turtlespeed 212 #26 March 27, 2007 Quoteall these boogies happened at DZ's ...maybe we should ban DZ's? Discuss. And they happened in the air - maybe we can ban AIR!I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #27 March 27, 2007 QuoteThe sad thing is this thread will not get the attention it deserves Especially now that some greenie decided to move the thread into the Bonfire. I guess boobies will be next ... Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ORANGENBLUE 0 #28 March 27, 2007 Why? because you like boogies. This is analogous to the swoopng issue for some people. 270s in traffic kill people, boogies with crowded skies kill people no 270s in traffic = not killing people no boogies = not killing people I think some times it's not as easy to play devils advocate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #29 March 27, 2007 QuoteQuotePoint is, boogies are increasing the number of fatalities occuring every year. so does skydiving. That. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lilDevil 2 #30 March 27, 2007 QuoteDiscuss. How about cars, alcahol, drugs,smoking, terrorists oh yeh and people !``````````````````````````````````` " Cant keep a good woman down " Angels have wings, but devils can fly ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #31 March 27, 2007 People don't kill people - Guns and 270's do.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #32 March 27, 2007 QuoteWhy? because you like boogies. This is analogous to the swoopng issue for some people. 270s in traffic kill people, boogies with crowded skies kill people no 270s in traffic = not killing people no boogies = not killing people I think some times it's not as easy to play devils advocate. When was the last time a skydiver at a boogie killed a skydiver not at the boogie? One can avoid being killed at a boogie by not being at the boogie. I suppose one could avoid being killed in a pattern by not being in the pattern, but I'd posit that avoiding all patterns would be a poor way of continuing to skydive and survive. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #33 March 27, 2007 QuotePeople don't kill people - Guns and 270's do. And boogies ... don't forget the boobies and boogies. They definitely kill people ... along with the guns and the 270s. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ORANGENBLUE 0 #34 March 27, 2007 QuotePeople don't kill people - Guns and 270's do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piratemike 0 #35 March 27, 2007 Your kidding right? People kill themselfs for the most part. There are a few counter examples, but not too many. If your really worried about getting killed at a boogie, there are a few simple things you can do different to not die. mainly not landing 3 feet from the hangar where everybody else does sure does lessen your risk. Boogies shouldn't be banned, particullary if you want skydiving to continue as a sport. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DeNReN 0 #36 March 27, 2007 QuoteQuoteThe sad thing is this thread will not get the attention it deserves Especially now that some greenie decided to move the thread into the Bonfire. I guess boobies will be next ... If the thread was started with a sincere title it would have had a chance to survive...some greenie was absoultly right in moving this thread...I personally thought it would be deleted givin the agnst this week with SDA's new rules being brough forward. Safety at boogies is a serious topic best addressed in the safety and training forum by someone not out to just make a point of there displeasure with swoopers being targeted by some safety nazies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brettski74 0 #37 March 27, 2007 QuoteBoogies are statistically higher risk events. Boogies are statistically higher fun events, too. Last time I looked, the main reason most people are in this sport is for the fun. On a more practical note, how exactly are you planning to "ban" boogies. In europe, you'd need to get agreement from how many different countries and national organisations on exactly what a boogie is and how to ban it. North America is not much better, since you have events all the way from central america north that are routinely attended by north american jumpers. Assuming that you even get that agreement, a boogie is just a bunch of jumpers getting together in one place and doing a bunch of jumps. Does this mean we ban visiting other dropzones? There are many aspects of this that might be similar to a normal weekend at a busy turbine dropzone. Boogies often have some skills camps or other training and such organized, perhaps with skilled coaches that the attendees might otherwise never have the chance to work with. So we want to ban training people to acquire better freefall or canopy skills? How will that reduce the risks of future fatalities? The only boogie I've been to so far gave me exposure to some of the best coaches in the sport, something that I might not achieve otherwise. QuoteThe sad thing is this thread will not get the attention it deserves because it attacks something people approve of. Banning boogies would be a mindless, kneejerk reaction. It would be much more productive to look at the causes of the accidents and modify our behaviours when jumping at boogies to mitigate the risks we identify. The sad thing is that discussions like this might take people's time away from doing something truly productive in reducing the risks of future incidents. Boogies are not the problem. It's what people do at boogies that's the problem. We don't stop driving because of a spate of road fatalities nor do we ban freeways because they happened on large dual carriageway roads. We investigate the accidents and where applicable come up with new traffic laws, enforcement methods and safety standards to target the causes of such accidents. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #38 March 27, 2007 Hopefully you realize you're telling someone with 5000+ skydives on "how not to die" in this sport. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rainbo 0 #39 March 27, 2007 You know, people are always trying to tell me the same thing, and I keep trying to prove them wrong. I just don't know how to do it properly.Rainbo TheSpeedTriple - Speed is everything "Blessed are those who can give without remembering, and take without forgetting." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ORANGENBLUE 0 #40 March 27, 2007 replace boogie with swooping in your post and you will see the flawed logic in both situation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
