jumper03 0 #1 June 27, 2006 So I'm debating - I just opened up a dolphin container with a PD-176 in it. The reserve is in great shape with one exception - the previous rigger let the line stows get caught between the velcro closures. So on all the lines at two places, individual strands are pulled out, loops everywhere and overall fuzzy in appearance. I eyeballed everyone, massaged back in all I could - I didn't see any broken strands but there is still fuzz- no where near as bad, but still... Okay to pack? Send to PD? I'm thinking okay to pack since no strands are broken but it's better safe than sorry. I'd love to hear opinions from other riggers. I'm searching Poynters now for any insight. Thanks to all, S.Scars remind us that the past is real Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #2 June 27, 2006 It really hard to make that call without seeing the lines. My gut feeling it to send it back to PD for their opinion. My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #3 June 27, 2006 Dacron or spectra lines? tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumper03 0 #4 June 27, 2006 QuoteDacron or spectra lines? t sorry - that would have been good info - they are dacron linesScars remind us that the past is real Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #5 June 27, 2006 Steve, This is my biggest soapbox with PD Reserves. First let me point out they are great reserves, BUT..... The use of uncoated lines on their reserves sucks. I have replaced numerous lines over the years. Probably too many to count. The damage is not limited to just "packing error" damage. It also can be damaged during deployment if the velcro seperates a little and allows the lines to drag across the hook Velcro. Coated lines have better protection against hook Velcro. They also stow easier, neater, and are basically just better and safer than uncoated 725 Spectra. I can not remember ever having to replace a coated line on a reserve from velcro damage. 1.They fixed the UST issue I complained about for so long. That issue consisted of a single bartack on the USTs. they were stacked and sewn, never finger trapped. 2.They changed the Packing procedures to allow PRO packing. This leaves them with the only "issue" left with their reserves in my eyes. I hope they ( John) change their mind(s) and someday put coated lines on their reserves. Peace out, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #6 June 27, 2006 What is "UST"?People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fcajump 153 #7 June 27, 2006 QuoteSteve, The use of uncoated lines on their reserves sucks. Amen!! It's about the only reason I am considering alternatives for my new reserve. When discussing reserves in general, this and use of a contrasting thread are the two issues that seem so easy to fix, and such a pain in the field when the mfg's "choose poorly". Just my $.02 JimAlways remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #8 June 27, 2006 Do you know what mfgs use coated lines? Do you think PD would need to re-test if they decided to apply coated lines?People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumper03 0 #9 June 27, 2006 so what would you think of 'coating' them with beeswax to smooth out the fuzzies on this problem canopy I have? I can't find anywhere that strictly forbids that and I know it's an old trick for fuzzy lines on mains.Scars remind us that the past is real Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #10 June 27, 2006 Quote Do you know what mfgs use coated lines? Most all of them except PD. Quote Do you think PD would need to re-test if they decided to apply coated lines? It probably would be a good idea, and it may fall under a "minor " change rule. MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #11 June 27, 2006 Quote so what would you think of 'coating' them with beeswax to smooth out the fuzzies on this problem canopy I have? I wouldn't..... I would just have the lines replaced and be done with it IF they warrant replacing. MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 561 #12 June 27, 2006 QuoteDo you know what mfgs use coated lines? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most other manufacturers use some kind of latex coating on their reserve lines. My Amigo - and the Techno that I packed last week - have/has unusually heavy latex coating on the lines. The only danger with latex coating is that if it gets too thick and too unstable, then lines might stick together. Just ask Strong Enterprises about that! Hee! Hee! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 561 #13 June 27, 2006 Quoteso what would you think of 'coating' them with beeswax to smooth out the fuzzies >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Putting bees wax inside a reserve container opens another huge can of worms. If that reserve landed in my loft later, I would not repack it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrigger1 2 #14 June 27, 2006 Quote Most other manufacturers use some kind of latex coating on their reserve lines. Actually, it is a synthetic coating that most use; different from a Latex type coating. There are different coatings out there, but I am speaking of the same coating that Strong, Flight Concepts, Precision, and now, Icarus is using. They all get it from CSR, Inc. Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bliston 0 #15 June 29, 2006 I heard from them (back a few years ago) that they didn't coat their reserve lines because it helps maintain elasticity and softens opening shock. If this is the case, I'll gladly put up with having lines that demand a bit of extra care to avoid hook fastener (I've had a high speed mal and had to deploy a Dash-M - it sucked ass). I don't pack much else besides PD reserves, so maybe I'm numb to the issue - but I haven't run into problems, even with other PD reserves... BenMass Defiance 4-wayFS website sticks! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites justinb138 0 #16 June 29, 2006 QuoteI heard from them (back a few years ago) that they didn't coat their reserve lines because it helps maintain elasticity and softens opening shock. Spectra has so little elasticity, that I doubt a coating would make that much difference either way. If anything, the increased friction between the slider grommets and the lines may slow the slider down a little bit compared to coated lines. Quote If this is the case, I'll gladly put up with having lines that demand a bit of extra care to avoid hook fastener (I've had a high speed mal and had to deploy a Dash-M - it sucked ass) I think canopy design has more to do with it than line specifics. I've had terminal rides on a Dash-M and a Smart reserve. The Dash-M smacked the living shit out of me (bruises for 2 weeks), and the Smart didn't even leave me sore. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Pablito 0 #17 July 6, 2006 If in doubt send it to the manufacturer. "If you don't overcome your fears they will overcome you first" Shady Monkey/6Segundos Rodriguez/AKA Pablito Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ZigZagMarquis 8 #18 July 6, 2006 About a year ago, I experienced basically the same thing on a reserve repack with a PD160R in a J3K that was in need of a repack after a reserve ride. The preceeding cut-away, reserve deployment, reserve ride, landing etc. was uneventful, but when inspecting the reserve, I found that both the left and right steering lines were "fuzzed up" like jumper03 describes and like many have said here, most likely due to encountering the hook side of the Velcro on the free-bag; either on deployment or during a previous I&R. To be on the safe side, the reserve was returned to PD with the request for an inspection / recommendation / replacement of the steering lines. At that time, PD contacted me, as the rigger that sent them this canopy, and agreed that the steering lines should be replaced, but that they'd rather replace the entire line-kit rather then just replacing individual lines since "its a reserve". I'll skip the interlude, and cut to the chase, which they did, an entire line kit on this reserve, but at a significantly reduced price. Anyway, just a bit of 411 on a similar experience I had. On a similar, but related topic... I kinda like the way R.I. and Infinity does the hook/pile on the free-bag as opposed to others... their set-up seems less likely to have lines encounter the hook during packing and deployment, IMO. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites justinb138 0 #19 July 6, 2006 Quote On a similar, but related topic... I kinda like the way R.I. and Infinity does the hook/pile on the free-bag as opposed to others... their set-up seems less likely to have lines encounter the hook during packing and deployment, IMO. I'm fond of the Wings freebag design for this reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggermick 6 #20 July 6, 2006 QuoteQuote On a similar, but related topic... I kinda like the way R.I. and Infinity does the hook/pile on the free-bag as opposed to others... their set-up seems less likely to have lines encounter the hook during packing and deployment, IMO. I'm fond of the Wings freebag design for this reason. This setup was originally designed for reserves with bulky lines (550 dacron). Back in the day, some reserve lines were pretty bulky and had a tendency to seperate the velcro on a standard type free bag (due to the non sheering action, think holding your palms together and pulling them apart rather than sliding them apart (much more friction involved)). To have the bulk of the lines come out of the pocket in one un-controlled lump and un-metered while the safety stow is still locked is very dangerous. Sandy Reid was the first to use this on the original Tallon back in the 80's. I thought it was a great idea and used it on the Reflex also. The ADDED benefit was, as you pointed out that the lines have much less of a chance to come into contact with the velcro. This was merely a side benefit to the original intent, but a good one. Hope this adds to your gear history trivia pile, it is valuable info for you as a rigger also. Mick. Edit: Made the change to the statement mentioned in sun devils post. Sorry for the confusion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 94 #21 July 6, 2006 QuoteTo have the bulk of the lines come out of the pocket while the safety stow is still locked is very dangerous. Isn't that what is intended, the safety stow clearing after all the lines are out of the pocket?People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggermick 6 #22 July 6, 2006 QuoteQuoteTo have the bulk of the lines come out of the pocket while the safety stow is still locked is very dangerous. Isn't that what is intended, the safety stow clearing after all the lines are out of the pocket? When I said "the bulk of the lines come out of the pocket" I meant all at once in a clump with no metering. I should have phrased it a little differently. Sorry for the confusion. Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
riggerrob 561 #13 June 27, 2006 Quoteso what would you think of 'coating' them with beeswax to smooth out the fuzzies >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Putting bees wax inside a reserve container opens another huge can of worms. If that reserve landed in my loft later, I would not repack it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrigger1 2 #14 June 27, 2006 Quote Most other manufacturers use some kind of latex coating on their reserve lines. Actually, it is a synthetic coating that most use; different from a Latex type coating. There are different coatings out there, but I am speaking of the same coating that Strong, Flight Concepts, Precision, and now, Icarus is using. They all get it from CSR, Inc. Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bliston 0 #15 June 29, 2006 I heard from them (back a few years ago) that they didn't coat their reserve lines because it helps maintain elasticity and softens opening shock. If this is the case, I'll gladly put up with having lines that demand a bit of extra care to avoid hook fastener (I've had a high speed mal and had to deploy a Dash-M - it sucked ass). I don't pack much else besides PD reserves, so maybe I'm numb to the issue - but I haven't run into problems, even with other PD reserves... BenMass Defiance 4-wayFS website sticks! