Hi alt. O2 equip

[garbageman 0]

Ive been looking for the hard parts for a proper OX sys., does anyone have the equipment and willing to sell it,or know where to get it.The Mfgr's will not sell to the public,I plan on using it for 20k+ wing suit jumps,does anyone have wing suit OX sys exp.I cant mount it traditonally.I ve got the helmet and mask(hgu68/mbu12 standard three pin) need the reg,adapter,bottles and hose,the are at least two gentex compatible systems that I am aware of.Any help will be greatlt appreciated.

[billvon 2,400]

>Mfgr's will not sell to the public,I plan on using it for 20k+ wing suit jumps . . .

For 20K wingsuit jumps you should not need 100% O2 systems. World Team jumps regularly from 26,000 feet with no bailout O2 at all. Wingsuits take longer to descend - but even so, you shouldn't need anything more than supplemental bailout O2. 2lpm works well for RW; 4lpm should suffice for even the most strenuous sorts of wingsuit flight.

You might try a pulse oximeter at some point to see what your actual O2 sats are. Keeping it above 80% is important - but it takes remarkably little O2 to do that at 20 to 26K.

Some systems:

The Co-Pilot is a tiny disposable cylinder O2 system that fits in a jumpsuit pocket or on a helmet. 2lpm max.

http://www.mojosgear.com/html/csafety98.htm

The E-Ox system uses refillable cylinders, a higher quality regulator, and will go to 4lpm. You probably want an external mount for this one.

http://www.aeromedix.com/product-exec/parent_id/2/category_id/3/product_id/1106/nm/E_Ox_System_36_

[aeromobile 0]

Kevin at www.halojumper.com was selling surplus military gear. Try the above link eventhough it appears outdated. If you can't get in touch with him, I'll try to find a good number.

David

[GQ_jumper 4]

For 20K wingsuit jumps you should not need 100% O2 systems. World Team jumps regularly from 26,000 feet with no bailout O2 at all. Wingsuits take longer to descend - but even so, you shouldn't need anything more than supplemental bailout O2

Quote

Bill, I agree with you 100% that it can be done without O2 for the trip down, but personally I'd always reccomend someone having too much than not enough. There's always the chance that someoen is out of shape, or just panics a bit. With the military its 30 minutes of pre-breathing for 18k and an extra minute for every extra 1k feet. It can easily be seen as a bit excessive but at the same time, who knows safety better than the military? I'd say too much is never enough, but that's just the JM in me talkin

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[garbageman 0]

Did you hear all the stink that went down over the you-tube vid?A whole lot of griping about proper Ox.gear.Ive been after this for a year and a half,and plan on 30k eventually but before i get there I need to know that my gear is safe and has the bugs worked out.Its only excesive if it keeps me alive every single time without fail.Its not excessive the first time I didnt relize that I needed it.I will be doing a chamber ride next month,and am greatful for the in-put. Scott

[vpozzoli 0]

Take a look at these http://www.mhoxygen.com/index.phtml?nav_id=28&product_id=1.
It looks like the smallest available cylinder might be compact enough for a WS jump. Might be a viable alternative to a gentex system.
Cheers,

Vale

[garbageman 0]

The mail I sent was returned,as undeliverable,if you have a contact # for Kevin I would be greatfull. Thanks, Scott

[Broke 0]

Eh ghads a D sized cylinder. You should be able to get a Carbon Fiber C sized cylinder. If they want to give you a gripe about it you can talk to your doctor and get a script for it.

http://www.savelives.com

Check these guys out. Call JT and ask him if they can get you one. the Aluminum C sized cylinder is a bit heavier, but a lot cheaper.

http://www.savelives.com/products/cat/4/sub/1/Oxygen-Cylinders

They might even be able to hook you up with smaller sized cylinders if you don't mind waiting a week or two. these guys have fast shipping too. You'll also need a regulator, and Nasal Cannula

Divot your source for all things Hillbilly.
Anvil Brother 84
SCR 14192

[garbageman 0]

Thanks for the info,The helmet and mask I have are made for freefall use,I may need to have an adapter made to convert from an aftermarket supply to my gentex equip.I will further investigate that approach when the adapter makes it to my premise.

[billvon 2,400]

> but personally I'd always reccomend someone having too much than not enough.

