ridestrong 1 #51 November 13, 2009 Wow! Good post... Just the idea of having to chop used to completely freak me out. I watched numerous videos on youtube of malfunctions and cut aways. While not practical experience it made me feel like I'd be more comfortable reaching for the cut away handle if the situation arises. I also have not received thorough training on canopy transfer but will definitely ask more about it now. Thanks for posting.*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.* ----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.---- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #52 November 13, 2009 Quote Not noticing big hole in canopy- no problem to commentatorsCatching freebag- problem to commentators Think it gets a mention because catching a freebag(or really more so a canopy), seems harmless enough to some people, but people die doing it. Last fatality was a really good guy, young, amazing canopy pilot and soon to be married. It's just a pointless way to get killed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,772 #53 November 13, 2009 >Think it gets a mention because catching a freebag(or really more so a >canopy), seems harmless enough to some people, but people die doing >it. Yep. We did it a lot during some rig testing until one day one of the jumpers had a really low cutaway. "Wow, this is really stupid" we suddenly realized. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flipper 0 #54 November 13, 2009 Quote Oh and about canopy transfer... that should be taught to students. Do not cut away below 1000 feet. Disconnect RSL and pull reserve. That is FJC stuff people!!!! Is that what you were taught on your FJC ? Has anybody here carried out a canopy transfer ? or seen one ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #55 November 13, 2009 Quote Quote Oh and about canopy transfer... that should be taught to students. Do not cut away below 1000 feet. Disconnect RSL and pull reserve. That is FJC stuff people!!!! Is that what you were taught on your FJC ? Has anybody here carried out a canopy transfer ? or seen one ? there's a lot of shit swung around here in this thread.. “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flipper 0 #56 November 13, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Oh and about canopy transfer... that should be taught to students. Do not cut away below 1000 feet. Disconnect RSL and pull reserve. That is FJC stuff people!!!! Is that what you were taught on your FJC ? Has anybody here carried out a canopy transfer ? or seen one ? there's a lot of shit swung around here in this thread.. My understanding is that a 'canopy transfer' was an option when using a round reserve Never heard it taught as part of a FJC If you know different then please post Cheers F. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #57 November 13, 2009 that's what i mean; i've never heard of "canopy transfers" in my FJC either! and that wasnt too long ago.. attempting to land an obviously heavily damaged canopy is nothing but pure STUPD! and there's a perfect examply of people breaking themselves with "only snapped lines" in GSD, posted within days of this nonsense here.. the first part of what we quoted, the part from kmills, is especially scary, she's a freshly licensed AFFI! seems like another perfect example of "i'm an internet-skygod and know the FUCK BETTER than you do!".. “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
topdocker 0 #58 November 13, 2009 Quote that's what i mean; i've never heard of "canopy transfers" in my FJC either! and that wasnt too long ago.. attempting to land an obviously heavily damaged canopy is nothing but pure STUPD! and there's a perfect examply of people breaking themselves with "only snapped lines" in GSD, posted within days of this nonsense here.. the first part of what we quoted, the part from kmills, is especially scary, she's a freshly licensed AFFI! seems like another perfect example of "i'm an internet-skygod and know the FUCK BETTER than you do!".. VB, sounds like the pot calling the kettle black... A few hundred jumps in a few years, but several thousand posts to DZ.com!!! Over the years I have seen all sorts of damaged canopies landed safely and without any problem for the jumpers. Here, we only get the anecdotal evidence, but not actual numbers, and in a time-compressed fashion. My story is from over seven years ago. I think if more jumpers are getting hurt landing damaged canopies it could be two factors: smaller mains in general and PLF's are not taught like they used to be. Just my humble opinion. topJump more, post less! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flipper 0 #59 November 13, 2009 Over the years I have seen all sorts of damaged canopies landed safely and without any problem for the jumpers. Here, we only get the anecdotal evidence, but not actual numbers, and in a time-compressed fashion. My story is from over seven years ago. Quote Yes - I think this happens alot more than most would think, quite often the damage being noticed after the landing .. have seen this several times myself *** I think if more jumpers are getting hurt landing damaged canopies it could be two factors: smaller mains in general and PLF's are not taught like they used to be. Excellent point ! My worry in this tread is that the idea of a ' canopy transfer' becomes an option that might get used resulting in injury or worse - Performing a canopy transfer using square canopies is a malfuction called ' two out ' - which I think would be a dumb fuck move to induce Please if you know different please post Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypuppy 1 #60 November 13, 2009 Good decision.If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #61 November 13, 2009 you with your limited number of posts on here obviously dont know i'm haning around the bonfire mostly.. but yea, thanks for proving my point! “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
