new gear

[mjohnson 0]

Hey, my name is Mark. I am looking at getting a new rig here within the next couple months. I am seriously looking at the Sunrise Wings. I also plan on going with a Smart 190, but am not sure what I want for a main yet. I am pretty new to the sport so I don't know what are the best brands, or what would be best for me. I was looking at the Aerodyne Pilot but I would rather have a canopy with a quicker opening...any suggestions? I would go to the local dz and other shops, but I am in Iraq right now and won't be back until the summer. I'm going to order the rig so it will be ready when I get back...already got a trip planned!! Anyone have any coupons they aren't using? Myself and a couple of my army buddies are all ordering new gear. Any help is appreciated.

Blue Skies!! MJ

[slotperfect 7]

Posts about gear should be in the Gear and Rigging Forum . . .

Arrive Safely

John

[darkwing 4]

There are many good rigs out there, and Wings is one of them. Smart reserves enjoy a decent reputation, but probably the most respected reserve is the PD.

As far as your main goes, I'd recommend that opening fast is about the last criterion you want to use. Other aspects of a main are FAR more important. General a Pilot, Sabre2, Safire2 are widely discussed as being decent first canopies. Consider used.

BTW - how much do you weigh?

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[tdog 0]

I jumped a Pilot for about 400 jumps...

I don't understand your comment about wanting something quicker opening... I used it on some big ways and AFF evaluation jumps, both where you have a chance of pulling a bit lower than normal - and it opened just fine to give me plenty of time to fly home and land... I would say I liked the openings the best about that canopy and trusted it the most of any canopy I have jumped for nice openings. I personally really did not like the landing characteristics, so out of personal preference I don't recommend it. But others out of personal preference will disagree...

Speaking of coupons, since you asked, I have seen a banner ad for Aerodyne canopies for $960 on this site... I won't purchase Aerodyne because of their resale value even if I liked their landings. Let me explain:

I have a few examples, but here is an actual e-mail I got from a gear dealer who wanted to buy mine on consignment who said they could not sell mine for what I wanted:

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In my experience, the Pilot mains have been tearing through steering lines within 200 jumps and full line sets at 500. So I was factoring that in to my guesstimate. Also in 2004 I sold a lot of stock Pilots on our dz for $1,000, per Aerodynes year end sale. That fucked the perceived resale value 'round here.

I waited and found someone who was willing to pay a fair price based upon the current market price... I am so glad I sold mine last year, because if I would have waited I would never have gotten $800 for used that I thought was fair based upon what other brands were selling for and condition. I would have been lucky for $650-$700 as the buyer could have said, "why pay $800 when for $150 more I could buy new?"

Now the cycle repeats for another few years. Everyone who purchased for the $1597 price advertised at a reputable online dealer last week, now faces a $500 drop in the used market price.

This is only good if you are able to time the sales - but don't expect to sell for a high price either when you want to change.

So, back to your question... Be careful of "coupons and sales" in an industry where products hold a substantial resale value... If you know of a manufacture who often drops 33% off of their price, if you don't buy on the sale, you lost a bunch of money... The only manufacture I have seen do this is Aerodyne. Everyone else seems to keep pretty flat and the price is dependant on your negotiation skills and buying power (volume) with the dealer.

So, my recommendation is find a canopy you like by demoing, then negotiate the best price you can and/or buy used... If that manufacture has put the canopy on stock sales or coupon sales in the past, don't buy unless you get that low price...

[darkwing 4]

It sounds like you are saying if you buy for $1000 and sell used for $600 you are screwed, and if you buy for $1500 and sell for $1000 you aren't???

Pilots are great canopies. Prices vary. They seem to be flying off the shelves faster than Aerodyne can make them. I've been trying to buy another one recently. It is hard to give away a Sabre 2 around here.

I certainly haven't seen anything I would call abnormal wear on Pilot lines, and I tend to pay attention to such things.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[dragon2 0]

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the Pilot mains have been tearing through steering lines within 200 jumps and full line sets at 500

What´s so abnormal about that, you should be replacing your lines in about that time anyway

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[tdog 0]

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It sounds like you are saying if you buy for $1000 and sell used for $600 you are screwed, and if you buy for $1500 and sell for $1000 you aren't???

In that scenario you are not screwed...

However, the last $1000 sale lasted 1 month, specifically December of 2004. I don't know how long the current sale is going to last???

