The wisdom of Tandem skydiving

[Kbone 0]

Over the years, I have noticed the way Tandem Skydiving has become the backbone of the skydiving industry. They have become a financial crutch to many dropzones.

I have seen many dropzones alienate their experienced jumper base in favor of Tandems.
I don’t want to name the offending dropzones but we have all visited dropzones that send shivers down our spines because they have completely sold out their fanbase in favor of the “quick buck” Tandem.

When I see a dropzone that fits this description, it makes me question what Ted Strong and Bill Booth were thinking when they created this jump method. Why on earth would anyone think it would be a good idea to slap two bodies together under a single harness? Where is the logic? It looks ridiculous on video and the landings look frightening to say the least.

The drogue chute exists only as band-aid to fix the problems of hard openings due to faster than normal freefall speeds. Maybe this should have been the first clue that this type of skydiving wasn’t such a great idea.

If tandems were outlawed because of their flawed concept, how do you think it would change the industry?

What do you think would happen to Mega dropzones like Perris and Eloy?

What would small dropzones do to survive with only AFF and S/L students?

What would all the famous people do? God forbid we make them sit through a boring 6 hour class. We all know that celebrities like Leonardo DiCaprio are too special for that!

Kbone

[AggieDave 6]

You create your DZ for your student base, not your fun jumper base. Fun jumpers don't create much of a profit for the DZ and it becomes nearly a loosing business to operate a large facility and large AC for fun jumpers.

Scary tandem landings? Don't know about that, I stand nearly all of mine up now-a-days and the other ones are a gentle slide...but then again, a good number of full time TI's I've seen while traveling can do this.

Honestly, I believe that tandems are a great training method for "real" students and is a great way to boost our sport, to provide an avenue to skydiving for the masses and inject large amounts of money into the sport compared to SL/IAD and AFF.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[crewkeith 0]

amen dave. we probably would all jump 182s if it wasnt for tandems


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The skies are no longer safe

I'm back

[Kbone 0]

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and inject large amounts of money into the sport compared to SL/IAD and AFF.

The question had more to do with dropzones becoming overly dependant on a single training method.

We all know Tandems are the quick buck. That has become very obvious in my travels.

Thanks for your post.

[AggieDave 6]

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The question had more to do with dropzones becoming overly dependant on a single training method.

I tend to view it from the ISP standpoint, but then again, my DZ views students in the same manner. We prefer the tandem progression, but will do whatever the student wants for a training method. If they do a couple of IADs and aren't getting it, then we might take them on a tandem to give a more hands on approach. If they do a couple of AFFs and aren't getting it, the same thing, Aff to IAD, vice versa. Its about the student, atleast that's my outlook, the student needs to learn in which ever environment suits them best. For a large majority of the people I've encountered and trained the tandem progression has worked very very well for them.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skybytch 259]

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Honestly, I believe that tandems are a great training method for "real" students and is a great way to boost our sport, to provide an avenue to skydiving for the masses and inject large amounts of money into the sport compared to SL/IAD and AFF.

If only every person doing a tandem was a "real" student. The way tandems are marketed pretty much guarantee that a majority of tandem passengers consider it to be as safe as an amusement park ride, requiring the same level of personal responsibility.

Some of us don't feel that "the masses" need to be in the sport.

The large amounts of money available are what creates tandem factories. Tandem factories are not good for the sport.

Just this old curmudgeon's opinion. Means nothing. Moving along now.

[AggieDave 6]

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Tandem factories are not good for the sport.

Money is good for the sport, DZs need that money to propel the sport.

I know you love your DZ, do you think that Perris would do as well as it does if it wasn't for the tandem business? How about the tourist business with the tunnel? Would you have the facilities, the aircraft? If you can talk them out of it, find out how much profit is made per slot for fun jumpers. Even if they own the plane outright, its not more then a couple of bucks per head. There's no money there.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Nightingale 0]

if I hadn't done a tandem, I wouldn't be skydiving today.

I rode the plane down on level 2, after a really bad attack of the door monster nerves.

There was no way I had the courage to go up there and try another level 2 that day. The same thing would probably happen again, because I'd given into it once.

If I'd left the dropzone, I probably wouldn't have come back. It would've been a really hard thing to do.

So...I did a tandem with an instructor I really trusted. We did a level 2 skydive, but tandem. I was a little nervous on exit, but was smiling on landing. I came back a few days later and did level 2, and finished AFF within a few weeks. Doing that second tandem helped me find strength within myself, and remember how much I loved skydiving.

Tandems are a way for people to get a taste of how fun and exciting skydiving can be. I found that in my AFF 1, I had so much to do (altitude, check main JM, check reserve JM, adjust body position according to hand signals, etc...) that I didn't have time to just enjoy it. On a tandem, the passenger doesn't have to do anything in the sky but fall and arch. It gives you the opportunity to taste what it's like, without the agenda of AFF.

