Scoop 0 #26 November 3, 2006 I think Sunrise Manufacturing deserve a big thank you and praise for their customer service. Thank you Ankie! I e-mailed them with my enquiry with attached photo on 29th October, today, the 3rd November I have a new handle on my door mat as I step in. Bearing in mind the US-UK transit I'd say thats a mighty fine effort. Thanks again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 613 #27 November 3, 2006 QuoteLooking at this packing error further... If the cypres were to fire would the top flap being inside the pocket on the bottom flap cause a total of your reserve? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I doubt if it would suffer a total malfunction. First of all, the top flap (pin cover) on Wings is more flexible than most. It is only reinforced with ballistic cloth, not MDS plastic like most others. Secondly, even when closed incorrectly, the configuration is close to the correct configuration. Yes, the depth of the pocket is a bit smaller, but that should still be enough to allow it to open. The best way to check is to don the rig and pull the ripcord. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kkeenan 14 #28 November 3, 2006 QuoteI think Sunrise Manufacturing deserve a big thank you and praise for their customer service. Considering that they sent you the wrong part in the first place and could have killed you and your friends, I think it's the least they could do, in my opinion. Did Sunrise Mfg. pack the reserve for you ? Since their quality inspectors missed the ripcord cable length mistake, the rigger packing the reserve should have caught it. All's well that ends well. Kevin_____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Scoop 0 #29 November 4, 2006 I guess your cup is always half empty As you say, whatever the cause of the ill fitting cable it was replaced with no fuss and in a timely fashion. THANKS! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crazydiver 0 #30 November 5, 2006 Tell your rigger to read the manual and close the reserve properly. Also tell your rigger that the rig needs to be sealed. Mention to him also that the reserve pin should not be inserted into the loop that far up with the neck of the pin resting on the grommet. This can create a bent pin and/or hard pull. And don't get too excited over wings. Any manuracturer will be that eager to please when a mistake is made. I was assembling a customer's main once onto brand new risers from Wings. One was manufactured correctly. The other riser had the three rings on the front side of the riser as they should be, but the rest was manufactured backwards with the front dive loop on the rear riser and the toggle and guide ring on the front riser...thats some quality control for ya. All I can say is that with that type of quality control, I recommend never having Sunrise Rigging assemble and pack your brand new wings...in fear of them not catching something like that on harness construction. Cheers, Travis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Scoop 0 #31 November 5, 2006 It's all done now, hunky dory. Reserve cable now comes down to bottom of the handle and flaps are in order As for sealing: QuoteOnly Riggers, Advanced Packers and packers with the appropriately endorsed packing certificate may seal reserves and must use a method acceptable to the BPA Riggers Sub-Committee. The rigger/packer should use a method of identification on their seal that is identifiable to him/her. Seal thread must be a thread manufactured to break at no more than 6lbs. The sealing of reserves is optional. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DJL 235 #32 November 5, 2006 QuoteI guess your cup is always half empty As you say, whatever the cause of the ill fitting cable it was replaced with no fuss and in a timely fashion. THANKS! No, I think Kevin just realizes that Sunpath makes skydiving equipment that needs to be built correctly at the risk of injury or death. They're not a bunch of kids making macaroni necklaces who get "a big thank you and praise" when they finally get it right."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bodypilot90 0 #33 November 5, 2006 QuoteI recommend never having Sunrise Rigging assemble and pack your brand new wings...in fear of them not catching something like that on harness construction. or any other place as well. I had my container modified (closing loop mod), cleaned and a flap replaced, and repacked. Rigger doing the work damaged the reserve risers to the point of being unairworthy. Was only found after the next repack. After the manufacturer replaced the harness asked if i wanted a free repack, I decided i could not trust them Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DJL 235 #34 November 6, 2006 QuoteQuoteI guess your cup is always half empty As you say, whatever the cause of the ill fitting cable it was replaced with no fuss and in a timely fashion. THANKS! No, I think Kevin just realizes that Sunrise makes skydiving equipment that needs to be built correctly at the risk of injury or death. They're not a bunch of kids making macaroni necklaces who get "a big thank you and praise" when they finally get it right. edited"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crazydiver 0 #35 November 6, 2006 Quote As for sealing: QuoteOnly Riggers, Advanced Packers and packers with the appropriately endorsed packing certificate may seal reserves and must use a method acceptable to the BPA Riggers Sub-Committee. The rigger/packer should use a method of identification on their seal that is identifiable to him/her. Seal thread must be a thread manufactured to break at no more than 6lbs. The sealing of reserves is optional. Are you from England? This is something I didn't know before now since your profile says nothing. Also...regardless...the rigger must follow the manufacturers directions as well...which states in step 16 of the packing directions for their reserves.. "16. Seal the reserve container and log the work done on the packing data card and in your rigger’s logbook." Cheers, Travis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 99 #36 November 6, 2006 If the laws in England state that sealing of the reserve is optional, then that would take precedence over a general requirement to follow mfg instructions.