New gear vs. used gear

[porpoishead 5]

I bought a brand new rig straight from student status (new container, new main, older reserve but never used or packed, and cypres1 that had 4 years left on it)

I put 120 jumps on that rig, then sold that entire rig with a fresh reserve repack in a ready to jump status. all the guy had to do was turn on the cypres. I got back exactly what I paid for it...minus the I&R's the rig still looked brand new.

then I bought another brand new rig. new V3. new main, new reserve, new cypres2. have about 100 jumps on it and it still looks brand new. could probably sell it for just about what I have in it...but don't plan to. it has a 168pilot that I have loaded at 1.25 this rig is plenty fun to fly. I don't yet see any reason to downsize any further. if I downsize for whatever reason in the future, I will just buy another brand new rig and just keep my current rig as a secondary.

I have always had, jumped, learned to pack on new canopies. so I have no fear of slick nylon if it goes in the rig then I will pack it in there.

to me there is no comparison to jumping brand new custom gear.


used gear works sure.

do you really need to downsize until youre flying a sub 100.. I don't need to, you may though??


anyway thats how I roll.. so hope that helps bud be safe out there don't do too much new stuff at once, and check your gear often.

if you want a friend feed any animal
Perry Farrell

[prodiver913 0]

i ordered a brand new, custom Vector-3 with a Triathlon 175 when I was on my 15th jump. I new it would take 6 months and I ordered everything based on where I would be 6 months from that point. I love it. I now have a Pilot 150 that I load 1.37 and my rig still looks and flies like new. If you have the money and you're jumping regularly than do what you want. There are no downsizing rules. When you feel comfortable doing it then go.

I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.

[porpoishead 5]

right on john go easy...don't pound yourself in with a rush to downsize bro....

be safe you're already under a pretty good wing loading..

if you want a friend feed any animal
Perry Farrell

[prodiver913 0]

i will man. i'll keep this one for quite a while. quite a while. I fly it better and feel more comfortable flying it than flying my triathlon and I am very conservative under it. front riser dives from base to final from 450 ft is the craziest I get.

I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.

[regulator 0]

I agree with you. Once I get my rig I plan on jumping the hell out of that 170. I weigh 150 lbs. so I dont think thats too agressive for me. I have no intentions on swooping or HP landings. I just want to jump (alot) and get enough numbers to start wingsuiting. But hey I'll need a D license for that (most likely) and by then I can buy a new rig that will accomidate a wingsuit better. Til then I'll be jumping this new rig alot. Thanks for the assistance brother! See you at the Nationals this year? Skydive Spaceland? Woo Hoo!!

[porpoishead 5]

LOL!!!


don't know if you will see me at nationals bud I'm not a competitor. I fly for the soul...



above john wrote that there are no rules for downsizing. this may be true, but there are certainly recommendations written by many people that have way more experience than all three of us put together.

better to be safe and minimize the risks by eliminating as many hazards as possible. not a smart move to get too far ahead of your current skill level.
there are dangerous situations that may arise at any given time that may be beyond your control.

your reaction,hesitation, inexperience, or failure to respond in a timely fashion to these inherent dangers might be the difference between life and death.

if you want a friend feed any animal
Perry Farrell

[skybytch 259]

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There are no downsizing rules. When you feel comfortable doing it then go.

That ranks right up there at the top of the list of "worst advice ever given on dropzone.com."

[prodiver913 0]

There is no good advice given on DZ.com. We don't know anyone we're talking to or the situation they're in. I don't know how many people I have run into and they're confused because they have asked for advice here and received 100 different answers. There are no downsizing rules. Are you kidding me? When you are comfortable enough to downsize then you do it. And yes, talk to a DZO or instructor at your DZ who has jumped with you or has seen you jump and consult with them too. It could be 50 jumps to downsize or 1000. It all depends on the person. Based on how I was flying and jumping I had an idea where I would be and now I dont plan on downsizing for a very long time. Everyone is different.

I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.

[skybytch 259]

Sorry, didn't realize you had so many jumps and so much time in sport. I'm sure you know far more than people like Brian Germain, with his measly 15000 jumps and 20+ years in the sport.