I agree - but given that fairly strenuous jumps from 25-26K are doable without bailout O2 (as we saw over the course of about 4000 jumps) I might consider that 4lpm supplemental from 26K was overkill - at least for sport jumpers.

> It can easily be seen as a bit excessive but at the same time, who
>knows safety better than the military?

Well, I'd also suggest that if there are two ways to do it - the safe way and the over-the-top excessively safe way - the military will choose the over the top way, since they don't have the cost/size/weight constraints that sport jumpers have. My one 30K jump with bailout O2 used a fairly standard military O2 system, and it was configured to give significant overpressure once on bailout O2 - which is way beyond overkill for such a jump. The system was adapted by Superior to vent the overpressure so it was easier to breathe.

There's an ideal level of O2 at any given altitude, and good military systems (i.e. the newer Para-flite PHAOS system) use diluter-demand systems to automatically meter the O2 and adjust delivery based on altitude. Such systems might be a better choice than a standard HALO overpressure system. They will tend to be lighter and require smaller tanks for a given jump profile.

[garbageman 0]

Bill, Ive contacted Carltech(mfgr of the phaos) They will not sell to me as I am not a military representative,however they will sell to my aquaintence..........for $7000.00 Yes SEVEN THOUSAND U.S. Dollars. Talk about rediculous.If you have a contact that you can share,man I'd love to have it,cause Im going to need it.Heres some more of whats not being said...I will spend approx 2 1/2 times the normal freefall time in flight,Hypoxia is a real big deal,I climb mountains also,and brown-out when Im working real hard at alt. Im in good shape but lost part of one of my lungs in the Military years ago,my quest for redundancy,quality,and suitability of product is for a good reason.If I dont need it now at 20k,I will later @ 30k,and before I strap on an untried system I need to work out the kinks,I may decide not to go forward to 30k(next year).
Iam usuing 20-25k as a starting point because the boogeys usually offer it,and because It will give me enough feed back to plan for more Alt later. Please let me know if there is somewhere I can contact for parts..Thanks Scott

[xlh883 0]

I don't have the answers you are looking for but a suggestion. There are aerobatic pilots that have oxygen systems in their aircraft that utilize at least the helmet and mask portions. You may want to contact someone flying that type of aircraft and see how they adapted to civilian O2 bottles.

Also, I believe that certain types of hi-speed racing boats have requirements for oxygen/air systems for the operator to use.

Anyway, just a thought or two to help you.

Please post what you find out for others in the future to use.

David

[billvon 2,400]

>for $7000.00 Yes SEVEN THOUSAND U.S. Dollars.

Yeah, that's about what such equipment costs.

>If you have a contact that you can share,man I'd love to have it,

I've looked around quite a bit, and have discovered that the only way to get gear like this is to find it at a surplus place or have a friend in the business. About ten years ago I got my hands on a Gentex MBU-series mask with helmet for free, because a friend of mine worked as a Navy rigger and they were going to surplus them. That wouldn't be very difficult to adapt to a SCUBA regulator (for demand O2) or a simple venturi injector (for a diluter system.)

I'd recommend digging around surplus places to see if you can't find something like this. You'll almost certainly have to do a bit of adapting; it is unlikely you'll find a complete system w/tanks that has a current hydrotest and can be legally refilled. Using a modern (civilian) cylinder and a commercial regulator adapted to a military mask/helmet might be a good bet.

[LouDiamond 1]

Let me just throw a word of caution out here. The demand systems found on a SCUBA regulator and the demand regulators on O2 masks designed for HALO are not exactly identical or interchangeable necessarily. I would not recommend this modification.

I have been working with and testing the prototypePHANTOM oxygen mask for several months. If there is one thing I can tell you, adapting or modifing an existing system to accept a different configuration is not as straight forward as one would think. However, if I were doing this, using the MBU12, I would look at the commercially available O2 cylinders/regulators and find one with a similar flow rate and capacity as the the twin 53s. I would then look for a surplus hose and airox VIII assembly. The potentially tricky part would be in finding the fittings that would allow one to attach the hose/airox VIII assembly to the commercial O2 cylinder. I would pay particular attention to the cylinder and the pressure reducer assembly on the bottle(s) and their design specifications.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[LouDiamond 1]

Thinking about your situation, I have 2 possible solutions for you.

