? "well the windsock was showing this direction...blah blah blah". The windsock becomes pointless if there is another canopy in the air with you. If you aren't the first one down you follow the pattern set. If that happens to be crosswind, you better be comfortable doing it or land in a different area. This concept needs to be taught very early.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[DougH 270]

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If the student lands in a hard bank while trying to accomplish Priority #2 then it doesn't matter that they avoided the obstacle.

I have heard of students dying from landing in a spiral, but I cannot remember anyone dying from a low turn on a student canopy. On the other hand a first jump student died earlier this month from hitting an obstacle (power lines). I am not saying it cannot happen, just looking at what is the larger hazard.

I would have to agree with you there. Hopefuly by the time they get there A licenses they realize that they can make small adjustments the whole time under canopy and can avoid such a situation in the first place.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[Schoenauer 0]

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I bring it up because some people are afraid to do it.

We shoud not be afraid of it bacause it happens.

I agree in that crosswind landings should be covered with a student during their daily ground preps following there FJC as new information and it should be covered prior to being cleared to solo jump, however it should be included in the FJC if the conditions exist the day of their first jump.

I can only hope that when a student becomes “A” licensed qualified from all drop zones is that they understand that landing in the wind is preferred and that crosswind or downwind landings will happen during their life of skydiving. So the concept we must all understand is that we land in the same direction as the first person does to prevent a potential collision.

Memento Mori

[labrys 0]

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I believe that you are misinterpreting the priorities:
Priority1: Avoid other canopys
Priority2: Avoid obstacles
Priority3: Land in a straight line (wing level)
Priority4: Land into the wind
Priority5: Land in the designated area

Okay, fair enough, but please tell me a little more about what you think I am not understanding or what I'm misinterpreting . USPA guidelines and my training and my observation have led me to really believe that it's important to make sure students understand that they are a LOT more likely to be injured making a low turn to avoid an obstacle than hitting an obstacle.

I'll say right up front that I've seen students hit bad things and get hurt pretty seriously when they might have made a turn over USPA recommendations and avoided injury entirely or too a much lesser degree, but I also think that those few circumstances were the exception to the norm and that if you have to teach one thing to avoid confusing students, you have to pick what's going to work right most of the time and not what's going to work right under special conditions

Owned by Remi #?

[jsaxton 0]

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I believe that you are misinterpreting the priorities:
Priority1: Avoid other canopys
Priority2: Avoid obstacles
Priority3: Land in a straight line (wing level)
Priority4: Land into the wind
Priority5: Land in the designated area

Okay, fair enough, but please tell me a little more about what you think I am not understanding or what I'm misinterpreting . USPA guidelines and my training and my observation have led me to really believe that it's important to make sure students understand that they are a LOT more likely to be injured making a low turn to avoid an obstacle than hitting an obstacle.

I'll say right up front that I've seen students hit bad things and get hurt pretty seriously when they might have made a turn over USPA recommendations and avoided injury entirely or too a much lesser degree, but I also think that those few circumstances were the exception to the norm and that if you have to teach one thing to avoid confusing students, you have to pick what's going to work right most of the time and not what's going to work right under special conditions

One of them was me on jump #12 or so, I turned low to avoid a barbed wire fence. Luckily I was on a Navigator and a PLF saved me. I turned low on a student canopy and walked away.

[popsjumper 2]

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If you aren't the first one down you follow the pattern set.

Are you saying that the first person down gets an exception to a designated landing direction? Or, that the first person down sets the pattern? Do you really think that is a smart thing to do?

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So the concept we must all understand is that we land in the same direction as the first person does to prevent a potential collision.

Wrong.

Do you guys realize that the first-person-down concept causes problems? Can you think of what those obvious problems are? Can you tell me what problems it prevents as opposed to a designated landing direction for everyone? Do you realize the havoc it causes when those jumpers go to other DZs and/or boogies?

No, the concept we must all understand is that everyone follows a designated, standard landing pattern/direction. Period.