guppie01 0 #41 March 27, 2007 QuoteHopefully you realize you're telling someone with 5000+ skydives on "how not to die" in this sport. psssssssshhhhh it's only JP.... g"Let's do something romantic this Saturday... how bout we bust out the restraints?" Raddest Ho this side of Jersey #1 - MISS YOU OMG, is she okay? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #42 March 27, 2007 QuoteBanning boogies would be a mindless, kneejerk reaction. It would be much more productive to look at the causes of the accidents and modify our behaviours when jumping at boogies to mitigate the risks we identify. The sad thing is that discussions like this might take people's time away from doing something truly productive in reducing the risks of future incidents. Holy #### batman, for a second I thought you were talking about how redicilous it is to bad 270s while thinking 180s were safer. But then I realized you thought this thread was actually about something else. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #43 March 27, 2007 Quotereplace boogie with swooping in your post and you will see the flawed logic in both situation. Smiley you beat me to the punch. PS: I won't be giving you the luxury of beating me in a swoop comp this coming season ever since I moved away from the "Wet" PAC-NW. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lilDevil 2 #44 March 27, 2007 QuoteYour kidding right? People kill themselfs for the most part. There are a few counter examples, but not too many. If your really worried about getting killed at a boogie, there are a few simple things you can do different to not die. mainly not landing 3 feet from the hangar where everybody else does sure does lessen your risk. Boogies shouldn't be banned, particullary if you want skydiving to continue as a sport. Bingo !``````````````````````````````````` " Cant keep a good woman down " Angels have wings, but devils can fly ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brettski74 0 #45 March 27, 2007 Quoteno 270s in traffic = not killing people no boogies = not killing people This post illustrates my point exactly. The number of incidents due to swooping in the pattern, particularly from 270 hook turns suggests that this behaviour produces too great a risk of incident, injury or worse. The response, however, is not ban swooping or ban 270s, its ban 270s when and where they're not appropriate. When driving a car down a suburban road, due to the fact that there may be people around, kids playing and lots of property that could be damaged by an out of control car, it's been deemed inappropriate to drive at 100km/h in such areas. When driving on the highway, however, it's appropriate. In the same way, in Australia, there are places called "School Zones", which impose a lower speed limit at the times in the morning and afternoon when kids are being dropped off and picked up from school. Nobody said that you can't drive at 100km/h, just that you can't do it at times or places where that may pose too great a risk to yourself and others. Incidents at boogies happen most often due to someone doing something silly and/or more risky than they should be in the conditions. Accordingly, the remedy should be to address those behaviours, not try to ban the whole shindig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #46 March 27, 2007 The Dublin boogie didn't kill anyone--an arrogant, selfish son-of-a-bitch whose need for thrills outweighed his desire to not put his fellow jumpers at risk killed himself and another jumper, though. There was no widespread lax attitude toward safety there--the boogie was fine. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #47 March 27, 2007 Quotereplace boogie with swooping in your post and you will see the flawed logic in both situation. Did you notice the difference I pointed out between the two situations? Most people who die at boogies only kill themselves and maybe others who chose to attend the same boogie. There's not a sudden rash of people killing themselves at boogies and taking non-attendees with them. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #48 March 27, 2007 My post in another thread http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2725102;#2725102Performance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brettski74 0 #49 March 27, 2007 QuoteHoly #### batman, for a second I thought you were talking about how redicilous it is to bad 270s while thinking 180s were safer. That's a topic that I don't claim to have anywhere near the level of expertise to comment on. However, if that's how you feel, then maybe you should take it up with Bryan, as he's already said he's happy to ban 180s also if you feel they're just as dangerous. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #50 March 27, 2007 QuoteThe Dublin boogie didn't kill anyone--an arrogant, selfish son-of-a-bitch whose need for thrills outweighed his desire to not put his fellow jumpers at risk killed himself and another jumper, though. No, a skydiver and a good man made a mistake and used bad judgement - that's undeniable. I'd venture a guess though that Danny (and Bob for that matter) accomplished more in their lives than most of us could ever dream. For the sport, for others and for their own personal goals. While his mistakes were undeniable (and I call him out on it daily), your comment attempts to gloss over a great man who offered everyone who'd let him everything he had. Your comment's reflection on what exactly you have to offer though.....that I'm not so sure about. Feel free to call his actions into question, but to call his character into question will meet with the highest resistance from me. IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