I think the guys who invented the tandem are brilliant. It gets people to try our sport that wouldn't otherwise, and some of those jumpers become licensed. I never thought for a moment, when I signed up for my first tandem that I'd ever jump after that. It was simply a check box on my life's to do list. I was back the next weekend doing AFF.

A tandem skydive gave me a taste of the sky, and the second tandem reminded me why I love it.

[jeffallen 0]

I am not a TI nor a DZO, and I would have to assume you are not either. In my opinion tandem jumps are a great way for people who want to experiance skydiving without the investment. As far as tandems being a flawed concept, I do not understand that statement. Ask anyone who has had theirs vidioed how silly it looks, I think they will disagree with you. Plus it is a great way to keep loads going up on slow days or us fun jumpers would be on the ground, can not send a twin turbo up with just a few fun jumpers on it. Also it is some peoples job to do tandems and video. Most DZ's could not make it on fun jumpers alone. Just my opinion, everyone has one. Jeff

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I have seen many dropzones alienate their experienced jumper base in favor of Tandems.
I don’t want to name the offending dropzones but we have all visited dropzones that send shivers down our spines because they have completely sold out their fanbase in favor of the “quick buck” Tandem.

I think that is a factor of $$ over everything else. If it wasn't tandems it would be S/L and AFF. Most fun jumpers will keep going to a DZ regardless of how they are treated, so they don't get treated very well.

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The drogue chute exists only as band-aid to fix the problems of hard openings due to faster than normal freefall speeds. Maybe this should have been the first clue that this type of skydiving wasn’t such a great idea.

Tandems are safer than AFF, especially with the Sigma. As for landings, if they look scary, then the TI doesn't know what they are doing. I took great pride in standing even the 'heavy' passengers.

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Fun jumpers don't create much of a profit for the DZ and it becomes nearly a loosing business to operate a large facility and large AC for fun jumpers.

Dave, tell that to Larry Hill.

Derek

[skybytch 259]

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I know you love your DZ, do you think that Perris would do as well as it does if it wasn't for the tandem business?

Probably not. Just because I like the facilities at Perris doesn't mean I like the fact that tandems helped build them.

Besides, Perris supports their fun jumpers. It's not what I'd term a tandem factory, even though they do more tandems in a month than many dz's do in a year.

[AggieDave 6]

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It's not what I'd term a tandem factory, even though they do more tandems in a month than many dz's do in a year.

The attitude towards the fun jumpers is very important for a DZ, that's what makes a good DZ. Since I've never been to Perris, I couldn't say how they treat jumpers, but I do know that they do a shitload of tandems. Just like any other large DZ (Larry Hill's place included Derek), without a booming student business, the DZ wouldn't survive. Hopefully the DZ treats their fun jumpers well, but that's not always the case.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Nightingale 0]

Perris is always running so many planes that a lot of tandems really isn't too much of an issue. There's usually two or three tandems on every load, so it's pretty spread out, and if you can't get on the very next plane, you can get on the one after that, and once you're on it, it's extremely rare that anyone gets bumped. The only time I've ever seen manifest bump jumpers off a load is when things have slowed down and they're shutting a plane down. I'm sure it's happened, but I haven't seen it.

[flyangel2 2]

Oh how fast you forget what was just said to you in another thread.

Besides, why would you post a General Skydiving question here in BonFire

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[AggieDave 6]

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The only time I've ever seen manifest bump jumpers off a load is when things have slowed down and they're shutting a plane down. I'm sure it's happened, but I haven't seen it.

I'm willing to bet they just get moved back to the next load, right? If a bump needs to occur, that's the best course of action. A DZ I went to a while back actually bumped me for good instead of back a load. I haven't been back there since. I know at my DZ (182) if we need to bump for a tandem, we'll simply ask the person(s) on the load if they would mind going on the next load after the tandem. Its all about compromise.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Nightingale 0]

yeah, they just bump you over to the next load. No big deal. more time to dirt dive.

[outlawhottie 0]

I totally agree with you on that one. I've only done 2 tandems, but I love it. I plan on hopefully one day getting to do AFF so I can get my license. Just few other things in life standing in the way right now. Thanks to AggieDave for my first tandem.

[dorbie 0]

I think most of your post is over the top especially w.r.t. unfounded assertions about tandem safety which is in fact statistically safer than fun jumping.

Calling a drogue a bandaid for hard openings is like calling a slider a bandaid for hard openings. You reduce the discussion instantly to pejorative observations against a successful segment of our industry, making unfounded accusations against a practical working solution that has proven itself over countless jumps.

One thing I do think is a problem however is the extortionate price of a tandem jump for people wanting to participate in the sport. It has always seemed pretty expensive to me.

Why can't we have equitable pricing for all? Why must we suffer these claims that fun jumping is supplemented by tandem jumpers? (The obvious interpretation is they've been overcharging tandem customers for years, if the claim is true) That is a CHOICE that DZO's make, not me, I don't set your prices. I show up and pay for my jumps and I believe it is possible to operate a DZ at a profit at the rates I pay, I've waited often enough for a full load for one of my fun jumps when no tandems were around so the load could make money for the DZ.

