Sabre 1 Vs Sabre 2

[pokie 0]

Owning a Sabre 2 and going back to the Sabre 1 as i have, i recently spent some time on a pilot. I found it a much MUCH!!!!!!!! better canopy, nicer to fly and pack the openings were a dream! Look wider then PD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Step out my friend and you will see
Like those who've gone before
and Once you're out, your wings will sprout
Like the eagle and you will soar!!

[Elisha 1]

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I'd also like to point out that the Sabre2 is a more advanced canopy than a Sabre1 in it's handling. I'd even venture to say that it is tuned to be the highest performance in its class (comparable canopies being Safire2 and Pilot, amongst others).

Turns are faster on the Sabre2 over the original Sabre, and the recovery arc is also different. Lightly loaded (<1.1) I don't know, but moderately loaded (1.3, 1.4 say) the Sabre2 is really quite an aggressive canopy.

Would you say the order from most to least aggressive would be Sabre2, Safire2, Pilot, Sabre1 from the above mentioned canopies?

I've flown all 4, but of various sizes. Pilot: 150, 140 and 132. Safire2-149. Sabre2: 190 and 135 and Sabre1: 170, 150 and 120 (just bought the 120 and will probably be flying it for a while). The organizer of the RW jumps I was doing threw 12 lbs of lead on me while I was demoing the Sabre2-135 and it seemed rather sporty. I couldn't do pullups on the front risers on final like with Sabre1-150 that I had put around 90 of my last 100 or so jumps on - defintely had to respect that Sabre2-135 more.

[Elisha 1]

WHATEVA! WHATEVA!

I was rather surprised at how sharp the turns were on the Pilot-132...maybe too fast when I buried a toggle up high. It had been several months, but I didn't remember them being so fast on the 140 and 150. On final though, I just felt the Pilot was, well, flat...both figuratively and literally (as in glide) except for the turns.

[jakee 1,255]

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Would you say the order from most to least aggressive would be Sabre2, Safire2, Pilot, Sabre1 from the above mentioned canopies?

I haven't flown the Pilot but I would agree with that order for the other three (all flown in 150). I would say the Sabre2 is the most reponsive, fastest turning and longest diving. Having said that, once I got used to the long toggle stroke and the amount of input needed to really throw it around I absolutely loved the way the Safire2 felt in the air (and the flare power). Once I get the cash together I'd be more than happy with either to replace my old Sabre. It'll probably come down to which I can find first in the classifieds.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Pendragon 1]

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Would you say the order from most to least aggressive would be Sabre2, Safire2, Pilot, Sabre1 from the above mentioned canopies?

From a mixture of my own and others' experiences, I would concur with that.

Seriously though, I really don't think a Sabre2 at 1.3/1.4 is for an inexperienced canopy pilot, whilst a Pilot is far more forgiving.

People like to apply jump #/wingloading charts all the time; the planform makes a huge difference IMHO, and mitigates some of this.

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

[mjosparky 3]

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mjo,
Can you explain "better penetration" but a flatter glide? To me, a flatter glide would imply less penetration, not better. If winds were such that I was barely moving forward or standing still, I was told that fronts (risers) would help penetrate to get some progress.

Those are PD's words not mine. But by pulling down on the front risers you may go faster but you are going down faster not accross the ground faster.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[jheadley 0]

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mjo,
Can you explain "better penetration" but a flatter glide? To me, a flatter glide would imply less penetration, not better. If winds were such that I was barely moving forward or standing still, I was told that fronts (risers) would help penetrate to get some progress.

Those are PD's words not mine. But by pulling down on the front risers you may go faster but you are going down faster not accross the ground faster.

Don't front risers increase your foward speed a little too? I know it makes your glide ratio more steep, and you'll be going down faster, but I thought it also did make foward speed faster. When you are doing CRW and are above and behind the canopy you want to pin, you dive at them with front risers, making you go "down" and "foward", right? I've only done a few CRW jumps but that is how a CRW dog explained it to me.

[Pendragon 1]

You're right to think that forward speed increases - but the way parachutes are trimmed, "glide" (as it would be in nil wind conditions) falls right off. You really degrade the parachute's performance. Best speed for glide depends on the wing's polar curve and the component of wind velocity in the direction you are travelling

Example 1: if you're facing into wind and wind speed = canopy flying speed at full drive, you would be going straight down. If you pull on the front risers a little. descent rate increases but you make some forward penetration. By definition, you have just improved your glide.

Example 2: if you're on a long spot but going slightly downwind back to the DZ you would want to stay in the moving airmass as long as possible, as the wind will carry you back to the DZ. Consequently, rear-risers (or a little brake) is going to give you the best glide as it brings the canopy closer to min sink.

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

[Elisha 1]

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Example 1: if you're facing into wind and wind speed = canopy flying speed at full drive, you would be going straight down. If you pull on the front risers a little. descent rate increases but you make some forward penetration. By definition, you have just improved your glide.

Example 2: if you're on a long spot but going slightly downwind back to the DZ you would want to stay in the moving airmass as long as possible, as the wind will carry you back to the DZ. Consequently, rear-risers (or a little brake) is going to give you the best glide as it brings the canopy closer to min sink.

Thank you. These are the two situations which I've always had questions about.

[Pendragon 1]

If you're interested, look at:

http://www.pilotnotes.co.uk/Flight_theory2_HTML/flight_screen.htm

...under the "Drag" and "Polar Curves" chapters

On the polar curve: don't worry about lift/sink, but draw lines from the origin (nil wind), -10 mph (tailwind) and +10 mph (headwind) and see where the intersect with the curve. Min sink is the highest point on the curve. What you'll find is that max glide is ALWAYS faster than min sink.

Also, there comes a point on a parachute's polar curve that it goes pretty much vertical (small increase in airspeed dramatically increases sink rate) - bit like pulling down hard on front risers to the point you don't get anything out of the wing. You still end up going straight down, and not improving glide.

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

[mjosparky 3]

Yea, what he said.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Sabre1Lucke 0]

I owned a Sabre1 150 and a Sabre1 135.
Both canopies were great, nice openings (a little bit fast but never hard) and the flew very nice.

While I was flying that Sabre1 135 I also did about 30 demo-jumps on the Sabre2 135.
I did this because I wanted to compaire both canopies in the same size and wingload.

The first thing I noticed was that the openings of the Sabre2 were very soft with a much longer snivel. Almost like a Stiletto but without the nervous reaction on bodyposition.
The flying-angle from the Sabre1 is a little bit steeper but noticeable. This will make it easier to get back from a long spot.
Reaction on toggle input was about the same on both canopies.
As for the landings,.... The Sabre2 rocks!!
Very nice on frontriser and a lot of flair-power at the end. It dives more the the Sabre1 which makes that this canopy is very nice to swoop.
I you are more into traditional landings you will not be disappointed, it's an easy to land canopy.

The canopy was loaded at 1.47

Hope this helps

[Jiggs 0]

Go with the Sabre 2 if you can afford it

I own a Sabre 1 and a Sabre 2 and hands down my preferred is the Sabre2. I have around 800 or so jumps on the Sabre1 and less than 50 with the S2. I would echo exactly what Tonto has stated and say that the S2 is a step up in all areas. Nothing wrong with an original Sabre but if you can afford the dollars get the new one.

- Fantastic all round canopy and you can wring quite a bit of performance out of it .

"Don't blame malice for what stupidity can explain."

"In our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart and in our despair, against our will comes wisdom" - Aeschylus