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crazydiver 0 #37 November 6, 2006 QuoteIf the laws in England state that sealing of the reserve is optional, then that would take precedence over a general requirement to follow mfg instructions. I disagree. If the federal requirements mandate following the manufacturer instructions it does take precidence. If the manufacturer said the sealing was optional or didn't mention in in their manual...then it would be optional...but since its in the manufacturer instructions, it is mandated, it simply isn't set forth by the government. Cheers, Travis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 99 #38 November 6, 2006 QuoteQuoteIf the laws in England state that sealing of the reserve is optional, then that would take precedence over a general requirement to follow mfg instructions. I disagree. If the federal requirements mandate following the manufacturer instructions it does take precidence. If the manufacturer said the sealing was optional or didn't mention in in their manual...then it would be optional...but since its in the manufacturer instructions, it is mandated, it simply isn't set forth by the government. No, without the law requiring a rigger to follow the mfg instructions, everything would be optional. If the laws of England specifically allow that the seal may be omitted, then that supersedes a general requirement to follow mfg instructions. I don't know what the English law is and I am not a lawyer, but I don't see how you could see it any other way, and apparently so do English authorities, because it is common for it to be omitted, correct?People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Scoop 0 #39 November 6, 2006 Who cares, I mean really. Its not illegal and not having a seal isn't going to hinder the performance in any way. EDIT: I've added a poll for UK skydivers HERE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cpoxon 0 #40 November 6, 2006 QuoteQuoteIf the laws in England state that sealing of the reserve is optional, then that would take precedence over a general requirement to follow mfg instructions. I disagree. If the federal requirements mandate following the manufacturer instructions it does take precidence. FAR Sec. 105.49 Foreign parachutists and equipment QuoteThe reserve parachute must be packed in accordance with the foreign parachutist's civil aviation authority requirements, by a certificated parachute rigger, or any other person acceptable to the Administrator. I guess it depends on the nationality of the manufacturer and jumper of the equipment? It's a bit like the argument about foreign jumpers with TSO'd equipment (or part TSOd, like the container but not the reserve)?Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 99 #41 November 6, 2006 I thought the issue was what is legal in England. I would expect the seal to be required for a visiting foreign jumper.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,379 #42 November 6, 2006 QuoteQuoteIf the laws in England state that sealing of the reserve is optional, then that would take precedence over a general requirement to follow mfg instructions. I disagree. If the federal requirements mandate following the manufacturer instructions it does take precidence. If the manufacturer said the sealing was optional or didn't mention in in their manual...then it would be optional...but since its in the manufacturer instructions, it is mandated, it simply isn't set forth by the government. What do you mean? You've just established he's in England, so federal requirements are totally irrelevant. Why would the FAA be able to tell us what to do?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crazydiver 0 #43 November 6, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteIf the laws in England state that sealing of the reserve is optional, then that would take precedence over a general requirement to follow mfg instructions. I disagree. If the federal requirements mandate following the manufacturer instructions it does take precidence. If the manufacturer said the sealing was optional or didn't mention in in their manual...then it would be optional...but since its in the manufacturer instructions, it is mandated, it simply isn't set forth by the government. What do you mean? You've just established he's in England, so federal requirements are totally irrelevant. Why would the FAA be able to tell us what to do? England has a government as well. We're not the only country with a civilized governing body. When I said federal requirements, I mean requirements by the government. Cheers, Travis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crazydiver 0 #44 November 6, 2006 QuoteI thought the issue was what is legal in England. I would expect the seal to be required for a visiting foreign jumper. It sounds like I shall stand corrected. I will add, however, that it really surprises me that because the manufacturer mandates it that it does not take precedence for legal and for liability issues. In the FAR's in the US, it does mandate the use of a seal, but even if it didn't, because the manufacturer does, a seal would be required. Cheers, Travis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 613 #45 November 6, 2006 May I input a parellel from the Canadian Air Regulations? They state that a Canadian pilot - operating a Canadian-registered airplane - overseas must follow CARS except where CARS are repugnant to local practice. That also applies to Canadian Air Maintenance Engineers repairing Canadian-registered airplanes operated overseas. Which means that a Canadian AME - working overseas - will follow CARS 99% of the time. Ergo, a rigger packing for a Brit should follow the rig manufacturer's manual until the Brit complains. For example, I repack reserves for a couple of Brits that live near Pitt Meadows. I seal their reserves until they complain. Both of them think the BPA rule is a bit silly. Especially when you consider that the controversy started when some Wally sealed a reserve with nylon E thread (8 pounds) instead of the proper cotton witness/safety/sealing thread (4.5 pounds). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 2 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