Where you get screwed is when you buy at the "normal price" that is offered 97.2% of the time per previous history... Those people buy a canopy for $1500, then have to sell for $600 because the sales kill the used market value.... Imagine a newer jumper who purchased a Pilot 6 months ago and now wants to downsize a bit... He could have purchased another manufacture for $1500 and sold for $1200. With a Pilot he purchased for $1500 and now has to beat the $960 factory sale by enough margin to make purchasing a used canopy worth while...

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It is hard to give away a Sabre 2 around here.

I will take one please, so as long as you are giving it away. I will even pay a fair price I have looked on the classifieds on these forums for a Spectre or Sabre 2 for my wingsuit jumps and they are hard to find and hold their value....

But back to the thread topic, and why I made the post in the first place. I was simply suggesting be concerned about "buying with coupons" as the used price might be affected, especially if you can't use a coupon yourself.

[snafuhere 0]

nowing nothing about your experience I would suggest pilot or spectre: for safe, predictable, on-heading openings

while I was jumping my wingsiut - pilot & spectre opened ok regardeless of my sometimes poor opening positions, I consider those canopies safe(er)

https://www.facebook.com/1skydive/

[bigway 4]

I sent you a private message.
Go to messages at the top of the page and click on it.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[bigway 4]

The current sale ends in April. You need to get in quick though as they are selling fast. Remember the sale is only on their stock canopies.

A Manufacturer is not going to have many stock canopies in stock for the popular sizes now are they, the poular sizes are the first to go to the people who do not want to wait the period for a custom to be built.
Then a manufacturer is left with canopies in stock that are sizes not so popular so they have a clearence sale to try and sell these off for the new year.

What i am trying to say is if you bought a Pilot 168 for example or 150 6 months ago, the value has not dropped to $960


If anybody here can purchase a brand new Pilot 168/150 from Aerodyne for under $1000USD with no coupons or vouchers or sponsorship and I will buy it for you.


For people to say the pilot loses it's value because of a stock clearence sale, you obviously have not seen the sizes of canopies that are part of that clearence sale.

There are a few Mambas there in that sale that would be an excellent purchase however.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[3331 108]

New gear is here http://www.jumpshack.com/

I Jumped with the guys who invented Skydiving.

[JackR 0]

Entering this thread late, but (like everyone else) have no end of "advice" for getting gear.

I tend to think that the longest delays in gear purchases is the container. You can get that order in and hold off on a canopy until you get home and can demo gear.

I don't have as much experience with Wings, but I'm a big fan of Infinity, Javelin, and Vector containers.

I've been a long time supporter of PD. Now the sales pitch aside, go to their website and click on the Support-Sport link. They have posted two articles on Choosing the Right Canopy. Read through these because they will discuss many of the aspects of canopy design beyond opening speed that go into making an informed canopy decision. Think about planform, wing loading, skydiving style (RW or Freeflying, competition or casual), load sizes (how many people do you normally share the air and landing area with?), DZ consistency (Do you always jump at the same DZ or do you move around with work or do you boogie hop?), experience landing out, and even the people you normally jump with. All of these will have some level of influence on your canopy decision.

(I like including the aircraft and DZ because many people think buying a canopy is about them and the canopy. Remember that you're not skydiving in a vacuum. The other people on your load can drastically affect decisions you make at landing time. The tight experienced landing area quite a ways from the student landing area may mean you need to commit to the landing area higher up.)

I just found Skydive Radio, a podcast by skydivers for skydivers. If you can access these episodes (http://www.skydiveradio.com) go through some of them. These guys interview some of the best canopy designers and pilots in the world.

Every skydiver is different. The best canopy pilots out there don't agree on canopies, but they do agree that the canopy you choose should fit your style, skill, and goals in jumping. What is good for me, may not fit your style of jumping.

Given that you're looking at a Smart 190, I'm guessing that you're thinking about a 190 or 170 size main. Talk with the container manufacturer. I usually figure you can go up or down one canopy size from the optimal design. So if you're thinking you may float between 170 and 210 in main size, get the container made for a 190. If you're thinking of floating between a 150 and 190, get a container made for a 170.

Unless you're completely committed to custom brand new gear waiting for your homecoming, I would hold off on a canopy purchase until you get a chance to demo some gear. Contact the manufactures and see if they can send a demo canopy to you upon your return. That way you're not without a canopy. Rotate through some different canopies. If your army buddies are about the same size and skill level as you, have them get demos of other canopies. Share them around until you're ready to make a decision.

