Harry Potter: HBP (Spoilers thread)

[AggieDave 6]

This thread is for those who have already finished the book.

Firstly, its nice to see Draco act like a pussy. Secondly, do you think that Snape really killed the elder professor? Do you think he did it due to the unbreakable vow and why did he take the vow in the first place?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Feeblemind 1]

You have to wonder that in all the battles if Dumbledore has killed someone in self defense and if he has his own horticrux (spelling). Yes I believe Malfoy is a total pussy and I also believe snape is loyal to the dark lord and did kill dumbledore.

Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked

[AggieDave 6]

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You have to wonder that in all the battles if Dumbledore has killed slomeone in self defense and if he has his own horticrux (spelling).

I haven't wondered, I bet its the Phoenix!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skyyhi 0]

Okay, I believe that Snape really did kill Dumbledore but I also think it was at Dumbledore's pleading. . .not at the prompting of the Dark Lord. . .just my 2 cents. . .

________________________________________
Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ
FGF #6
Darcy

[AggieDave 6]

Ahhhh...a mayrter...good call, possibly.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skinnyshrek 0]

All you Potterheads need to get out more often. There was this women down in skyfest not jumping because she had the potter book. What happened to beer drugs and masterbation. the wife is into the same crap. Keeps screeming out some dude called dumbledore oh well....

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[skyyhi 0]

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Ahhhh...a mayrter...good call, possibly.

I don't really think of it as that. . .more like protecting the order and kind of an Obi Wan Kenobi bit, that in death he will be even stronger than he was in real life. . .ageless perhaps. . .remember it did say that his portrait now hangs beside the others in the Headmaster's office at Hogwarts. . .and you know all those old headmasters provide Dumbledore with more help than I think any of us realize. That is how the headmaster sees and knows all that goes on in the school. . .

________________________________________
Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ
FGF #6
Darcy

[Adrock 0]

Ah, what a good book. I JUST finished it. I'm not sure what the deal is with Snape killing Dumbledore. I've never thought Snape was a good guy, but I know she's writing for us to purposefully doubt that.

Too bad we have years to wait to find out.....

[Clite 0]

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You have to wonder that in all the battles if Dumbledore has killed someone in self defense and if he has his own horticrux (spelling)

I thought you had to murder someone, not just do it in self defense. Am I wrong? I think some one like Dumbledore would have a plan up his sleeve for taking care of Potter. He had to know Potter would be on his own someday.

[missg8tordivr 0]

I thought about skipping this thread because I didn't want to ruin the book....seeing as how I haven't even read the FIRST one I figured it wouldn't matter

....guess my beer, drugs, and masterbation habits keep me from reading

***
F LORIDA!

[skinnyshrek 0]

thats my girl...lol Hey when you next up this way. I thought you were coming to skyfest

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[missg8tordivr 0]

I was in a seminar in Orlando last week for work. It is a shame that I have to keep this job to pay for my habits.

I may be heading up north some time in the beginning of August. I will give you a shout if I do

***
F LORIDA!

[skinnyshrek 0]

hey the orfun boogie is in september be there

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[skysprite 0]

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You have to wonder that in all the battles if Dumbledore has killed someone in self defense and if he has his own horticrux (spelling)

I thought you had to murder someone, not just do it in self defense. Am I wrong? I think some one like Dumbledore would have a plan up his sleeve for taking care of Potter. He had to know Potter would be on his own someday.

Yeah, my understanding is it's a very dark thing, and when you murder you do it for the specific reason of splitting your soul and creating a horcrux; it's very intentional and purposeful.

~skysprite

[TomAiello 25]

Some interesting points here. I'll reproduce them below. I'm not sure I buy all of them, but they do sound pretty plausible.

My money is on Regulus Black to be R.A.B.

Then again, I had called Hagrid to be the half blood prince before this book came out, so what do I know?

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Dumbledore's End, Snape's Betrayal, R.A.B.'s Note, and Mundungus' Thieving

First of all, R.A.B. has to be Regulus Black. This has practical implications for Harry because, when he figures it out, it will help him find the real locket Horcrux.

Where is the locket? On page 116 of OotP (U.S. paperback edition), Sirius and the kids are cleaning out an old cabinet which contains items such as a snuffbox with Wartcap powder, a music box, and a 'heavy locket which none of them could open'. I'd bet that's the locket in question.

Now, one of three things could have happened to the locket, which we assume was thrown into the bin with the other things that had been in the cabinet: either it went out with the rest of the rubbish, or Kreacher nicked it (and Harry will have to go back to Grimmauld Place to retrieve it) or Mundungus stole it and fenced it. I'm willing to bet on this last one; why else would the scene with Mundungus and the stolen Black family silver have been given such prominence in HBP, except to remind us of Mundungus' activities so that it's not a shock when JKR brings it back up in the seventh book?

