Do you have free will?

[genoyamamoto 0]

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He provides the example of a murder to support his association of determinism and pessimism. If a person is murdered, according to determinism, there is nothing one could of done to stop it. Nothing. THAT is how he explains the pessimism if determinism was true.

One further interesting implication of determinism is that it challenges the foundation of any criminal justice system. If there is no free-will, how can anyone be punished for comitting a crime when our thoughts and actions are just a consequence of the history leading up to the moment?

Gotta go... plaything needs to spank me
Feel the hate...
Photos here

[RevJim 0]

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Nobody here, and I stress NOBODY, has free will. We have cognitive thought which alone precludes free will. If we so much as think about a pro/con relationship about anything we do, free will is gone. Our thought processes guide us, and those are based on things we learned, or didn't learn, while growing up.

Do you believe that Galileo, Newton, and Einstein were geniuses by circumstance?

A lot of the theories and concepts they wrote about in their works were radically new, not only not using what they had learned, but completely trouncing it.

Did you forget the Galileo denounced all of his works in order to satisfy the church? yep, lots of free will there.

Free thought vs. free will

There is plenty of thought here. But will? I don't think so.

It's your life, live it!
Karma
RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1

[turtlespeed 212]

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Nobody here, and I stress NOBODY, has free will. We have cognitive thought which alone precludes free will. If we so much as think about a pro/con relationship about anything we do, free will is gone. Our thought processes guide us, and those are based on things we learned, or didn't learn, while growing up.

Do you believe that Galileo, Newton, and Einstein were geniuses by circumstance?

A lot of the theories and concepts they wrote about in their works were radically new, not only not using what they had learned, but completely trouncing it.

Did you forget the Galileo denounced all of his works in order to satisfy the church? yep, lots of free will there.

Free thought vs. free will

There is plenty of thought here. But will? I don't think so.

I think I will.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Shotgun 1]

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(As dictionary.com defines) Free will: The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

Well, I don't believe in any sort of god, so divine will is out. And I don't believe that events are predetermined, so fate is out. Of course our choices are somewhat constrained by external circumstances, but I don't feel forced to choose any one particular thing, so I say yes we do have free will (or at least I do; not being inside anyone else's head, I can't really speak for anyone else).

[Slappie 9]

If you were to sit in your hovel in the ground. Not doing anyting you would have free will. In todays world (2005) there is no such thing as free will anylonger. Everything you do or propose to do will have restrictions or some type of rule that applies to restrict certain actions.

You may feel you have free will, as long as you follow certain guidelines and laws you may do as you wish.

Tricky question, as I alway felt I was a rebel with a free will.. Found out fast at a young age. There is no such thing anymore. Everything is governed by something outside your control.

Everything...

"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them."

[Slappie 9]

After reading more and more of the posts in this thread. I'm realising there are alot of deluded people in this world.

It's really a shame.

"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them."

[RevJim 0]

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After reading more and more of the posts in this thread. I'm realising there are alot of deluded people in this world.

It's really a shame.

yes, Slap, I agree.

Kinda like smoking, huh?

It's your life, live it!
Karma
RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1

[Shotgun 1]

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After reading more and more of the posts in this thread. I'm realising there are alot of deluded people in this world.

Interesting... Would the "deluded people" be the ones who don't happen to share your opinion on this subject?

[Slappie 9]

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After reading more and more of the posts in this thread. I'm realising there are alot of deluded people in this world.

Interesting... Would the "deluded people" be the ones who don't happen to share your opinion on this subject?

Not at all.. it's your free will to have an opinion that differs from mine.

"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them."

[Shotgun 1]

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Not at all.. it's your free will to have an opinion that differs from mine.

So now you're admitting that we do have free will.

[RevJim 0]

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Not at all.. it's your free will to have an opinion that differs from mine.

So now you're admitting that we do have free will.

Nah, you just think you do.

It's your life, live it!
Karma
RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1

[champu 1]

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Did you forget the Galileo denounced all of his works in order to satisfy the church? yep, lots of free will there.

Free thought vs. free will

There is plenty of thought here. But will? I don't think so.

Does will only apply to locomotion? Does exercising will over your thoughts constitute free will?

[RevJim 0]

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Did you forget the Galileo denounced all of his works in order to satisfy the church? yep, lots of free will there.

Free thought vs. free will

There is plenty of thought here. But will? I don't think so.

Does will only apply to locomotion? Does exercising will over your thoughts constitute free will?

The fact that you had to think about it in the first place takes away the will part. Really. Think about that.

It's your life, live it!
Karma
RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1

[Shotgun 1]

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Nah, you just think you do.

And my thoughts = my reality.

[Slappie 9]

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Not at all.. it's your free will to have an opinion that differs from mine.

So now you're admitting that we do have free will.

I think, you having a differing opinion then mine is regulated by something somewhere.