[monkycndo 0]

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OP means original poster... f***ing acronyms.

Hey, at least it wasn't a TLA.

*which is a TLA in itself*

Educate me... I come up with the following and more.

Terminate and Leave Activated
Termination Liability Agreement
Territorial Local Authorities (New Zealand)
Texas Library Association
The Lawrence Arms (band)
The Lost Age (game)
Theater Lead Agent (US DoD)
Theater of the Living Arts (Philadelphia, PA)
Thin Layer Activation
Three Letter Abbreviation

(T)hree (L)etter (A)cronym

I had a friend that used lots of TLAs at her work. I got tired of her having to explain them all, so ended up learning them.

50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

[Skydivesg 6]

quote " but could you fill me in on how a one size higher d-bag could possibly cause a mal?"
****************************************

Paul, it is my opinion that a one size bigger bag can not cause a malfunction which is why I posted that I have not had a malfunction in the last 4000 jumps, even though I have used this method since 1989.

Now, if you get a bag so big that the canopy does not fill it out enough or does not put enough pressure on the closing flap/bib so as to keep your locking stows firm then yes, it could cause a malfunction by causing an out of sequence opening. But that is not what I'm suggesting.

When you watch most people pack, you will see them struggling with getting the canopy in the bag. I've seen some people make two or three attempts before finally winning the battle. All the while they are messing up that pack job they spent so much time getting pefect. And then most people have fabric sticking out of the closing flap after making the locking stows. Now, that will cause a malfuntion or at the very least an off heading opening due to out of sequence openings.

Going up one size will not cause a problem but will make a huge difference when it comes to putting your canopy in the bag. If you can put it in the bag with less hassle and less wrestling of fabric then doesn't it make sense that the canopy will be more likely to come out in the sequence you intended?

Plus the more you fight the fabric the more likely you will allow the slider to ease down from the stops which is not good.

And we all know that as soon as you leave ZP alone for a few seconds it seems like it doubles in size.
Which is why I've never had a problem with my canopy filling out the bigger bag.

I also double wrap all of my line stows. Yes, even the locking stows. WOW. I'm really sticking my neck out there now.

Let the flame throwing begin.

Sandy

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[prodiver913 0]

it has nothing to do with that. holy shit. grow the fuck up. I cannot stand negative people. All I am saying is that people should NOT take any advice from this site on the topic of jumping and/or gear. It is way to personal and everyone in our sport has evolved differently and at different rates. I am guilty of giving and taking advice on these topics. Only people who personally know someone or have jumped with them should offer their opinion on an area as important as downsizing. And now I know why so many skydiving friends of mine get sick of this site. Too many fucking anal people like yourself making comments like, "Sorry, didn't realize you had so many jumps and so much time in sport." Thanks for taking life way to seriously and this will be my last post on DZ.com. I'll concentrate on just the jumping part of skydiving. You can stay on here and make bullshit remarks to people who are just having fun. And Brian Germain is a god among men and probably one of the best jumpers I have seen. But even he wouldn't give personal advice to someone he has never met or jumped around.

I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.

[regulator 0]

Well obviously I'm not going to the nationals to compete either...I'm just going to check it out because the nationals will be at my home DZ for the first time. It should be pretty sweet to watch. This would be my first nationals to ever see and I'd just like to check it out. Blue skies brother. PS I just like to jump to jump as well. I dont really 'plan' on doing anything competitive, but as I gain more experience, who knows what'll happen. Hey if anything is possibly in the world who knows maybe even I can be the next DBC? Maybe that a bit lofty?

[regulator 0]

I know it might not be any consolation, but her name is SkyBytch....hmmmm?

[nomal2day 0]

Hello Paul

I see this is getting a bit testy...

New or used probably boils down to two main things: finances and timing. If finances are not a problem, most people would buy new stuff in almost all walks of life. If I was a millionaire, would I buy a clapped-out old car just to save 30k? No way! Timing is important if the time it takes to get what you want is longer than the time before the event you want to use your gear at! The more important the event, the more important the time factor is in your decision...