Aside from the practical implications for getting and destroying the locket, Regulus' note sheds some interesting light on Regulus' death, Dumbledore's death and Snape's 'betrayal'. Why is this?

Regulus states that he knows he will be dead by the time the Dark Lord gets the note. Not because the Dark Lord or anyone else will kill him for stealing the Horcrux (Dumbledore mentions, in his conversation with Harry about Riddle's diary, that Voldemort probably doesn't automatically know when a Horcrux is destroyed); instead, I think Regulus knew that the potion in the cave would most likely kill him when he stole the Dark Lord's locket Horcrux, which changes our conception of his death. Regulus was not, as Sirius said, an idiot who joined up and then got himself killed when he saw what he was asked to do and backed out; instead he found out about some of Voldemort's most precious plans for immortality and made an active attempt to thwart them. He went out in a blaze of self-sacrificial glory.

Now, what does this mean for Dumbledore and Snape? Well, it gives us the knowledge (or at least the hint) that the potion in the cave is probably going to kill the drinker. Dumbledore hints at this too; he implies that, though it won't kill immediately, it will probably leave the drinker alive long enough to cause a lot of pain or perhaps even allow Voldemort to find out who had attempted to steal one of his Horcruxes. The biggest confirmation that the potion is lethal, and that Dumbledore knows or at least suspects it, is that he does not allow Harry to drink it--he all but says that he is expendable and that Harry is not. Also, later, there is the fact that Dumbledore chooses to save Harry (well, save him from himself, really, by Freezing him so he can't do anything rash on the tower) instead of defending himself; defending himself is less important because he knows is going to die anyway.

So Dumbledore knows he is dying during the scenes after retrieving the locket, during the return to Hogsmeade and on top of the tower. Throughout the conversation with Malfoy he grows steadily weaker. Even as he is convincing Malfoy not to kill him, he is already dying (and probably has known he was coming close to death all year anyway, or why would he have taken the trouble to pass his work on the Horcruxes on to Harry?). Dumbledore reasons with Malfoy, not to save his own life but to spare Malfoy having blood and murder on his hands. The fact that Dumbledore is dying anyway would not make Malfoy's act of murder any less despicable, and Dumbledore does not want Malfoy to become a murderer; we get the impression that Malfoy is not naturally evil, anyway, in this scene. He is under extreme coercion.

Things change a bit when the Death Eaters arrive--now there is the new problem of keeping Malfoy alive. Dumbledore knows that, if Malfoy doesn't kill him, Malfoy will probably either be killed on the spot by the Death Eaters or taken to Voldemort, who will kill him.

So, here's my theory: when Snape appears, Dumbledore knows this is the perfect opportunity to accomplish all of his immediate goals--save Malfoy's life and keep him from doing a despicable act, plus allow Snape to fulfill his Unbreakable Vow (which I am sure he knew all about, just as he knew all about Malfoy's plan) and therefore a) not die and b) remain 'in' with the Death Eaters as a spy--and all this simply by doing something he knew he was going to do anyway: die.

However, we are stuck in Harry's POV, so all we see is Dumbledore apparently pleading with Severus for his life, then Snape 'gazing at the professor for a moment' with a 'look of hatred and revulsion' and finally casting the Killing Curse. Later Harry will report this to his friends and members of the Order and it will be seen as a great betrayal (by everyone except Harry, who has 'known' it all along).

But back up a moment: Snape gazes at the Headmaster for a moment. Two accomplished Legilimens do nothing but look at each other for a moment in the midst of a heated battle situation, and we are to assume there is nothing passing between them? Oh, no. I think Dumbledore is asking Snape, via his thoughts, to kill him. Remember that Dumbledore's pain and delirium in the cave have already led him to ask for release by death ('Kill me,' he says to Harry). Now Dumbledore is a bit more rational, but he sees that his own death at Severus' hands can serve a purpose. His pleas are not for his life but for his death.

Snape does it without question or argument, just as he went back to Voldemort at Dumbledore's behest after the Tri-Wizard tournament. Unlike Harry, Snape takes Dumbledore's word as law.

