Do the ends justify the means?

[RevJim 0]

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For almost every rule, there's an exception,eh?

That's the cool thing about humans. We can always find justification, unless you happen to be on the wrong end of the stick.

The hurricanes hitting N.O. this year were a perfect example. I lost count how many times I heard " Well, I WAS built below sea level!" or "It was their choice to build at sea level in a hurricane zone!" or "The French Quarter was filthy, unsanitary, and unethical. It didn't need to be there anyway."

Some justification to those that lived there, huh?

It's your life, live it!
Karma
RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1

[popsjumper 2]

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...
Missed this line, huh?

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nobody dies, everybody wins. Except the guy on the wrong end of a car battery....

yep...carry on...

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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.
The hurricanes hitting N.O. this year were a perfect example. I lost count how many times I heard " Well, I WAS built below sea level!" or "It was their choice to build at sea level in a hurricane zone!" or "The French Quarter was filthy, unsanitary, and unethical. It didn't need to be there anyway."

Some justification to those that lived there, huh?

Ooooo...you hit a sore point...buttheads (not you), that's not justification, that's denial.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Okay, let not get hung up on semantics, its all just fun so far.

What I'm kinda driving at is the premise that nearly all our standards are negotiable, their application is largely situation dependant.

There are things I'm prepared to do for money/protect my family/uphold my moral standards.

What those things are is largely dependent on the situation and the perceived outcome of action/inaction on my behalf. A moral cost benefit if you like.

We don't live in a 'one size fits all' world, I therefore describe my morals/standards as negotiable.

Under certain (lets face it, extreme) circumstances the end does indeed justify the means, but not always...

Are you with me?

Does it make me a bad person?

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[RevJim 0]

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Are you with me?

Yep!

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Does it make me a bad person?

Not at all, IMO.

I'm the same way, with my family. I'm just trying to see it through other's eyes too. We live in a moralistic society. In other societies the ends probably DO justify the means.

Personally, I'm happy with the morals.

To every situation that you could possibly dream up with apparent justification, you will find someone to call it unjust. In the mirror image of that, no matter how unjust and/or revolting you may find a situation, you will find someone that believes it to be just fine.

Ain't the human race grand?

It's your life, live it!
Karma
RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1

[nacmacfeegle 0]

If only we had the grace to see ourselves as others see us, Jim....If only.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[RevJim 0]

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If only we had the grace to see ourselves as others see us, Jim....If only.

OK, where's that clapping hands emoticon?

It's your life, live it!
Karma
RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1

[kbordson 8]

Ends justifing the means....

Young man, 30 something.... betrayed by friends, imprisoned, beaten and murdered.

Ends - salvation.

Do you feel that ends justifies the means? If so, then where is the limit.

Karen

[RevJim 0]

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Ends justifing the means....

Young man, 30 something.... betrayed by friends, imprisoned, beaten and murdered.

Ends - salvation.

Do you feel that ends justifies the means? If so, then where is the limit.

Karen

Though salvation is an end that (IMO) most will receive, it is never to be considered justification for arriving at that point. (Again, IMO)

It's your life, live it!
Karma
RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1

[kbordson 8]

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Ends justifing the means....
Young man, 30 something.... betrayed by friends, imprisoned, beaten and murdered. Ends - salvation.
Do you feel that ends justifies the means? If so, then where is the limit.
Karen

Though salvation is an end that (IMO) most will receive, it is never to be considered justification for arriving at that point. (Again, IMO)

But the above scenario describes Jesus on the cross.... so then God must have felt that the ends justified the means.....

[RevJim 0]

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Ends justifing the means....
Young man, 30 something.... betrayed by friends, imprisoned, beaten and murdered. Ends - salvation.
Do you feel that ends justifies the means? If so, then where is the limit.
Karen

Though salvation is an end that (IMO) most will receive, it is never to be considered justification for arriving at that point. (Again, IMO)

But the above scenario describes Jesus on the cross.... so then God must have felt that the ends justified the means.....

Lack of divine intervention=justification?

Not in my book.

It's your life, live it!
Karma
RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1

[Erroll 49]

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But the above scenario describes Jesus on the cross.... so then God must have felt that the ends justified the means.....

Great minds and all that.

[speedy 0]

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???

Opinions, please, in general.

What are your thoughts?

For me, if you must point to the end result to make getting there tolerable.... bad juju.

Probaly on Thursdays and Fridays Yes. Saturdays only if the cream is supplied free of charge.

But heck, these are only my thoughts.....

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[udder 0]

for the whole world to be free from disease, hunger pain and anything bad, one little girl roughly 6 years of age has to be locked in a cage until she is starved to death. One at a time given nothing but water they all live for a month or so. Now would you be cool with one person a month suffering and dying to rid the rest of the world from sufffering?