"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them."

[champu 1]

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The fact that you had to think about it in the first place takes away the will part. Really. Think about that.

Careful now, that arguement begs the question.

You assume it's a fact that I had to think about it at the outset. It's remarkably easy to show anything to be true if you take it as a given.

[RevJim 0]

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Nah, you just think you do.

And my thoughts = my reality.

Heh, nice.

It's your life, live it!
Karma
RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1

[turtlespeed 212]

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Nah, you just think you do.

And my thoughts = my reality.

Heh, nice.

Yep - perception is reality -

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[samhussey 0]

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I think everyone has free will, but it is constrained by norms and conventions in society.

What do you mean by 'constrained'? Do you mean that people stick to social convention, like wearing clothes and eating with a knife and fork and such?

Yes, but this can extend from things as mundane as that as choosing wether or not to obey the law, religiously imposed behaviour, general views of morality etc...

[Ladybug 0]

Do I have free will? I don't know, it seems to be circular. It is the possibility of consequences that keep some people in line.

I would love to have more cash on hand. I could CHOOSE to rob a convenience store on the way home - how convenient - heheh, but it is the knowledge that I'd probably get caught, and get thrown in jail that keeps me from doing such a thing.

If I TRULY had free will, couldn't I choose to be rich? Obviously I could choose to break the law, but I would run out of choices once caught. I think the rules of society allow us to use free will to an extent, but there comes a point when it can certainly be taken away.

just my 2 cents
Dawn

[flyingferret 0]

Perhaps some discussion of the definition is in order. All of the studies that I have had balance free will with pre ordination. In the opposite, your choice was decided long before you made it by fate/God/whatever.

So, perhaps you and I are using the words differently. But, what you appear to citing is the absence of cause and effect, that of course does not exist, nor could it possibly ever exist under our laws of physics. What cite are choices unrestricted by a foreign entity, and we have that. Forces may out on the outcome either way, but the choice is not restricted. IF it were, we would restrict crime, but restricting the decision no?

--
All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI.

[Slappie 9]

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Perhaps some discussion of the definition is in order. All of the studies that I have had balance free will with pre ordination. In the opposite, your choice was decided long before you made it by fate/God/whatever.

So, perhaps you and I are using the words differently. But, what you appear to citing is the absence of cause and effect, that of course does not exist, nor could it possibly ever exist under our laws of physics. What cite are choices unrestricted by a foreign entity, and we have that. Forces may out on the outcome either way, but the choice is not restricted. IF it were, we would restrict crime, but restricting the decision no?

Hey ferret you got some notes for all that? I can't understand a flippin thing you just said.

"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them."

[SarahC07 0]

Yeah, I didn't follow that either

I think people in general are confusing freedom with free will.

I think people do have free will.

[JonBonGraham 0]

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We have cognitive thought which alone precludes free will.

Why should this be the case? So if I think about a choice between A and B, suddenly the choice I make is predetermined? How do you come to this conclusion?

Durham University Freefall Club

Grounds For Divorce website (band I'm in)

[ZoneRat 0]

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Yeah, I didn't follow that either

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Pre-ordained vs. non-preordained:

I think of it this way. You put in a movie. The first time you watch it, the characters all seem to be making choices. What to say, where to go, grab the knife... whatever.

But they don't really have free choice, cause the movie is already made. Every time you play it, it turns out the same.

So. If fate exists, if life is pre-ordained, then we're like the characters in the movie.

*****
What RevJim seems to be saying is this:
Lets say you have 3 people sitting in a doctors office waiting for a routine physical. One gets up and get a coke from the nearby machine. Another starts flipping through a magazine. The third sits quietly in thought, staring at her shoe.

The person got the coke because his personal history, his subconscious perhaps, tells him that coke is a familiar and safe thing, and will provide him with a pleasant activity besides just sitting. A good friend, if perceptive enough, could've even predicted he'd get that coke. He's seen him do that on other similar occasions.

The person read the magazine, because well, that's just what people do in Dr.'s waiting rooms. That's what his mom did when he was little, and that what he's seen on tv, and that's just what he does.

The person lost in thought is staring at her shoe thinking because she's worried about what she'll have to tell her husband if the test results come out unfavorably. She couldn't get a coke, cause her personal history sez that'll make her fat and besides, she thinks best when staring at her shoe... a habit she got when eating morning ceral as a kid absentmindingly pondering the day ahead.

If I understand RevJim right, these people couldn't do anything else because their personal history only really allows for one choice Even acting unpredictably has a basis in personal history and pattern- only more convolulted.

It's sort've like Plato's cave. You cant step outside your own thinking and history.

****
and Turtle... That's my least favorite popular quote...

Perception is NOT reality. Perception is an attempt to measure reality. Reality is reality...

That help at all?

“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophies.”

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