Students do the craziest things

[skron 0]

The students at our DZ do all of AFF with a rip cord. After they graduate and have demonstrated they have the basics down, they go on at least one jump with a AFF instructor where they do practice BOC throws. The instructor makes a fake pilot chute handle to throw. After they have demonstrated that they can switch over safely, they do their first jump on an actual throw out. As a student it seems like a pain and pointless, but looking back it seems to have been an effective method.

Well behaved women don't often make history.

[Scrumpot 1]

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Our DZ has SOS + dummy cutaway handle and were taught sports EP's from jump 1.

Good system IMO.

So you're saying that in a "slow" malfunction scenario, but one where a cutaway by the student is clearly required, that when (if) they pull the "dummy" cut-away handle nothing happens?

I can see some minus' to that system as well.

No system is "perfect". Each has its plus' and minus'. Think about it.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[CyniQ 0]

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The students at our DZ do all of AFF with a rip cord. After they graduate and have demonstrated they have the basics down, they go on at least one jump with a AFF instructor where they do practice BOC throws. The instructor makes a fake pilot chute handle to throw. After they have demonstrated that they can switch over safely, they do their first jump on an actual throw out. As a student it seems like a pain and pointless, but looking back it seems to have been an effective method.

I certainly don't mean to imply that I'm qualified to offer advice on the subject of training students. But as someone who just completed my AFF's, and having jumped only 8 times TOTAL, all of those within the last two months... I think I have a solid student perspective.

I was taught from jump one with a BOC throw-out PC. I did practice throws, etc. on my first jump with 2 JM's... it's not that hard to grab the little hacky-sack thingy and throw it.

Tout est pour le mieux dans le meilleur des mondes possibles.

[Baksteen 84]

You'd think that.

I started on ripcord (after static line) and despite the fact that I got an extensive briefing with lots of practice thows on a creeper, I almost held on to the hackey. Prior to this, when i had my pre-second reserve ride I found that I unconsciously held on to the cutaway, which cost me some valuable seconds while struggling with the cables..
(Students at my DZ are taught to chuck their release handle when performing EPs.)

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[popsjumper 2]

Says a lot about how well you took to your initial training.
In the big scheme of things that's a good thing.

Looking at it in detail, it sometimes is hard, especially in times of stress, to perform new procedures after having been drilled so heavily on the intital ones. This is especially true for young jumpers being trained one way and then shortly after having to re-train different procedures. Even older, more experienced jumpers sometimes have problems switching to new methods and systems.

The key? Drill, drill, drill new procedures...much more often and many more times than your initial training. And even THAT is no guarantee.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Faicon9493 114]

Amazing! When I took (and passed) the AFF I certification course many years ago, I remember how tough I thought the evaluators were. The fact is that AFF evaluators will never throw something at you as tough as what a real student can do. The instructor in the video was really heads up prevented a serious injury (or worse). Any aspiring AFF I should take note.

[Chubba 0]

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So you're saying that in a "slow" malfunction scenario, but one where a cutaway by the student is clearly required, that when (if) they pull the "dummy" cut-away handle nothing happens?

I can see some minus' to that system as well.

No system is "perfect". Each has its plus' and minus'. Think about it.

I read about dual SOS systems on here at some point, it sounded like a really good system. What are the disadvantages of a dual SOS system compared to the single SOS system (no dummy)? I'm trying to think of one, but I'm coming up blank.

[hackish 8]

I think a dual SOS system would be too complicated to rig up. When you add more complexity to a system then you increase the chance of its failure.

I did my first jump on SOS then switched to TAS. I think TAS with an RSL or MARD is probably the best for a student. They won't need to retrain for a sport rig and there is a significant chance of complete operation when the cutaway is pulled. I think leaving it uncomplicated to say you must look, grab pull this one, look grab pull that one and get them to practice it 50 times.

On my FJC we practiced a mockup exit about 50 times. Literally spent an hour doing them it got to the point where it was feeling stupid but it really did help. If the student practices their EPs to that point then I believe they should be easier to execute properly and in order under stress. There is also a lot of research out there that agrees.

'Course who knows I'm not an instructor yet...

-Michael

[hookitt 0]

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Everyone is quick to blame the student which is somewhat well placed, but I myself wonder how much real good dirt diving and training the student had. But not knowing the student, the instructors, or the full story I guess it would be best to withold judgement....

I'm definitely late to this thread. I've no doubt she demonstrated that she had the knowledge and correct actions to perform a safe skydive.

My student on Saturday demonstrated to me that he had the correct actions and knowledge as well. It didn't go so smooth. You simply don't now what a student will do until they do it.

Mako did a good job. This video is a reminder not to leave too quickly if you're on main side.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Scrumpot 1]

Here's my take on your question:

Whenever you are training students with a method or gear that is going to vary from the actual gear they are going to soon enough in practice, have to actually use - it introduces some potential minuses. I think you compound those minuses too, when it involves EP's.