The only exception is a dangerous one: DZs that will not or cannot separate HP landing areas from standard pattern areas either by space or by time.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[pchapman 262]

There's a bit of a discussion here about the tricky issue of which rule is more important, avoiding obstacles or avoiding turns on landing.

It does end up depending on the obstacle (bush or power lines?) and the extent of the turn (moderate turn away, or bury a toggle?). And what's right for the first jump student may not be right for the student progressing to smaller canopies.

I don't have a perfect answer to all this. At the DZ I'm at we put obstacle avoidance first, but after presenting the rules I try to give the students a little talk about what should be common sense (to skydivers).

E.g., that if the student did end up close to an obstacle despite having been taught the idea of turning away in time, they would have to make a decision -- a fast turn that can break bones may be an OK choice if faced with power lines just ahead, but maybe not the best choice if it is a small tree ahead.

The downside of some extra talk is that it can muddy up simple rules in the students' minds, filling students with too much info to digest. But I hope that it can be done well enough to help them better interpret the true meaning of the basic rules. It also may impress on them that they are using their minds to make safer decisions and not just blindly following some rules that were listed on the classroom board.

[popsjumper 2]

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..It also may impress on them that they are using their minds to make safer decisions and not just blindly following some rules that were listed on the classroom board.

Which is why I tell my students that flying a canopy is 90% logic and common sense. The other 10% is mechanics - pull left, turn left, etc. I relate it to driving a car...which is something that they can easily understand.

For example:
While driving, do you wait until you are right up on that obstacle in the road to swerve and avoid it or are you looking out ahead of you for early recognition and making gentle corrections to get around it?

When drifting off into the other lane meeting cars head-on do you wait until the last second to swerve back into your lane or are you constantly making small corrections to maintain your lane?

No different under canopy.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Schoenauer 0]

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Are you saying that the first person down gets an exception to a designated landing direction?

Every DZ has some type of structured landing direction North/South or East/West depending on specific landing area either the expert, experienced or student, then I am saying yes. In order to eliminate collations especially at a large aircraft DZ where parallel landings are numerous then every one should lands in the same direction. The direction is set by the first person down in the specific area. And yes this may mean landing in a crosswind say in an east west only area where the winds have a northern or southern component.

I agree with that people must follow some type of predictable pattern of downwind, base, and final but this is where my agreement ends. The most dangerous portions of any landing pattern are the base and final turns, this is where people die or get hurt. This is where someone flying their base leg and in their wisdom chases the wind sox with out paying attention and end up landing against the flow on final.

Memento Mori

[popsjumper 2]

[reply...The direction is set by the first person down in the specific area.

[174fps 1]

Obstacle avoidance should not start 100ft off the ground
It is about decision making while you have plenty of altitude
We also teach flat turns close to the ground, full toggle turns up high

You would rather have them fly straight into power lines than flat turn and land parallel?

[ficus 0]

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You would rather have them fly straight into power lines than flat turn and land parallel?

If they flat turn and land parallel, they have satisfied the #1 priority, which is a straight and level wing. If they are unable to land with a canopy over their head, I would rather they fly straight into power lines than land in a turn.

I agree that obstacle avoidance starts much higher than 100 feet.

[tdog 0]

I teach the landing priorities from the USPA SIM

1) Wings level
2) Open area
3) Flare
4) PLF

I point out that LANDING INTO THE WIND IS NOT ON THE LIST.

To illustrate the point, and importance of #1 - which is the number one way to kill yourself in skydiving these days it seems, I ask the class:

1) Have you ever wiped out on a snowboard, rollerblades, or bike going 20 MPH and tumbled? How seriously were you hurt?

2) Have you ever jumped from the window of the 3rd floor of an apartment building without a rope? How seriously were you hurt?

I then say simply: "Don't die trying to land into the wind."

The culture of landing into the wind is too strong in a lot of instructor's and experienced skydivers mind. There is a reason it is not on the USPA SIM landing priorities.... BECAUSE IT IS NOT A PRIORITY.

[popsjumper 2]

Hear! Hear!

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[jacketsdb23 45]

Thanks tdog! I agree!

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.