My 2 cents: I wanted my own gear because I wanted it to be available to me when I wanted to jump, I wanted to jump the same rig every time to assist in experience building, and I was a tightwad who wanted to save the $35 I had to pay every time I used the beer tent (aka the student rig).

I also didn't want to buckle and break myself by attempting too much too soon.

Finances, while important, were fortunately not a massive problem at that stage, and timing was that although there was no specific event, I was eager to get going. I also figured that on my own gear I could 'save' the $35 per jump, so the more I jumped the more I saved! (Twisted logic, and you can justify anything to yourself if you want to!!) 100 jumps would equal $3,500; if I sold the gear after 100 jumps for a difference of less than $3,500 from what I paid for it, I was ahead.

I bought a Mirage G3 with about 50 jumps here on dz.com. It came with good extra's, and a PD 176 reserve. I am very happy with it, and the seller (who has been mentioned earlier) got a good sale too.

Now, timing. I was struggling to find an AAD, as they seem to be as scarce as rockinghorse shit in the used gear market, so I bought a brand new Cypres and it arrived and was fitted withing 3 days. After all, I can always take it with me and it lasts 12 years. At the same time I bought a brand new PD Storm 190 canopy in stock PD colors, and physically in stock, and it also arrived and was fitted withing 3 days. After all, it is the one thing that has to save my life on every single jump.

Being a newbie, I got my instructor to do the first jump on the whole lot, just in case there was a major snafu somewhere; better to be down here watching him up there......

My current WL is 1/1. The Storm is a 7-cell and I like it so much I would sleep with it if it did not rustle such a lot! Soft, predictable openings, 3-400ft snivel (estimation, as this still needs more observation for me), on heading and no problems yet. (The beer tent gave me 720 line twists on AFF 1, but that could easily have been my bad body position). The Storm flies at full throttle at just over 30mph, and has a lot of flare power, but I have to use full arm extension to utilize it.

Bottom line, I bought some new stuff, some good quality used stuff, and am extremely satisfied with it all. According to my accounting logic, I will be in good shape when I decide to sell it.

The future is not easy to predict, it depends on how I progress, how many jumps I do in the months and years ahead, and what my instructors and mentors say as time passes. But if the time comes to change gear, I would like to fly my 'own' colors, and also stay up to date with the latest safety and other enhancements. My present thoughts would be to order a custom Mirage G4 M4 with several options, including their new RSL system and if they have magnetic riser covers at that stage, even better. I will order a custom colored Storm 170, to match my new container, keep my existing Cypres and probably the 176 reserve. But we will see and maybe the plan will be refined...

This post got a bit long, but I guess it can be summarized into buying what YOU like, that YOU are comfortable with, that suits YOUR experience and abilities, and will be the foundation of YOUR long and happy future skydiving career. Note that the word YOU is quite important!

Blue skies and have fun!!!

'To fly is heaven, to freefall is divine'

'You only need 2 tools. WD40 for when it doesn't move but should, and duct tape for when it moves but shouldn't'

[regulator 0]

What you say makes sense to me. Sorry if I rambled a little bit regarding a baglock. I hope noone flames what you say because it does seem reasonable. Thanks so much for your input and I will DEFINATELY ask my rigger when I order my new rig, if this could be an option if its a really tight space inside the container. Of course, I will ask alot more questions when I order the rig and make sure I am making the best decision. Since we are on the subject...and since you have been so helpful, Is the difference between the 'thin' and wide risers that much of a difference, or just personal preference?

Thanks so much for your help

Paul

[hookitt 0]

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I know it might not be any consolation, but her name is SkyBytch....hmmmm?

Who happens to be a very sweet and knowledgeable and caring skydiver who sold gear for many years and has been a rigger since 93. She's good people. Learn not to judge so much. My current user name may have been appropriate at one time but I should change it to FlatTurnTim to keep up with the times.

Remember, We will have you pummeled if the morale does not improve.

Here's another one.

" I have no intentions on swooping or HP landings."

You say that now but I can almost guarantee that will change.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[hookitt 0]

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i... holy shit. grow the fuck up. I cannot stand negative people

We need better smilies, just doesn't match what I'm trying to portray properly but here it is again.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Skydivesg 6]

Paul, the mini risers are pretty standard on most personal sport rigs now days. I've used them for the past 17 or 18 years.