It used to be, back in the day (not too long ago actually), students would start on 100% ripcord. Some systems mocked a BOC with the ripcord, others with a handle on the hip, or lower MLW. That caused some interesting "transitions" that I've even personally witnessed, even in of itself. And that would be for folks going for "routine", "normal" main deployments. Now add in the added stress of EP's, and IMHO - that is something you just don't want to mess with. JMO.

With the variants of potential SOS systems out there, it is just plain simply adding that VARIANT transition in of itself is all, that can open up the same "confusion" possibilities, once that student transitions over to a true 2-handle system that no doubt, with their own gear upon purchase, going to need to use.

Further, I've seen students do some really "curious" things, - for lack of better word. That's what this thread is all about! What I was replying to, as I understand it was being described, is an SOS system whereby what would be the cut-away pillow is actually a "dummy". IOW, when that handle/pillow is pulled, it does NOTHING. Then, the Reserve handle (d-ring?) acts as an SOS. Am I understanding the description correctly? I just think that is a bad training methodology. Here's why:

Ever see or hear of a student or low-timer rely on their RSL? I know, just like a Cypres, they are trained (oblviously) NOT to "rely" on it. But it happens. So in this above SOS description case - you are telling the student that they have a "dummy handle", so that they practice their EP's such that they will mimic the gear they will use later on, but it is an SOS activated by the reserve handle. Sounds good, right? What could go wrong? All depends ON YOUR STUDENT, and how their brain works and what they heard. In an actual EP, in their brain, are they gonna remember that the cut-away handle is a "dummy" and think (smartly in their mind) that they are better off (and correct even) in pulling JUST THE SILVER? I'll bet some would. And this would work out just fine for them in this situation. But it is BAD training and sets them up for a very bad outcome should that action become ingrained in their mind on their future gear! Then another (possibly worse) scenario. Because you are doing training that only MIMICS what their later "real" gear would do - and you are trying to be consistent with EP's handle pull order and expectations (all sounds good, so far) - in an actual EP during that student progression, on that student gear - the student pulls the cut-away AND NOTHING HAPPENS... Did they "expect" to now be cut-away? Will they "freeze" because of this? - Think about it. I know you will argue "no they won't" because we are training them to pull BOTH handles... but just like with the RSL reaction (which I've seen) - Will they? Probably? Maybe? Maybe not. I dunno. It's a VARIABLE, and see - it at least introduces, IMHO a potential negative, that I think needs to be considered is all.

Sorry for the long post, but hopefully as a result this made SOME sense, and helped you to think of the variables, and the possibilities, with ANY system. None of them are a "magic bullet", which I think one of the OP's in here was trying to state - that by having this system "it is the best", and it "cures all". Which again, IMHO it does not.

Whew. ...Am I done typing yet?

Anyway, again - I hope the added perspective is of some actual help.

Blue Skies!
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[Nutz 0]

As I understand an SOS system, there are two cables going to each riser. The loop is loose on both ends, both ends have cables running through them. Pulling either handle will cut away, there are "extra" cutaway cables hooked to the reserve handle in case the student panics and goes for silver after deploying their main. I haven't read the rest of this thread in a while so.....

"Don't! Get! Eliminated!"

[Scrumpot 1]

What was described in the post I was originally replying to, where I was asked to expand on my thoughts, and why I thought what I did - - - the cutaway pillow was described as a "dummy".

FWIW:

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Our DZ has SOS + dummy cutaway handle...

If I misinterpret what this means, then sorry. My comments are based on scenarios of where I find anyway in particular, potential minus'es may be in any such a designed system, as specifically described anyway (as I took it) from the quote above.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[peek 20]

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I read about dual SOS systems on here at some point, it sounded like a really good system. What are the disadvantages of a dual SOS system compared to the single SOS system (no dummy)? I'm trying to think of one, but I'm coming up blank.

"Dual SOS". Interesting name. If you are referring to the system that has two handles and the reserve handle will also cutaway, then that makes 3 names I have heard used. I call that system the "universal", but someone came up with another name too. I tried searching and cannot find the thread.

The only disadvantage to that system that I can think of is initial purchase price and the fact that the main risers are special. If you purchase student rigs with it already installed it would eliminate one of those.

As far as training students and the operation of the system, I can't think of any disadvantages.

It would of course be subject to the same maintenance issue as SOS, in that the cutaway cables had better be lubricated/clean, or pulling the reserve would be harder than if it had only one steel cable inside one cable housing.

[MomDaBomb 0]

My instructors never told me about the cut away pillow being a dummy. I read about it on here from another student that jumps at the same dz. I didn't bother asking my instructors about it because I figured if it was something I should be aware of they would have told me. If it is true that I have been using a system like that, I'm glad they didn't tell me. I think it might have messed with my head a little.

[shropshire 0]

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My instructors never told me about the cut away pillow being a dummy. I read about it on here from another student that jumps at the same dz. I didn't bother asking my instructors about it because I figured if it was something I should be aware of they would have told me. If it is true that I have been using a system like that, I'm glad they didn't tell me. I think it might have messed with my head a little.

Never, NEVER hold back from asking any question, for fear of looking dumb.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[popsjumper 2]

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Never, NEVER hold back from asking any question, for fear of looking dumb.

+10!

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239