What is the purpose of Secondary Riser Covers?

[77r 0]

Ok. I tried doing a search and all I found were questions about putting them in after market and such and so I'm just going to ask here.

What is the purpose of having Secondary Riser Covers? What do they do that makes you want to have them on your rig?

[PhreeZone 15]

They help keep your risers in place if your primary riser cover opens some how. Having an open riser cover can be very bad since toggles can fly out and knot up causing very dangerous situations. This mainly occurs freeflying.

A rigger can show you on rigs like the Vector3 where they are and how they work,

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[jumper03 0]

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They help keep your risers in place if your primary riser cover opens some how. Having an open riser cover can be very bad since toggles can fly out and knot up causing very dangerous situations. This mainly occurs freeflying.

A rigger can show you on rigs like the Vector3 where they are and how they work,

They are there to get in the packers way....

Scars remind us that the past is real

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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What is the purpose of having Secondary Riser Covers?

See what PZone said up thread.

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What do they do that makes you want to have them on your rig?

Again... see what PZone said up thread... all very true and accurate... but, my 2 cents, they are also a "free-fly-friendly" "feature" added a few years back now to many rigs for all that and also "pushed", in part, to the newbs that they're "new" = "better" and one "should have them!"... along with allowing the misconception to also proliferate that older rigs or other designs sans them were "bad" and "scary". Since otherwise new buyers wouldn't buy new rigs (the only way mfgr's make $$$).

So, if you're looking to get in to FF... then by all means, get a rig with secondary riser covers, you want to do that, but if you're looking at RW, then a good used rig or new rig of a design sans secodary riser covers is just fine and no more "black deathy" then the other.



Anyway, good on ya 77r for asking questions about gear. Ask lots of qustions about gear. You don't have to be a Master Rigger, but the more you know about your gear in this sport and the way it operates and WHY the better you'll be. Ask lots of people the same questions and when they tell you what they think also ask or try to understand why they think that / came to that conclusion. You may be surprised to learn how little some in this sport know about gear and also be surprised how many think the things they do because "someone said so" without much thought, investigation or understanding on their part.


Good luck! Blue Skies, and like I say below, keep pulling handles until... (i.e. never give up)

[2shay 0]

I absolutely agree with pzone. My thoughts on it are, why not have them? No matter what position (freeflying or rw) your ass is covered. I guess I don't understand other's ideas of, "well this rig is fine for being on your belly" Why not KNOW, no matter what this rig is sound in the air. If you doubt it, you may just ask yourself, what am I going to gain by not having them?

Joel

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[MakeItHappen 15]

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They help keep your risers in place if your primary riser cover opens some how. Having an open riser cover can be very bad since toggles can fly out and knot up causing very dangerous situations. This mainly occurs freeflying.

A rigger can show you on rigs like the Vector3 where they are and how they work,

So for those of us not hip on the latest fix to the tuck tabs riser covers opening at all the wrong times problem, what are secondary riser covers.? picture please

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[diablopilot 2]

http://www.velocityrigs.com/products.php?product=infinity&sub=features&film=2&flmpos=2

These are the best designed primary and secondary covers on the market.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[2shay 0]

Look at the rig tour on the UPT site.

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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I absolutely agree with pzone. My thoughts on it are, why not have them?

Secondary riser covers are NOT a guarantee that you'll never have a riser / toggel come loose in freefall and cause you problems.

I know one jumper that was jumping a rig with secondary riser covers... the riser cover came open in freefall, the main riser / toggle on that side got loose and on main deployment he had a mal, cut-away and uneventful reserve ride and landing.

Was on a 40-way once, looked across the formation saw a jumper docked on the other side with about 3 feet of steering line and toggle trailing behind him... his riser covers were closed. He had a hell of a wonky main opening at the bottom end, but it didn't mal and he unstowed his other toggle, flew and landed his main uneventfully.

I've never jumped a rig with secondary riser covers and have funneled a countless number of exits, been back-packed or fruitlooped, had a riser cover come un-done or not, and never had a problem. Just because I never have, I'm not saying I never will, just a statement of how goes it thus far.

Folks doing freestyle, back in the day, did so on rigs that didn't have secondary riser covers.

I often talk to some of the really old grey hairs at the DZ about "back in their day" they used to jump gutt gear and capewells and how did they do that!!?? It came down to, "If you wanted to skydive, that's what you jumped".

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I guess I don't understand other's ideas of, "well this rig is fine for being on your belly" Why not KNOW, no matter what this rig is sound in the air. If you doubt it, you may just ask yourself, what am I going to gain by not having them?

Two true-isms in this sport...