Aside from the other value discussions, canopies hold their value well. You can get a good used canopy for the next 100 or so jumps and use that time to demo some gear and talk with friends, riggers, and manufacturers to find the canopy that fits you.

I know I've only complicated what seems like a simple question. I wish you the best in finding the right gear for you.

P.S. Thank you for your service in Iraq. Get home safely.

Packin' Jack
42nd Lost Prairie: The Ultimate Answer to Life, the Universe, and Skydiving
25 Jul - 3 Aug 2009
2007 photos: http://www.skydive.com/prairie/pages/prairie.htm

[EAerodyne 0]

I though I'd add my 2 cents to this as well :-)

The stock sale was for older stock canopies sitting on our shelves since 2005, because of bizarre colour schemes (sometimes ordered incorrectly by customers then put into stock with the off chance of selling them) Or smaller canopies also sometimes ordered by customers, and produced, but when investigating further, find the customer is not suited to be jumping at such a wing loading and then added to stock in the event that someone may sell them.

As for resale value.... basically, we can't build pilots fast enough. We are producing as many as we can right now and the demand is absolutely higher than ever before. Due to this scenario, we have been unable to stock our shelves with the most popular sizes and colours, as the slots in production which were reserved for stock, have been changed to custom orders, in an order to keep delivery times down, and still get product out the door.

The last thing I think you need to be concerned about is that you can't sell your Pilot, and that the value has decreased. This is absolutely not true, and as mentioned above, the demand far out weighs our production capacity at present. The canopies sold on sale were a clear out of older, smaller canopies that had been sitting on our shelves for close to 2 years and hadn't moved due to colour combinations, or size.

What are we doing about the increased demand. I leave for South Africa on Monday to further evaluate the possibility of adding 2 new automated cutting tables and increased floor space so as to add new machines and seamstress's... as always I am 100% committed to improving our delivery times to customers, whilst not dropping the quality we have worked so hard to achieve.

For those of you waiting on your new canopies from Aerodyne and reading this post. Production times are coming down fast, and we have increased production capacity by 17 % over the past month by means of a total reshuffle of our production floor to achieve more effeciency. Thank you for your patronage, and we hope you are flying your new Aerodyne canopies very soon.

Kind regards and blue skies

[taron 0]

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...
For those of you waiting on your new canopies from Aerodyne and reading this post. Production times are coming down fast, and we have increased production capacity by 17 % over the past month by means of a total reshuffle of our production floor to achieve more effeciency. Thank you for your patronage, and we hope you are flying your new Aerodyne canopies very soon.

ok, I'll try to be patient for a few more weeks :)

[tbrown 26]

If you're worried about the "investment value" of a rig, you're in the wrong sport. Old gear never sells for as much as new, which is why people buy so much used gear, especially main canopies. If you can sell your canopy for 60% of what your next one will cost you, you'll shrug it off and live with it.

I jump a Pilot and absolutely love it. I've also owned and jumped a Spectre and have a very high regard for them as well. But the Pilot has a much longer & flatter glide, by far. That will help you get home from the long spots that will happen. As for the openings, both canopies are lovely. You don't really want too fast of an opening either, though in my experience the Sabre2 is quicker, yet still comfortable. If you're throwing out your p/c by 3 grand you should have no problems with any of these canopies. And since you're in the market, definitely demo a Safire2 if you can. I've never jumped one myself, but the people I know who own them are in love with them. It only makes sense to try before you buy.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[airtwardo 6]

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I tend to think that the longest delays in gear purchases is the container. You can get that order in and hold off on a canopy until you get home and can demo gear.

Strong Ent. will deliver you a Quazar ll in 2 weeks, at a DAMN good price!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[bigway 4]

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I tend to think that the longest delays in gear purchases is the container. You can get that order in and hold off on a canopy until you get home and can demo gear.

Strong Ent. will deliver you a Quazar ll in 2 weeks, at a DAMN good price!

Aerodyne will deliver one of their stock container, canopy and reserve known as 'elements' with a custom made harness in 21 days.

These rigs are black and have the 'V' panel over the reserve in either camo, blue, red or green with matching canopies. They are to represent 4 elements.
I personally thing they look excellent, would be very easy to resell as they are of simple colours and as the harness is custom made to fit the buyer this is a very good option.
Purchasing a custom fitted complete kit and having it delivered within 21 days is remarkable in this sport.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.