Slightly bent reserve closing pin

[yarak 0]

I would jump that bad boy. If you go in, with a no pull we will all learn something and replace our slightly bent pins.

I once used a piece of coat hanger for a reserve pin. that thing bent all the time. I would just bend it back straight.

I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll burn your fucking packing tent down.

[awagnon 0]

This is slightly off topic and a NOOB question. Looking at the second photo of the original post, it appears the reserve pin could be withdrawn without breaking the sealing thread between the seal and the reserve closing loop. If this were to happen, could the seal interfere with the reserve container opening? Has this ever happened? I start AFF next week. One more thing to worry about or not?

Alton

"Luck favors the prepared."

[indyz 1]

The seal and thread are not attached to the loop or reserve container, only to the pin. Below the seal it just loops around the pin. Above the seal it is tied onto the cable with a larkshead knot (you can see it in the blurry first picture). The seal will either be carried along with the ripcord or it will slip of the end of the pin, depending on where the thread breaks. Either way, it won't interfere will the reserve operation.

[inextremis 0]

You might ask your rigger how he opened the rig to swap out the CYPRES. Sometimes there is an attempt to get a spectra pull up cord through the loop under the pin so that the loop is not lost into the reserve when the rig is opened (making it necessary to gently put a rod through the pack job or completely repack the reserve). Usually if you try to get a cord through the loop under the pin, the pin is bent slightly in the process. I did it once a few years ago on my own rig and discovered how dumb it was (and bought a new Mirage ripcord in the process). If your rigger bent your pin, he should replace the ripcord.

[awagnon 0]

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The seal and thread are not attached to the loop or reserve container, only to the pin. Below the seal it just loops around the pin.

Thanks for the clarification, Brian. From the photos, it looked like the thread actually passed through the reserve closing loop which didn't make much sense to me.

Alton

"Luck favors the prepared."

[hackish 8]

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Hey Hackish -- check out Poynter's, it has a little bit of info (not a lot) on the steels used and the manufacturing process.

I did last night when I got home actually. They listed 302 or 303 stainless. A slightly higher carbon content than 304. They both work harden quite easily so unless the manufacturer anneals them after they've been formed I would expect them to be in a hardened form. I also asked our local Rigger B (Master Rigger) if he had any junk pins I could try a rockwell test on but unfortunately he did not.

Poynter also says that they would typically have a 2x design factor so in theory the pin might survive a 16lb instead of an 8lb block test. An engineering type might know if the physics translate properly in this fashion.

-Michael

[JerryBaumchen 1,304]

Hi Michael,

I would be interested in any results you might get working with/testing pins.

Work hardening usually just effects the surface of the material whereas heat treating, properly done, will effect the material 100%, or all the way through.

I, personally, have had stainless work harden on me when drilling holes in it. The secret is to not stop once you start the drilling.

Also, work hardening effecting just the surface is not restricted to stainless steel. I have seen it effect ferrous metals also.

Keep us posted if you do get to do some testing.

JerryBaumchen

PS) If you want a couple of sample-unused ripcord pins let me know; I'll need your address.

[mjosparky 4]

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An engineering type might know if the physics translate properly in this fashion.

JerryBaumchen = Engineering type. Also holder of a couple of TSO’s of the C23 type.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[hackish 8]

Thanks for the offer Jerry, someone is going to send me a couple of pins and I'll see if I can fit them in the rockwell tester. Some are newer and some are older so it will also be interesting to see if there is a difference between them. Maybe I will take one and anneal it then compare the standard pin test on both.

Sadly there is probably already someone in the parachute industry who has studied all this stuff and already knows the answers.

As for work hardening, it is my understanding that the amount of hardening is related to the amount of plastic deformation. In other words, shotpeen something and it will be surface hardened but swage it or form it and you'll harden it all the way through since you're deforming the entire piece, not just the surface. Also, it is not possible to heat treat austenitic stainless for hardness.

For work hardening while drilling, yes but it's more dependant on selecting the proper feed rate since you need to ensure you're taking a thick enough "chip" out. More than once I've had to anneal a hole with a TIG torch and try to avoid pulling the chromium out. Torch in one hand, water in the other :) I've even found that water cutting seems to harden 304 up pretty badly.

I'll post it up for all to read when I get to testing these pins.

-Michael

[JerryBaumchen 1,304]

Sparky,

Shhhhhhhhh,

JerryBaumchen

[pjc 0]

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We did a pull test and I believe it was right at 3-5lbs to pull the pin (Way lower than the max of 12lbs iirc).
reply]

I don't know if we measure different in the UK to the US but our max pull is 22lb's and this must be tested and written on the repack form on every repack. I personally would not be comfortable jumping with a reserve pull force of 3lb's as I would consider that the pin would be too easy to dislodge. Maybe you lot are just a bit limp wristed

[mjosparky 4]

In the US the maximum is 22 lb. but the minimum is 5 lbs.

4.3.2.4 Primary Actuation Device/Ripcord, Actuation Force Tests: A load at the ripcord handle, or equivalent, of not less than 5 lbf (22.2 N), applied in the direction giving the lowest pull force, nor more than 22 lbf (97.9 N), applied in the direction giving the highest pull force under normal design operations, shall result in a positive and quick deployment initiation on all tests. A minimum of 10 pull tests is required. For chest type parachute assemblies, the maximum pull force shall be 15 lbf
(66.7 N).

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[x46255 0]

I ended up taking the rig along and jumped it a couple times after I had some riggers take a look at it and determined that pull force is within limits and didn't notice any signs that the pin might break...still here and didn't take a reserve ride so who knows what would've happened... Not planning on jumping it again until I replace the pin on the next reserve repack. Thanks for the advice and suggestions. Blue skies!