I pay for my jump tickets, and I paid for my training (and continue to do so) and usually I pay for pack jobs. I'm not supplemented by anyone, there's competition for fun jumpers where I am and I make my decision on where to jump on several criteria not just price. If we are supplemented by tandem jumpers (a somewhat dubious claim, although fewer loads would go up without them), that's a situation that has been allowed to develop for years by DZOs.

In reality I think DZ's make a profit off fun jumpers but make more margin off tandems and they've made improvements to equipment & facilities around that business. It they wanted to maintain similar profits without tandem jumpers they'd have to charge a bit more, but they may not be able to in some places with competition, it's just a different business with different margins. Blaming fun jumpers because we don't produce the same profit margin as the tandem cash cow is a silly argument. The new profitable windfall of tandem business is not an excuse to blame fun jumping for lower margins. DZ's that have become tandem factories are simply pursuing the higher margin business exclusively but possibly missing out on profit, but their life is probably a lot easier for it. That's their right, I think it's contemtible because they require TIs etc and they generally evolve from the larger sport. It's not unreasonable to say that tandem factories are supplemented in many ways by a healthy larger sport and its years in development.

[nate_1979 9]

In response to the "high price" of tandems, I'm quite fine with it.. I had to pay that high price for my tandem, as well as my student training.. It's all about paying your dues, we all do it and we all benifit from it.. Let the students continue to support the sport to an extent, looks like it's worked this long..

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[Kbone 0]

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The new profitable windfall of tandem business is not an excuse to blame fun jumping for lower margins.

You just nailed it

That is the point I was trying to convey with my original message!

DZO's need to be thankful for every customer they have, not just the wuffos.

edited to add: we all had to pay a considerable amount of money for both gear and training, we've earned that cheaper jump ticket.

[dorbie 0]

I only did a tandem as a second jump after my AFF 1, and I got a deep discount (I was grounded due to wind) so my DZ was very reasonable. I did pay full price for a tandem for a friend soon after, and of course I paid for AFF and subsequent student training.

Phrases like "paying your dues" might appeal to you but they don't to me, even though by your standards you might consider that I paid them as a student.

What the hell does that even mean "Paying your dues"? Are you implying that to get into this sport you need to supplement everyone else who's already in it when you're a student? That's absurd, and it's not even true IMHO.

I don't think student rates are high, AFF is a lot of training & supervision and the expensive jumps take two highly qualified AFFIs. Quality training & getting into the sport is the overriding goal.

A typical tandem jump has become a profit center of a different nature IMHO. Hey you can charge what you like but don't tell my I'm being supplemented because I don't turn the same profit margin as the customers getting reamed on tandem jumps.

[Superman32 0]

Bear in mind that I'm completely new and don't know anything, but I find that tandem is the most effective way of getting people introduced to the sport and comfortable enough to want to continue with it
I probably would not have made the first jump and find that most people would not be willing to try it if they did have the safety (even if only perceived) of an experienced jumper with them.

Tandem jumps also allows quick and more spontaneous decision to jump. It allows someone to go in for the day and jump instead of taking the ground school and waiting for perfect weather conditions which may take months.

Inveniam Viam aut Faciam
I'm back biatches!

[dorbie 0]

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The new profitable windfall of tandem business is not an excuse to blame fun jumping for lower margins.

You just nailed it

That is the point I was trying to convey with my original message!

DZO's need to be thankful for every customer they have, not just the wuffos.

edited to add: we all had to pay a considerable amount of money for both gear and training, we've earned that cheaper jump ticket.

Well we agree on the basic principal but I don't think paying for training and a rig earned me the right to a cheap jump ticket. Nor do I think I get it, I pay what the market price is for a jump ticket. I don't set that price except with my feet and I often jump at one of the more expensive DZs in my area.

[dorbie 0]

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Bear in mind that I'm completely new and don't know anything, but I find that tandem is the most effective way of getting people introduced to the sport and comfortable enough to want to continue with it
I probably would not have made the first jump and find that most people would not be willing to try it if they did have the safety (even if only perceived) of an experienced jumper with them.

Tandem jumps also allows quick and more spontaneous decision to jump. It allows someone to go in for the day and jump instead of taking the ground school and waiting for perfect weather conditions which may take months.

It's definitely a great introduction to the sport. Why the typical tandem price is set where it generates so much profit (if it does as claimed) is anyone's guess. I reckon whuffos don't really want to shop around for a cheap tandem skydive for obvious reasons, and maybe that's a good thing.

[Kbone 0]

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Most fun jumpers will keep going to a DZ regardless of how they are treated, so they don't get treated very well.

Another great point! If you don't live California or Florida, you may only have 1 or 2 places within driving distance to skydive.

If people don't like the way they are treated, instead of going to another dropzone, they quit skydiving entirely.

And the USPA wonders why most skydivers only last 2-3 years in this sport!