riggerrob 613 #27 November 3, 2006 QuoteLooking at this packing error further... If the cypres were to fire would the top flap being inside the pocket on the bottom flap cause a total of your reserve? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I doubt if it would suffer a total malfunction. First of all, the top flap (pin cover) on Wings is more flexible than most. It is only reinforced with ballistic cloth, not MDS plastic like most others. Secondly, even when closed incorrectly, the configuration is close to the correct configuration. Yes, the depth of the pocket is a bit smaller, but that should still be enough to allow it to open. The best way to check is to don the rig and pull the ripcord. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kkeenan 14 #28 November 3, 2006 QuoteI think Sunrise Manufacturing deserve a big thank you and praise for their customer service. Considering that they sent you the wrong part in the first place and could have killed you and your friends, I think it's the least they could do, in my opinion. Did Sunrise Mfg. pack the reserve for you ? Since their quality inspectors missed the ripcord cable length mistake, the rigger packing the reserve should have caught it. All's well that ends well. Kevin_____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scoop 0 #29 November 4, 2006 I guess your cup is always half empty As you say, whatever the cause of the ill fitting cable it was replaced with no fuss and in a timely fashion. THANKS! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crazydiver 0 #30 November 5, 2006 Tell your rigger to read the manual and close the reserve properly. Also tell your rigger that the rig needs to be sealed. Mention to him also that the reserve pin should not be inserted into the loop that far up with the neck of the pin resting on the grommet. This can create a bent pin and/or hard pull. And don't get too excited over wings. Any manuracturer will be that eager to please when a mistake is made. I was assembling a customer's main once onto brand new risers from Wings. One was manufactured correctly. The other riser had the three rings on the front side of the riser as they should be, but the rest was manufactured backwards with the front dive loop on the rear riser and the toggle and guide ring on the front riser...thats some quality control for ya. All I can say is that with that type of quality control, I recommend never having Sunrise Rigging assemble and pack your brand new wings...in fear of them not catching something like that on harness construction. Cheers, Travis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scoop 0 #31 November 5, 2006 It's all done now, hunky dory. Reserve cable now comes down to bottom of the handle and flaps are in order As for sealing: QuoteOnly Riggers, Advanced Packers and packers with the appropriately endorsed packing certificate may seal reserves and must use a method acceptable to the BPA Riggers Sub-Committee. The rigger/packer should use a method of identification on their seal that is identifiable to him/her. Seal thread must be a thread manufactured to break at no more than 6lbs. The sealing of reserves is optional. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 235 #32 November 5, 2006 QuoteI guess your cup is always half empty As you say, whatever the cause of the ill fitting cable it was replaced with no fuss and in a timely fashion. THANKS! No, I think Kevin just realizes that Sunpath makes skydiving equipment that needs to be built correctly at the risk of injury or death. They're not a bunch of kids making macaroni necklaces who get "a big thank you and praise" when they finally get it right."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #33 November 5, 2006 QuoteI recommend never having Sunrise Rigging assemble and pack your brand new wings...in fear of them not catching something like that on harness construction. or any other place as well. I had my container modified (closing loop mod), cleaned and a flap replaced, and repacked. Rigger doing the work damaged the reserve risers to the point of being unairworthy. Was only found after the next repack. After the manufacturer replaced the harness asked if i wanted a free repack, I decided i could not trust them Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 235 #34 November 6, 2006 QuoteQuoteI guess your cup is always half empty As you say, whatever the cause of the ill fitting cable it was replaced with no fuss and in a timely fashion. THANKS! No, I think Kevin just realizes that Sunrise makes skydiving equipment that needs to be built correctly at the risk of injury or death. They're not a bunch of kids making macaroni necklaces who get "a big thank you and praise" when they finally get it right. edited"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crazydiver 0 #35 November 6, 2006 Quote As for sealing: QuoteOnly Riggers, Advanced Packers and packers with the appropriately endorsed packing certificate may seal reserves and must use a method acceptable to the BPA Riggers Sub-Committee. The rigger/packer should use a method of identification on their seal that is identifiable to him/her. Seal thread must be a thread manufactured to break at no more than 6lbs. The sealing of reserves is optional. Are you from England? This is something I didn't know before now since your profile says nothing. Also...regardless...the rigger must follow the manufacturers directions as well...which states in step 16 of the packing directions for their reserves.. "16. Seal the reserve container and log the work done on the packing data card and in your rigger’s logbook." Cheers, Travis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 99 #36 November 6, 2006 If the laws in England state that sealing of the reserve is optional, then that would take precedence over a general requirement to follow mfg instructions.