[hackish 8]

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OK, I'll take that bet; a $1 to a stale donut.

Ok, Jerry owes a stale doughnut or a dollar... or something like that.

Just got back from the machine shop. The swaging and the round part of the pin were significantly work hardened. Swaging came in at about 60 and the pin around 50 while the unswaged and unformed part of the pin which may or may not be slightly work hardened came in at 10.

I will do some additional testing to determine the amount of force required to yield the pin itself. This will translate to how many pounds of closing force you can apply before bending the pin.

-Michael

[JerryBaumchen 1,304]

Hi Michael,

Donut is in the mail; with the Canadian Postal System you may see it in 2010,

JerryBaumchen

PS) Good work, thanks for the email.

[DJL 235]

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I ended up taking the rig along and jumped it a couple times after I had some riggers take a look at it and determined that pull force is within limits and didn't notice any signs that the pin might break...still here and didn't take a reserve ride so who knows what would've happened... Not planning on jumping it again until I replace the pin on the next reserve repack. Thanks for the advice and suggestions. Blue skies!

Ok, really? You have some riggers say it's OK. And you still think you were risking a reserve total but you jump it anyway?

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[hookitt 1]

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Quote

I ended up taking the rig along and jumped it a couple times after I had some riggers take a look at it and determined that pull force is within limits and didn't notice any signs that the pin might break...still here and didn't take a reserve ride so who knows what would've happened... Not planning on jumping it again until I replace the pin on the next reserve repack. Thanks for the advice and suggestions. Blue skies!

Ok, really? You have some riggers say it's OK. And you still think you were risking a reserve total but you jump it anyway?

That's how I read it which is why I would never have posted that reply in lieu of rhetorical questions.

--
Honestly, if that pin was on my own personal reserve ripcord, my concern level would be zero.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[hackish 8]

A rigger can only do the best they can do. For some that means continuing to study and practise. The rigging ticket is like an "A" license. The advice given by every "licensed" skydiver isn't always good nor is the advice of just any rigger. I will continue to play with these pins and post the findings with hopes it will help the general rigging knowledge in the community.

-Michael

[councilman24 37]

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Ok, Jerry owes a stale doughnut or a dollar... or something like that.

Just got back from the machine shop. The swaging and the round part of the pin were significantly work hardened. Swaging came in at about 60 and the pin around 50 while the unswaged and unformed part of the pin which may or may not be slightly work hardened came in at 10.

I will do some additional testing to determine the amount of force required to yield the pin itself. This will translate to how many pounds of closing force you can apply before bending the pin.

-Michael

I don't understand what areas your refering to. You talk about the the pin and the unformed part of the pin. I don't understand what your referring to. The whole pin is forged. Part of the problem with brittle pins is that the dies used by Capewell were old and worn. And they got in some bad steel.

Were this pins on swaged on cable and were you testing the swaged part? Your earlier post talked about pins but not whether they were on cable or not.

Maybe a diagram with your results?

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[hackish 8]

I'm going to write an article on my findings, but if you look at a pin you will see that the pin part has been worked into it's pin shape. In fact you can even see a slight taper on the pin shaft itself from where it was worked into that nice round shape.

Next, look at the swaged part. You can see where it was "smashed" by repeated blows to deform the metal so it flows into the cable forming the swage. These areas, are confirmed to be much harder than the area in front of the swage where the metal was worked less. Although I didn't anneal a pin completely to see how much this area was work hardened, there are 3 different areas of hardness in the pin.

-Michael

[tbrown 26]

A pin that has started to bend can always bend some more - usually at the worst possible time.

This "slight" bend might also be an indicator that yet another manufacturing lot of pins has slipped through quality control. There may be other pins from the same lot that are in worse condition on other people's rigs.

This ripcord should not only be replaced, but the manufacturer notified with as much data as possible about where the ripcord came from, lot numbers, manufacture dates, etc, if known.

There are already a lot of newbies around who don't remember the last pin scare in 2003 when just about everyone's rig had to be tested and signed off on the packing data card, as well as having a stamp taped to the handle, before the rig could be jumped again.

This is serious shit folks, bent pins are totally unacceptable.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[ChangoLanzao 0]

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A pin that has started to bend can always bend some more - usually at the worst possible time.

This "slight" bend might also be an indicator that yet another manufacturing lot of pins has slipped through quality control. There may be other pins from the same lot that are in worse condition on other people's rigs.

This ripcord should not only be replaced, but the manufacturer notified with as much data as possible about where the ripcord came from, lot numbers, manufacture dates, etc, if known.

There are already a lot of newbies around who don't remember the last pin scare in 2003 when just about everyone's rig had to be tested and signed off on the packing data card, as well as having a stamp taped to the handle, before the rig could be jumped again.

This is serious shit folks, bent pins are totally unacceptable.

Are you saying that there's such a thing as a perfectly straight pin, and that only perfectly straight pins that cannot be bent are acceptable?

[old_timer 0]

Murphy's Law what can go wrong will go wrong!

Replace it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[x46255 0]

Update for anyone that cares...

I ordered a new reserve ripcord handle and haven't been jumping the rig...plan on getting it replaced prior to getting it back in the air (luxury of winter in the mid-atlantic and having a back up rig).

Thanks to everyone that contributed advice. I'll look forward to Hackish's findings.

[hackish 8]

I have written an article about it. I am still waiting for some details from manufacturers so my facts an analysis is as complete as I can manage. I am also going to speak to an aeronautical professor who is interested in my findings so at least the technical info can be somewhat reviewed before it is published.

-Michael