Reinterpreted in light of a request by Dumbledore, Snape's look of 'hatred and revulsion' takes on a new meaning. This is not hatred and revulsion for Dumbledore personally (or what Dumbledore stands for) so much as hatred and revulsion for being asked to do this to Dumbledore, for being asked to add murder to all of the other things he has done. This may explain also Snape's extreme reaction, later, to being called a coward; he has just been asked to kill the man in whom he placed his trust--the man who has protected him for fifteen years, and for whom he has done dangerous things, including spying and now committing murder in order to keep a student safe and uncorrupted by evil--and has complied with the request. Of course being called a coward after all this, and by Potter, would rankle.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 25]

Do you think Draco will end up "reformed" by the end of the next book?

Honestly, I'm wondering if JK Rowling hasn't decided to teach the lesson that sometimes people just do bad things. Hence Snape, and therefore Draco will really end up as a "real" bad guy--not just a poor victim forced to act evil to save his family.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[AggieDave 6]

Those all do sound plausable...interesting take on things. This is all very exciting, I'm pissed I have to wait for the next book now. Just as I was pissed off after the last book, and the book before...anyways.

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Hence Snape, and therefore Draco will really end up as a "real" bad guy--not just a poor victim forced to act evil to save his family.

I can see that. It would also prove a point, that choices, bad choices, can haut you even at a young age. Hell, a guy that is in my martial arts classes was turned down as a reserve police officer (works for free when they need him) due to his drug use 20 years earlier. Choices made early in life sometimes due follow, even if you change for the better.

All in all it could be much much simpiler then that, we could be "reading" too much into the story. (pun intended).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skysprite 0]

The theories and speculation that comes out after each book is always fun! I love reading peoples different takes on things! Those do sound possible for sure. We'll just have to wait () and see!

~skysprite

[tigra 0]

I don't think Draco will be reformed, but like many of the so called death eaters, he is weak and spineless. He'll never be good, nor will he ever be pure evil. He is simply too weak to be either.

I re-read the whole death and chase scene last night. Snape went out of his way NOT to harm Harry as he pursued them. He easily deflected all of Harry's hexes and was actually almost coaching him. He also stopped Draco's Crucio hex. He SAID it was because Harry was for the "Dark Lord" but in truth, Voldemort would be happy to be rid of Harry no matter who did it. He was protecting Harry AND he was protecting Draco from becoming a murderer.

I also think Snape was in love with Lily Potter and that is why he is now loyal to Dumbeldore. He hated James but loved Lily. Since he was pretty much directly responsible for her death, he was/ is devastated with guilt. That also explains his conflicting feelings about Harry- he's sworn to protect him. At the same time, when he looks at him, he's reminded of the man he hated and the woman he loved and the the fact the he caused both their deaths. (And does he hate Harry just a little bit because the woman he loved died protecting him?) Is he trying to make Harry tough enough for what he has to face?

Good points about Mundungus. That really is the only possible reason to bring him back into the story.

And while a Horcrux can only be created by an act of murder, isn't there another way a powerful wizard like Dumbledore could preserve a part of his soul as he's dying? I'm thinking the dummy locket which Harry is now carrying around as his talisman.

[AggieDave 6]

Good points! Once Morgan is finished with the book I'm going to have to go back and reread the last 1/4 of the book or so to look for clues...hell, I might just have to reread the last 2 books to get my mind into it.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skyyhi 0]

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Good points! Once Morgan is finished with the book I'm going to have to go back and reread the last 1/4 of the book or so to look for clues...hell, I might just have to reread the last 2 books to get my mind into it.

I'm rereading them all just to pick up the finer details. . .

I am really going to hate when she finishes writing about Harry. . .

________________________________________
Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ
FGF #6
Darcy

[Rebecca 0]

So is she... It's been such a nice adventure so far.

I'm re-reading Goblet & OotP now that I've finished HBP, precisely to go back and read with a more critical eye.

I really think Snape will prove himself. I love the idea that he was in love with Lily. Makes extra sense considering they were both very talented in Potions too. Didn't she take up for him once when James was picking on him too? Sounds like an easy-to-love person...

you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk?

[tigra 0]

Well, the part about Snape being in love with Lily sort of just came to me, but it fits. Weren't both Lily and Snape in Slughorn's special "club" while they were in school?

[airdweller 0]

Good points! Once Morgan is finished with the book I'm going to have to go back and reread the last 1/4 of the book or so to look for clues...hell, I might just have to reread the last 2 books to get my mind into it.

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Nearly 27,000 posts, and contemplating re-reading children's books. Man you got way too much free time on your hands.

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"From the mightiest pharaoh to the lowliest peasant,
who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" C. Montgomery Burns

[dixieskydiver 0]

I think you're dead on with the Snape & Lily theory, that's the first time I've heard that. That makes a lot of things clickety click in my head.

Dixie
HISPA #56 Facil Rodriguez
"Scientific research has shown that 60% of the time, it works every time."