topdocker 0 #62 November 13, 2009 QuoteMy worry in this tread is that the idea of a ' canopy transfer' becomes an option that might get used resulting in injury or worse - Performing a canopy transfer using square canopies is a malfuction called ' two out ' - which I think would be a dumb fuck move to induce Please if you know different please post I see a canopy transfer as a low resort, not something to do in normal circumstances. I.e. dude crashes into my canopy at 800 ft., wraps up, and there is no way we are both going to survive landing under his main, nor can I cutaway and hope for a reserve in time. I'd fire my reserve and figure out the cutaway point as I got inflation. I really hope to avoid having to make that decision, however. I cannot recall a jumper doing a canopy transfer in the last few years. With the advent of square reserves, audible altimeters, skyhooks, and AAD's, there seems to be less of a need for it. Especially skyhook, that really gets the stuff out there fast! (Not to be read as an endorsement of one manufacturer over another, but the idea behind it!) Also, the spin that is part of most canopy malfunctions today is so rapid, it makes "transferring" more unreliable, in my opinion. topJump more, post less! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiver604 0 #63 November 13, 2009 I sent an email to an instuctor that I know about canopy transfer to get his opinion, note this instructor has been in the sport almost 20 years, has a ton of experience jumping squares and rounds and has my full trust. Here's the answer I got back. Canopy transfer: One chute is open (although presumably damaged or something), open the other chute, cutaway the first while the second is opening and isn't yet close to the first one. This is as opposed to cutting away and going to the reserve. More popular back with round reserves, as a round & square were less likely to interfere with each other than 2 squares. A canopy transfer is sort of one of those advanced techniques that people speculate about but nobody actually does. Not even sure if it is taught anywere formally (PIM or SIM???). The term is usually reserved for intentionally opening a 2nd canopy, rather than simply chopping one canopy of a two-out. Stuff to watch out for: - The usual two-out stuff - making sure the canopies won't entangle if one is chopped. RSL disconnection also usually advised to reduce snag hazard. - Make sure the second chute is good before going to it. Eg, someone pulls but AAD fires, reserve falls out of container but is trailing behind in its bag. Either try to fly gently and not let it pop open, or wait for it to actually start inflating properly before transferring. Wouldn't want to chop and discover that the reserve is fouled from tumbling through its own lines somehow when it dropped out of the container. A little more research and I came up with an article in a book by Poynter and Turoff that I just got (see attached) Honestly with a square reserve this is not something I would try unless I ABSOLUTELY had too and even then I'd be getting the high speed rosary out. "The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it." - Michelangelo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flipper 0 #64 November 13, 2009 Like yourself and Topdocker has stated / mentioned ... this sort of action is pretty much a last chance / resort and not in anyway a 'standard' responce to a problem with your main Thanks for the information and apologese for steering the thread a little off course Flipper PS ... In my opinion the OP did the right thing :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #65 November 13, 2009 QuoteLike yourself and Topdocker has stated / mentioned ... this sort of action is pretty much a last chance / resort and not in anyway a 'standard' responce to a problem with your main Thanks for the information and apologese for steering the thread a little off course Flipper PS ... In my opinion the OP did the right thing :) just like him“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #66 November 13, 2009 Yeah, I started the use of the term "canopy transfer" in this thread and what I meant by it was: Get reserve out, downplane my fucked up main, chop it. I didn't post that at the time because it's sketchy, hasn't been done much and I don't want new jumpers getting the idea of doing it if they're under a perfectly landable side by side when they get a two out at some point. How much would that suck? Dude gets a two out, gets nervous about it, remembers reading about canopy transfering on dz.com, chops, his main risers foul his reserve and he goes in. So I posted the typical "get more shit out" explanation which is a no brainer if you're at 200ft and find yourself under a main that won't land you in one piece. That's something which I hope is taught in every FJC. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kmills0705 0 #67 November 13, 2009 QuoteYeah, I started the use of the term "canopy transfer" in this thread and what I meant by it was: Get reserve out, downplane my fucked up main, chop it. I didn't post that at the time because it's sketchy, hasn't been done much and I don't want new jumpers getting the idea of doing it if they're under a perfectly landable side by side when they get a two out at some point. How much would that suck? Dude gets a two out, gets nervous about it, remembers reading about canopy transfering on dz.com, chops, his main risers foul his reserve and he goes in. So I posted the typical "get more shit out" explanation which is a no brainer if you're at 200ft and find yourself under a main that won't land you in one piece. That's something which I hope is taught in every FJC. Wow.... gotta love dz.com. Thanks Mark. Exactly what I was saying. Below 1000' no student should EVER cut away and if a canopy is questionable on landing it at that point you should disconnect RSL and pull reserve. VB: If you are questioning that and my ability to be an AFF I then you are also questioning the most highly rated I/E's as well such as Bram Clement.Kim Mills USPA D21696 Tandem I, AFF I and Static Line I Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kmills0705 0 #68 November 13, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Oh and about canopy transfer... that should be taught to students. Do not cut away below 1000 feet. Disconnect RSL and pull reserve. That is FJC stuff people!!!! Is that what you were taught on your FJC ? Has anybody here carried out a canopy transfer ? or seen one ? there's a lot of shit swung around here in this thread.. Hey VB... glad you feel so strongly about giving advice without any training as an instructor... from the USPA SIM: d. If it is too low for a safe cutaway (below 1,000 feet) and the canopies are uncontrollable, both jumpers should deploy their reserves. This is in reference to a canopy collision... but yes. Below 1,000 feet and you suddenly have a damaged canopy, you would disconnect your RSL and pull your reserve. You want to challenge that. Seriously? What would your advice be?Kim Mills USPA D21696 Tandem I, AFF I and Static Line I Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kmills0705 0 #69 November 13, 2009 Quote that's what i mean; i've never heard of "canopy transfers" in my FJC either! and that wasnt too long ago.. attempting to land an obviously heavily damaged canopy is nothing but pure STUPD! and there's a perfect examply of people breaking themselves with "only snapped lines" in GSD, posted within days of this nonsense here.. the first part of what we quoted, the part from kmills, is especially scary, she's a freshly licensed AFFI! seems like another perfect example of "i'm an internet-skygod and know the FUCK BETTER than you do!".. Wow, nice fucking attack asshole.Kim Mills USPA D21696 Tandem I, AFF I and Static Line I Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiver604 0 #70 November 13, 2009 Everyone!!!Thanks for all the input, at least now I know I have a few more options available to me if I get into trouble. Blues Chris "The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it." - Michelangelo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #71 November 13, 2009 QuoteQuoteYeah, I started the use of the term "canopy transfer" in this thread and what I meant by it was: Get reserve out, downplane my fucked up main, chop it. I didn't post that at the time because it's sketchy, hasn't been done much and I don't want new jumpers getting the idea of doing it if they're under a perfectly landable side by side when they get a two out at some point. How much would that suck? Dude gets a two out, gets nervous about it, remembers reading about canopy transfering on dz.com, chops, his main risers foul his reserve and he goes in. So I posted the typical "get more shit out" explanation which is a no brainer if you're at 200ft and find yourself under a main that won't land you in one piece. That's something which I hope is taught in every FJC. Wow.... gotta love dz.com. Thanks Mark. Exactly what I was saying. Below 1000' no student should EVER cut away and if a canopy is questionable on landing it at that point you should disconnect RSL and pull reserve. VB: If you are questioning that and my ability to be an AFF I then you are also questioning the most highly rated I/E's as well such as Bram Clement. look, milli, in all friendliness: you wouldnt become an AFFI here with 500 jumps in over a decade; in fact, they wouldnt even let you do tandems..“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #72 November 13, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Quote Oh and about canopy transfer... that should be taught to students. Do not cut away below 1000 feet. Disconnect RSL and pull reserve. That is FJC stuff people!!!! Is that what you were taught on your FJC ? Has anybody here carried out a canopy transfer ? or seen one ? there's a lot of shit swung around here in this thread.. Hey VB... glad you feel so strongly about giving advice without any training as an instructor... from the USPA SIM: d. If it is too low for a safe cutaway (below 1,000 feet) and the canopies are uncontrollable, both jumpers should deploy their reserves. This is in reference to a canopy collision... but yes. Below 1,000 feet and you suddenly have a damaged canopy, you would disconnect your RSL and pull your reserve. You want to challenge that. Seriously? What would your advice be? if you havent figured by now, no collision, a damaged canopy on opening, somewhere around 3000ft; plenty of time even for the slowest person to figure something was wrong..“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #73 November 13, 2009 Quote Quote that's what i mean; i've never heard of "canopy transfers" in my FJC either! and that wasnt too long ago.. attempting to land an obviously heavily damaged canopy is nothing but pure STUPD! and there's a perfect examply of people breaking themselves with "only snapped lines" in GSD, posted within days of this nonsense here.. the first part of what we quoted, the part from kmills, is especially scary, she's a freshly licensed AFFI! seems like another perfect example of "i'm an internet-skygod and know the FUCK BETTER than you do!".. Wow, nice fucking attack asshole. lame; try again after your holiday!“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #74 November 13, 2009 Quote Everyone!!!Thanks for all the input, at least now I know I have a few more options available to me if I get into trouble. Yeah, as you'll notice from this thread in some situations everyone has a different opinion on which option is the best option What I liked about the OP though isn't so much his choice, it was thinking things through. He recognized a problem, formed a plan, gave himself outs(if it doesn't pass a control test, get rid of it) and he executed. To me, that's why he did the correct thing. If it didn't work out, well, it's not guaranteed to work out even if you do everything 100% right. You make your choices, hopefully sound ones, and roll the dice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiver604 0 #75 November 13, 2009 Yep, and that's what I got out of this threat, re-enforcement of the control checks process when the canopy is opened, assess the situation, plan some outs and act accordingly. What I like about these threads is I'm always learning something new, as with anything that little tidbit of advice or information no matter how obscure could make a huge difference in the outcome of different situations. Chris "The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it." - Michelangelo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
This Site Is For Sale