1) Since your initial jumps are in the 20-25k foot range, the simple way to approach this would be to use a civilian aviation set up with the full face O2 mask that would remain on board the aircraft(like Mullins set up). If you really want to check all the blocks, prebreath 100% O2 for 30 mins on the ground(maintaining a seal the whole time)and then start the climb to altitude. Once at altitude and ready to jump remove the mask and jump. Your TUC(time of useful consciousness) and working times far exceed the time you will spend in freefall between 25k and 15k. 17-15K is where you will really begin to feel the suit start to fly the way you are already used to.Once you are in the 15k and lower range your rate of decent is fast enough that hypoxia isn't an issue. For reference, I have done a 23k wingsuit jump with a freefall time of 4 minutes. The majority of that time was accumulated from 15k and lower where you have an approximate working time of 30 minutes.

2) If you plan on going to 30k, you will need the full on Military O2 console to breath off of 30 mins before and while climbing to altitude and the bail out bottle system, so that you can switch over to the bottles seamlessly when it comes time to jump. I know of no other way to do this with any civilian system without spending big dollars to actually manufacturer something. If you wish to do this I suggest you hook up with the guys from HALO jumper who already have all of this gear. The only thing you would have to invest in would be the sewing of the pouch to hold the bail out bottles to the left side of your container or where ever you decide to put them.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Broke 0]

Perhaps a demand valve resucitator would work

Divot your source for all things Hillbilly.
Anvil Brother 84
SCR 14192

[MikeForsythe 0]

There seems to be a lot of experts here but you would be best served by the advice given by Scott (LouDiamond). Any other solution leaves you at a greater risk. For example, if you were to have a premature deployment out the door at 25K with no O2 you would exceed your useful consciousness time limit. Scott's solution builds in a safety factor that addresses emergency situations that can occur.

Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is!

[garbageman 0]

Mike, I full on am working in the direction of 30k.Also Iam well aware of the shrinking time of useful consciousness.Here are the parts Ive got,mbu-12,mbu-5,hgu-68,cru-60p is on the way. The airox series of connector/adapters,have been to this point impossible to locate.The cru is the manifold that facilitates the connection with an ox console,below the cru,(tank direction)I can use anyything that replicates the flow-pressure dynamic that will best work with the gentex valve.Ive been told the you have built a smaller lighter system....any suggestions? A toggle operated reg would be the optimum reg opening devise.Ive had to buy(cheap) the mbu-5 for the connector,and it is good spare parts,however,I really dont like the soft hose its just too easy to get pinched off.A hard hose sys. like the phantom would be great but it has proven to be inaccessible.

[garbageman 0]

Scott, Heres the lay out- I can do 20k without ox,That alt. isnt a big deal,the 20-25k range is about the limit for a safe testing range.I gotta do the testing before I put an unproven system into use at 30k,there are no two ways about that portion of this.The system also will have to integrate with a console as previously stated. So what lays directly ahead of me in the near term,is still parts locating,whats just over the horizon is trial at a high enough(low enough)25k to provide useful feedback. Also Ive got my own dynamics to work around,and possibly might find something else to deal with.
I brown out at alt.when carrying a load,tunnel vision,bright floating occular migrations,....etc,but so no loss of consciousness.Iam building in to this, test and evaluation redundancies to be dead sure the gear wont fail later when it is absolutley needed.....This of course is a lot to explain when trying to locate parts,before a full system is had.What is your opinion of the phantom?What can you tell me about its presure managment sys.? Thnx SFGould

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

I brown out at alt.when carrying a load,tunnel vision,bright floating occular migrations,....etc

That statement alone raises redflags in my mind. If you have something going on health wise that is the cause of this then I HIGHLY recommend you stick with a tried and proven military system.

Unless you have a chamber where you can take your own pieced together or manufactured O2 system to altitude to test it out, you will be rolling the dice by assuming it will work at 30k by how it works at 10-12k or 20-25k. From personal experience, I have seen bottle consumption rates and equipment performance drastically change at different altitudes and the only way were able to determine that was through actual use and/or chamber testing it exhaustively.