"In one way or the other, I'm a bad brother. Word to the motherf**ker." Eazy-E

[Dumpster 0]

Ok - So far I think this has been covered in context of war and criminal scenarios. Let's take Machiavelli into some different situations -

The workplace - An ambitious business-school graduate with his eye on the prize - He's not afraid to gouge out eyes etc., to get the next promotion.

In sales - Lie, cheat, bend the hell out of the facts etc. just to close the sale and collect the comission check. Who cares if the car you just sold is a major lemon? You cleared $500.00 on the sale, it's a good day, and you've got alimony to pay.

Same for securities - Churn the hell out those fat accounts, get 'em to sign over all the cash value in thier life insurance for some crappy variable product - and rake in the cash - Hopefully the SEC and the NASD never catches up to you. By the time they realize thay have nothing left you'll be long gone anyways. Go get some lap dances.

College frat boys - The End - Getting Laid - The Means - Lace the hot chicks' drink with a Roofie. You'll be a hero to all your brothers, and a role model to the pledges. Ain't you cool?

Now - There are other, more moral and ethical means of getting to the same end result. So why do we choose the "evil" route?

[SpeedRacer 1]

Those same ends (sales, getting laid, getting ahead in business) could all be achieved using ethical means, however. Morally, what's the point of resorting to unethical means, when there are so many possibilities to use ethical means?

so no, it would not be justified.

Speed Racer
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[lawrocket 3]

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Just one example of the means being justified. It's all I ask.

Okay, rev. Here's a spin on it. Killing kittens. Now, those poor kittens probably didn't do anything to deserve their fate. On the other hand, there is some necessity in their death, i.e., "Man, if I don't get this out of me I'm gonna explode." You may even hurt somebody.

So, in matters of "taking one-eye to the optometrist," the means actually justify the end. It's "hard" to find a justification for killing kittens (the ends), but rather easy to justify the means of their massacre. Indeed, in terms of the relative evils, the few thousand kittens you've killed, good Reverend, are probably a better thing than what would have happened if even one of those kittens had lived.

So, is it agreed that the means justified the end on this? For most agree that nothing is better than sex. Most also agree that masturbation is better than nothing. Therefore, masturbation is better than sex, even with the feline holocaust.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[udder 0]

what if you went to an all boys school and kill kittens 3 times a day. minimum.?

"In one way or the other, I'm a bad brother. Word to the motherf**ker." Eazy-E

[RevJim 0]

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Just one example of the means being justified. It's all I ask.

Okay, rev. Here's a spin on it. Killing kittens. Now, those poor kittens probably didn't do anything to deserve their fate. On the other hand, there is some necessity in their death, i.e., "Man, if I don't get this out of me I'm gonna explode." You may even hurt somebody.

So, in matters of "taking one-eye to the optometrist," the means actually justify the end. It's "hard" to find a justification for killing kittens (the ends), but rather easy to justify the means of their massacre. Indeed, in terms of the relative evils, the few thousand kittens you've killed, good Reverend, are probably a better thing than what would have happened if even one of those kittens had lived.

So, is it agreed that the means justified the end on this? For most agree that nothing is better than sex. Most also agree that masturbation is better than nothing. Therefore, masturbation is better than sex, even with the feline holocaust.

There! Finally! One that really is justified! I can go to bed peacefully now (after visiting www.thehun.net of course...)

It's your life, live it!
Karma
RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1

[Dumpster 0]

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Morally, what's the point of resorting to unethical means, when there are so many possibilities to use ethical means?

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so no, it would not be justified.

Not from our perspective, anyway. However:

Look at it from the salesmans' point of view for example. - No sale - No comission - No paycheck - Alimony does not get paid - Ex-wife has him in court. No food, no rent, he's out on the street. Not only that, but he's got some asshole manager riding him like a pack mule to SELL SELL SELL! CLOSE CLOSE CLOSE!! So either he's a producer, or he's unemployed.

I'm sure the frat boy feels overwhelming pressure in some way that justifies his behaviour, as does the ambitious entry-level exec.

[airtwardo 6]

Exactly...which is why

The end ALWAYS justifies the means.

We as Human 'Beans'...have been cursed with a conscience, therefore we have to find a way to live with our self, within our self...

Whether the means are justified before or after the end...
they will 'somehow' be justified in our own mind.

We do this because we kid ourselves into believing that all people and situations are unique, someone else can't truly know 'all' the reasons behind a certain action...

'since you don't know what I'm dealing with, you can't judge me on my actions'
(my means to an end)

It's for the most part bullshit, but it does let us sleep at night.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Dumpster 0]

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'since you don't know what I'm dealing with, you can't judge me on my actions'
(my means to an end)

It's for the most part bullshit, but it does let us sleep at night.

You got it right!

[wmw999 2,150]

Depends on the ends, and depends on the means.

I'm not much of a planner, so I don't always have a well-defined end. To me, that means that I have to be comfortable with the means, because they are partly how I'm determining what my end really will be.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)