1) There is a large amount of "luck" we're counting on in doing this thing of jumping out of an airplane with a glorified bed sheet strapped to our backs hopping it will morph itself from a neat pack-job to a perfectly operating ram-air parachute... while being a streaming "mess" of nylon and lines seaking to sort itself out in between.

and...

2) Folks in that 0 to 5ish years in the sport tend to view the "norm" of gear in place as they come into the sport as the "necessary." I'll bet we could all take our Jav/Odessys or V3s or Micros and jump in a time machine, warp about 20 years to the future, step onto a DZ with our circa 2000 to 2007 gear and hear all kinds of criticism towards it as tomorrow's generation of jumpers gears up and heads towards the airplane with their spiffy new "anti-gravity belts & rocket boots"...

[MakeItHappen 15]

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http://www.velocityrigs.com/products.php?product=infinity&sub=features&film=2&flmpos=2

These are the best designed primary and secondary covers on the market.

So, it's just a wider flap that wraps the risers?
It is still held in by the tuck tabs at the shoulder - ok some tension from wrapping the big flap around the risers helps too.
BTW, where is their packing manual?

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Look at the rig tour on the UPT site.

Did not see any rig tour.
I did look at the latest, greatest manual and did not see anything there either.


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[pilotdave 0]

I have a little trouble understanding how someone doesn't see the benefit of secondary riser covers for any type of skydiving. Have you never seen a toggle floating behind an old javelin or racer in freefall? Haven't you ever had to push someones riser/toggle back into place during a gear check? The secondary riser covers don't only help when the riser cover opens, they help when the riser cover is closed properly.

Dave

[2shay 0]

no where did i say that they were a gurantee. Or that rigs without them are unsafe. However, secondary riser covers have been proven to definitely reduce the risks.

you are right there is a lot of luck. I will say that I would much rather skydive in a v3 or equivalent rather than an old wonderhog or something. There is a reason why they have put these features on rigs and why they also make them the standard on them as well. Once again not foolproof

Well we are not back in the day anymore so we do have a choice to jump more sound rigs.

It just takes one time.

It is all about reducing the risk Brotha.

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[2shay 0]

go to products, then micron or m series then on options panel below it will have rig tour at the top of the list.

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[jumper03 0]

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I have a little trouble understanding how someone doesn't see the benefit of secondary riser covers for any type of skydiving. Have you never seen a toggle floating behind an old javelin or racer in freefall? Haven't you ever had to push someones riser/toggle back into place during a gear check? The secondary riser covers don't only help when the riser cover opens, they help when the riser cover is closed properly.

Okay - my serious reply as a packer/rigger. Secondary riser covers a good idea *IF* I say *IF* they are packed correctly.

However, I would say 9 out of 10 rigs that I pack that have secondary riser covers HAVE NOT been packed correctly. This causes those pain in the ass flaps to take a set and then they can't be closed correctly. So now, not only do you not have the protection they offer, but you have an extra flap flapping in the wind offering that riser something else to hang up on.

If you got them - use them right. Otherwise, you might as well rip them off now.

Jump

Scars remind us that the past is real

[PhreeZone 15]

Direct link: http://www.unitedparachutetechnologies.com/rigtour/rigtour.swf

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Dave, I will not be drawn into another fruitless arguement other then to say "yes" to all of what you posed. Even that withstanding, I don't think secondary riser covers are "necessary", sure they bring some "goodness", but "necessary", I think not. Your opinion differs, I'm okay with that, please aford me the same.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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However, secondary riser covers have been proven to definitely reduce the risks.

Proven? Proven how? Cause someone "says so" or the "theory is" they should??

You think they're the "bee's knees", wouldn't jump a rig without em! Have at it. If you're freeflyin', yeah, have em on your rig, they probably do more to help then harm... IF packed correctly.


Done here.

*Zig Out*

Door!!!

[MakeItHappen 15]

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no where did i say that they were a gurantee. Or that rigs without them are unsafe. However, secondary riser covers have been proven to definitely reduce the risks.

proven how?

It's funny that the two rigs mentioned with tuck tab problems are not also the two companies mentioned with the 'new solution'.
Kinda makes you think that all mfgs have had tuck tabs problems.

Also - as a historical side note on Racers: The reason racer riser covers came apart so often was because the velcro was either worn out or not mated correctly. You cannot depend on jumpers to do things right all of the time.

BTW, thanks for the instructions for the hard to find 'rig tour' link.

When I look at the RWS (aka ??? what was that acronym?) secondary riser covers I see a good way to unstow toggles during deployment or even hanging a main riser.
I am sure if you stowed everything the right way that would not happen, but jumpers won't do that 100% of the time

Just to be clear, the toggles are on the back of the rear risers.
The secondary flap is supposed to lie directly on top of the front of the front risers.
This assumes that the risers are to be packed with the main toggles inboard.