My personal observations on the Phantom is that it is an excellent piece of equipment, a big improvement from the mbu12, especially at very high altitudes, but testing is not done on it yet. The Spec sheet on the web page can best answer your questions on pressures.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[billvon 2,400]

>Any other solution leaves you at a greater risk.

True - however - jumping a rig other than a military rig (designed to take the higher loads of rucksacks, higher altitude deployments etc) leaves you at greater risk as well. Compare the construction of an MT1XS harness to a Javelin, and you'll note less reinforcing, doubling etc on the Javelin.

Now, that's not to say it's unsafe, because we generally think a Javelin is strong _enough_ for sport usage, even if it would have trouble with opening at 30,000 feet with a 120lb sack attached.

Similarly, military O2 systems are designed for military, not sport, missions. Jumper expectations, physical effort levels, O2 demand, price points, maintenance, acceptable levels of risk, required operator involvement, risk of entanglement etc are all different in sport vs military jumping.

There has been very little work done on sport bailout systems because generally they're just plain not needed. We go to 26,000 feet without any bailout system at all and do OK. That's not to say that's a good idea, but it does indicate it can be done. We use in-airplane oxygen systems that consist of PVC piping, commercial regulators and hoses stuck in people's helmets. And again, despite the potential problems with these systems, generally they work OK.

People using bailout systems for sport skydiving are in many ways charting new territory. Based on my experience with these systems, I have a feeling that the right system is somewhere between a military HALO overpressure system and one of those tiny CoPilot systems. But to find that system will take some research and testing, most of which has not yet been done.

[Broke 0]

If you find a regulator with a DISS port you should be able to set up any demand valve / positive pressure ventilation system to it.

If you are only going to use it for supplimental O2 then you wouldn't need that.

As far as type of tubing if you want steel braided check out some paintball websites

Divot your source for all things Hillbilly.
Anvil Brother 84
SCR 14192

[MikeForsythe 0]

Quote

True - however - jumping a rig other than a military rig (designed to take the higher loads of rucksacks, higher altitude deployments etc) leaves you at greater risk as well. Compare the construction of an MT1XS harness to a Javelin, and you'll note less reinforcing, doubling etc on the Javelin.

Except that what you are proposing does not apply in this application. He is not jumping a ruck sack so he does not need a system designed to do so. The military has Javelins and Vectors that the instructors jump HALO that are normal containers. CPS even offers them as there instructor series containers. There was extensive testing done on both sport vs. tandem containers for the military and we found that the sport containers failed at about 8K lbs and the tandem at 14K lbs. So the weak link here is not the container it is the canopy and the person.

Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is!

[LouDiamond 1]

The thing everyone seems to be missing here is that there will be a need for a console or other onboard O2 system for the people to breath off of during the climb to altitude AND a bailout bottle system for the freefall portion. You cannot expect a person to carry a bottle capable of holding enough O2 to do both without making a sacrifice(read safety) somewhere in the process. The Airox VIII on the military system allows the jumper to be hooked up to both and switch over from the console to the bottles seamlessly. A civilian system would need a similar set up in order to do this correctly/safely.

The regulator system be it on the mask or inline with the system needs to be able to differentiate when it needs to provide more O2 at higher altitudes and less at lower altitudes(diluter demand is preferable). The goal is to maintain oxygen pressure in the lungs as though they were at sea level. This is normally accomplished by what is known as pressure breathing or 100% O2. This is effective up to 34k feet for just maintaining normal blood oxygenation, 100% O2 under normal pressure any higher(up to 40k) will not fully oxygenate the blood but will provide acceptable protection from hypoxia. Above 40k even 100% O2 is not enough. In order to prevent hypoxia, O2 must be delivered under increased pressure to force it into the blood stream. This is why you need more than grandmas O2 bottle and a nasal cannula in everyones nose.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[MikeForsythe 0]

Quote

The thing everyone seems to be missing here is that there will be a need for a console or other onboard O2 system for the people to breath off of during the climb to altitude AND a bailout bottle system for the freefall portion.

Not everyone But you are right Scott, using the proven system with a console is the only way that this should be done. I would even go further to say that I would use the system for the lower jumps just for the experience and to work out any issues such as bottle location, regulator and hose placement. This way when he goes to do the 30K+ jump he will not be adding anything new to the jump as far as equipment and have one less thing to worry about.

Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is!