It's mostly a preference but here are some things that may help you decide.

If you want to use soft links or "Slinks" (which is the trend) then you will most likely want mini risers. It is possible to use "Slinks" on the larger risers but it makes it very difficult to get them on properly. Slinks keep your slider grommets from getting damaged when the slider comes all the way down your lines on opening.

Also if you want to pull your slider down behind your head then you will want mini risers (and slinks) so the slider grommets will come down over the risers. Many young jumpers don't think they will want to do this but often change their minds after getting more experience.

Bringing the slider down behind your head in combination with loosening your chest strap after opening, will allow the canopy to flatten out, thus making it a more efficient and stable wing.

Some people will tell you that you don't need to mess with bringing the slider down and expanding your chest strap. Those are usually people who don't do it and therefore don't understand the benefits.

When I conduct a canopy course it's one of the first things I have the participants do. By the end of the course they can't imagine going back to the old way.
But I digress.

I would suggest you talk to your rigger in more detail about mini risers and Slinks.

Keep asking questions of everyone but know this: just because someone has thousands of jumps or is a rigger or an instructor, or willing to opine on the internet, does not mean that they have all the right answers.

Take the information you get and run it by others. But make sure they tell you the "why" behind their answers and then employ your critical thinking skills. There are many varied opinions out there.
Some are right, some are wrong, some are just different.

Good luck and Be Safe

Sandy

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[billvon 2,435]

>Is the difference between the 'thin' and wide risers that much of a difference,
>or just personal preference?

There are two issues - size of 3 ring release and riser size. Type 8 is wide; type 17 is narrow.

You can get a large or small 3-ring release on a type 8 riser. You can only get a small 3-ring release on a type 17 riser. A small 3 ring release will fit onto a small harness ring; a small 3 ring release will fit onto a large harness ring but the geometry will be off and the cutaway forces may be higher than expected. A large 3 ring release will not fit onto a small harness ring.

Type 17 risers (and more importantly small 3 ring releases) can be overloaded by heavy guys during hard openings. This can cause cutaway failures and malfunctions. Type 8 risers are a good choice if your exit weight is pushing 200lbs and you have a microlined canopy, since microline has no give at all.

If you do use type 17 risers, replace them regularly (once every 500 jumps or so.) As time goes on they wear and lose both strength and dimensionality, leading to harder cutaways (and in extreme cases riser failure.)

[TerminatorSRT4 0]

Well I'm in the same boat as you, minus one thing, I didn't order a smaller canopy in hopes that "by the time my rig got here I would be ready to downsize". I've been using student gear and been flying a 220 square Icarus main. I ordered a 210 PD Silhouette (which is semi-elliptical).

I had the same thoughts as you, I didn't want to buy used for the same reasons I don't buy anything used (cars, jet skis, etc) because you never know what the person did to it before you. However I also agree that is what a rigger is for, to inspect everything on a used piece of gear and make sure it is safe and what you were expecting. But I personally didn't want to go through all that hassle, so I bought everything new. (Which I know can also have some problems, but the manufacturer will at least pay for any errors they made...I hope )

In the end it's your choice and your money. I had the money and as someone mentioned above, they sold their brand new rig a year or so later and got the same price out of it! I have both new canopies right now and a new Cypres 2, tomorrow my container should get here and I will have it put together this weekend.

My main thing to you is to don't think you're going to want to downsize. Are you really not having anymore fun out of that 190? Is that 190 really too slow for you? Have you had to make a less than desirable landing on that 190? I'm in no major rush to downsize, especially after reading over some of the horror stories on the forums from people who have downsized too quickly. At this point in time I don't think I've ever seen a better sight in my life than on all the times I've looked up to see all 220 sq ft of my big old lumbering student canopy as my ride for the next 5 or so minutes. I think I'll have the same thoughts on my 210 for awhile. I know eventually I'll downsize, but this early in the game I have no plans at all to go smaller anytime soon.

But if you have the money, patience to pack a new main and aren't too concerned about eventually getting your new rig all dirty, go for it! It's your decision.