One scenario I can think of is someone that stows the risers over the top of the secondary riser cover.
This would place the riser cover and the toggles in close proximity to each other with a shearing motion during deployment.
A toggle has (most often-nowadays anyway) a keeper for the top tip of the toggle.
The keeper may or may not be close ended (at the top side of the toggle tip.)
Now, if the more-or-less 'rigid' binding tape portion of the secondary flap jammed into the space between the toggle tip and the toggle keeper or if the binding tape jammed in-between the toggle and riser at the bottom end of the toggle, you could have an unstowed brake or a riser hangup.

Another scenario is that the secondary flap 'sticks out' and then is tucked in at some later point in time.
Who knows where that flap will get tucked into.

Another scenario is the person that packs the toggles outboard and uses the flap properly. That will also have a high probabily of a toggle snag or riser hangup.

The Velocity version of the secondary riser cover also looked like it could hang or displace a toggle when it was packed correctly too.
I am assuming that the flap gets tucked in under the risers and the risers are stowed with brakes inboard.
Someone could put longer risers on the main and make it really easy for a toggle hangup.


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DiveMaker

[champu 1]

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what am I going to gain by not having them?

As Jan mentioned, "More stuff" around your control system can be problematic if not designed and packed properly. This would certainly make me adverse to having after-market secondary riser covers added, even with a master rigger being the one to do it.

Also, hangups of one or both risers during deployment can cause off heading and hard openings. Do you stow both sets of risers all while sitting on one side of your rig? (I do.) It's easy to not quite stow the two sides the same when you do it this way, and if the design isn't sufficiently immune to this, you can cause problems.

[sundevil777 94]

Rigs without the secondary covers tend to have 'deeper' primary covers instead. This is shown by how much the side flaps of such rigs extend to serve as that deep, protected channel for the risers.

Rigs with secondary covers (I think)

Infinity
Vector III
Mirage

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[DougH 270]

Add the Icon to that list...

Unfortunately the last owner(s?) of my rig didn't take the time to use them properly, and now they don't cover the risers nearly as well as they could.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[pilotdave 0]

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Even that withstanding, I don't think secondary riser covers are "necessary", sure they bring some "goodness", but "necessary", I think not. Your opinion differs,

Nope, I completely agree... I also own a Reflex, which does not have secondary riser covers or many of the other improvements on my Vector3, but I'm still willing to jump it. So no, I don't think they're "necessary," just that they're a good thing to have.

Rigs without them hold the risers and toggles in just fine... MOST of the time. To my knowledge I've never had any flaps/covers open on my Reflex when they weren't supposed to. But the design does allow for it to happen. There's just no way that could happen on a properly packed vector3 (or similar).

Jan mentioned "One scenario I can think of is someone that stows the risers over the top of the secondary riser cover." Maybe possible, but it would look ridiculous packed that way. The risers would be completely exposed on the outside of the rig (because the main riser covers aren't so deep). It's not a realistic scenario... and even if a packer did that, it would be completely obvious.

Dave

[diablopilot 2]

It's a seperate (secondary) flap. Looks as if it's an exension of the reserve flap. The primary riser covers are of the more conventional type tucking from the outside of the shoulder, in, while the secondarys go from the inside towards the outside.

It protects the riser for it's entire length, while not inhibiting deployment.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[2shay 0]

>Proven? Proven how? Cause someone "says so" or the "theory is" they should??

Because I have seen friends jumping rigs without and having shit fly open which could have been prevented by secondary riser covers

>You think they're the "bee's knees", wouldn't jump a rig without em! Have at it. If you're freeflyin', yeah, have em on your rig, they probably do more to help then harm... IF packed correctly.

You said it yourself they probably do more help than harm. I have jumped quite a few without them, so yes i would and never did I say that I wouldn't. OF COURSE YOU MUST PACK THEM CORRECTLY. When did I say that they would work if packed improperly? Wouldn't you have to route an rsl correctly for it to work properly? OF COURSE. If you speak with any manufacturer or anyone in the business they will tell you that no system is perfect, but used properly they can reduce certain risks.

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[2shay 0]

You can twist what i have said all I want. Packed properly they will reduce risks. That would also be human error for packing them wrong, not the system. Why don't you contact someone like Bill Booth and ask him why they have them on their rigs. I also think it is ironic that Arizona Airspeed were all using vector 3's in the flim "Crosswind" they are some of the best RW guys and gals ever and they didn't seem to have a problem jumping them.

don't try your bullshit with me!!!