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crazydiver 0 #37 November 6, 2006 QuoteIf the laws in England state that sealing of the reserve is optional, then that would take precedence over a general requirement to follow mfg instructions. I disagree. If the federal requirements mandate following the manufacturer instructions it does take precidence. If the manufacturer said the sealing was optional or didn't mention in in their manual...then it would be optional...but since its in the manufacturer instructions, it is mandated, it simply isn't set forth by the government. Cheers, Travis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 99 #38 November 6, 2006 QuoteQuoteIf the laws in England state that sealing of the reserve is optional, then that would take precedence over a general requirement to follow mfg instructions. I disagree. If the federal requirements mandate following the manufacturer instructions it does take precidence. If the manufacturer said the sealing was optional or didn't mention in in their manual...then it would be optional...but since its in the manufacturer instructions, it is mandated, it simply isn't set forth by the government. No, without the law requiring a rigger to follow the mfg instructions, everything would be optional. If the laws of England specifically allow that the seal may be omitted, then that supersedes a general requirement to follow mfg instructions. I don't know what the English law is and I am not a lawyer, but I don't see how you could see it any other way, and apparently so do English authorities, because it is common for it to be omitted, correct?People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scoop 0 #39 November 6, 2006 Who cares, I mean really. Its not illegal and not having a seal isn't going to hinder the performance in any way. EDIT: I've added a poll for UK skydivers HERE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cpoxon 0 #40 November 6, 2006 QuoteQuoteIf the laws in England state that sealing of the reserve is optional, then that would take precedence over a general requirement to follow mfg instructions. I disagree. If the federal requirements mandate following the manufacturer instructions it does take precidence. FAR Sec. 105.49 Foreign parachutists and equipment QuoteThe reserve parachute must be packed in accordance with the foreign parachutist's civil aviation authority requirements, by a certificated parachute rigger, or any other person acceptable to the Administrator. I guess it depends on the nationality of the manufacturer and jumper of the equipment? It's a bit like the argument about foreign jumpers with TSO'd equipment (or part TSOd, like the container but not the reserve)?Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 99 #41 November 6, 2006 I thought the issue was what is legal in England. I would expect the seal to be required for a visiting foreign jumper.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,379 #42 November 6, 2006 QuoteQuoteIf the laws in England state that sealing of the reserve is optional, then that would take precedence over a general requirement to follow mfg instructions. I disagree. If the federal requirements mandate following the manufacturer instructions it does take precidence. If the manufacturer said the sealing was optional or didn't mention in in their manual...then it would be optional...but since its in the manufacturer instructions, it is mandated, it simply isn't set forth by the government. What do you mean? You've just established he's in England, so federal requirements are totally irrelevant. Why would the FAA be able to tell us what to do?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crazydiver 0 #43 November 6, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteIf the laws in England state that sealing of the reserve is optional, then that would take precedence over a general requirement to follow mfg instructions. I disagree. If the federal requirements mandate following the manufacturer instructions it does take precidence. If the manufacturer said the sealing was optional or didn't mention in in their manual...then it would be optional...but since its in the manufacturer instructions, it is mandated, it simply isn't set forth by the government. What do you mean? You've just established he's in England, so federal requirements are totally irrelevant. Why would the FAA be able to tell us what to do? England has a government as well. We're not the only country with a civilized governing body. When I said federal requirements, I mean requirements by the government. Cheers, Travis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crazydiver 0 #44 November 6, 2006 QuoteI thought the issue was what is legal in England. I would expect the seal to be required for a visiting foreign jumper. It sounds like I shall stand corrected. I will add, however, that it really surprises me that because the manufacturer mandates it that it does not take precedence for legal and for liability issues. In the FAR's in the US, it does mandate the use of a seal, but even if it didn't, because the manufacturer does, a seal would be required. Cheers, Travis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 613 #45 November 6, 2006 May I input a parellel from the Canadian Air Regulations? They state that a Canadian pilot - operating a Canadian-registered airplane - overseas must follow CARS except where CARS are repugnant to local practice. That also applies to Canadian Air Maintenance Engineers repairing Canadian-registered airplanes operated overseas. Which means that a Canadian AME - working overseas - will follow CARS 99% of the time. Ergo, a rigger packing for a Brit should follow the rig manufacturer's manual until the Brit complains. For example, I repack reserves for a couple of Brits that live near Pitt Meadows. I seal their reserves until they complain. Both of them think the BPA rule is a bit silly. Especially when you consider that the controversy started when some Wally sealed a reserve with nylon E thread (8 pounds) instead of the proper cotton witness/safety/sealing thread (4.5 pounds). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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