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites justinb138 0 #16 June 29, 2006 QuoteI heard from them (back a few years ago) that they didn't coat their reserve lines because it helps maintain elasticity and softens opening shock. Spectra has so little elasticity, that I doubt a coating would make that much difference either way. If anything, the increased friction between the slider grommets and the lines may slow the slider down a little bit compared to coated lines. Quote If this is the case, I'll gladly put up with having lines that demand a bit of extra care to avoid hook fastener (I've had a high speed mal and had to deploy a Dash-M - it sucked ass) I think canopy design has more to do with it than line specifics. I've had terminal rides on a Dash-M and a Smart reserve. The Dash-M smacked the living shit out of me (bruises for 2 weeks), and the Smart didn't even leave me sore. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Pablito 0 #17 July 6, 2006 If in doubt send it to the manufacturer. "If you don't overcome your fears they will overcome you first" Shady Monkey/6Segundos Rodriguez/AKA Pablito Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ZigZagMarquis 8 #18 July 6, 2006 About a year ago, I experienced basically the same thing on a reserve repack with a PD160R in a J3K that was in need of a repack after a reserve ride. The preceeding cut-away, reserve deployment, reserve ride, landing etc. was uneventful, but when inspecting the reserve, I found that both the left and right steering lines were "fuzzed up" like jumper03 describes and like many have said here, most likely due to encountering the hook side of the Velcro on the free-bag; either on deployment or during a previous I&R. To be on the safe side, the reserve was returned to PD with the request for an inspection / recommendation / replacement of the steering lines. At that time, PD contacted me, as the rigger that sent them this canopy, and agreed that the steering lines should be replaced, but that they'd rather replace the entire line-kit rather then just replacing individual lines since "its a reserve". I'll skip the interlude, and cut to the chase, which they did, an entire line kit on this reserve, but at a significantly reduced price. Anyway, just a bit of 411 on a similar experience I had. On a similar, but related topic... I kinda like the way R.I. and Infinity does the hook/pile on the free-bag as opposed to others... their set-up seems less likely to have lines encounter the hook during packing and deployment, IMO. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites justinb138 0 #19 July 6, 2006 Quote On a similar, but related topic... I kinda like the way R.I. and Infinity does the hook/pile on the free-bag as opposed to others... their set-up seems less likely to have lines encounter the hook during packing and deployment, IMO. I'm fond of the Wings freebag design for this reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggermick 6 #20 July 6, 2006 QuoteQuote On a similar, but related topic... I kinda like the way R.I. and Infinity does the hook/pile on the free-bag as opposed to others... their set-up seems less likely to have lines encounter the hook during packing and deployment, IMO. I'm fond of the Wings freebag design for this reason. This setup was originally designed for reserves with bulky lines (550 dacron). Back in the day, some reserve lines were pretty bulky and had a tendency to seperate the velcro on a standard type free bag (due to the non sheering action, think holding your palms together and pulling them apart rather than sliding them apart (much more friction involved)). To have the bulk of the lines come out of the pocket in one un-controlled lump and un-metered while the safety stow is still locked is very dangerous. Sandy Reid was the first to use this on the original Tallon back in the 80's. I thought it was a great idea and used it on the Reflex also. The ADDED benefit was, as you pointed out that the lines have much less of a chance to come into contact with the velcro. This was merely a side benefit to the original intent, but a good one. Hope this adds to your gear history trivia pile, it is valuable info for you as a rigger also. Mick. Edit: Made the change to the statement mentioned in sun devils post. Sorry for the confusion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 94 #21 July 6, 2006 QuoteTo have the bulk of the lines come out of the pocket while the safety stow is still locked is very dangerous. Isn't that what is intended, the safety stow clearing after all the lines are out of the pocket?People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggermick 6 #22 July 6, 2006 QuoteQuoteTo have the bulk of the lines come out of the pocket while the safety stow is still locked is very dangerous. Isn't that what is intended, the safety stow clearing after all the lines are out of the pocket? When I said "the bulk of the lines come out of the pocket" I meant all at once in a clump with no metering. I should have phrased it a little differently. Sorry for the confusion. Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
masterrigger1 2 #14 June 27, 2006 Quote Most other manufacturers use some kind of latex coating on their reserve lines. Actually, it is a synthetic coating that most use; different from a Latex type coating. There are different coatings out there, but I am speaking of the same coating that Strong, Flight Concepts, Precision, and now, Icarus is using. They all get it from CSR, Inc. Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bliston 0 #15 June 29, 2006 I heard from them (back a few years ago) that they didn't coat their reserve lines because it helps maintain elasticity and softens opening shock. If this is the case, I'll gladly put up with having lines that demand a bit of extra care to avoid hook fastener (I've had a high speed mal and had to deploy a Dash-M - it sucked ass). I don't pack much else besides PD reserves, so maybe I'm numb to the issue - but I haven't run into problems, even with other PD reserves... BenMass Defiance 4-wayFS website sticks! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #16 June 29, 2006 QuoteI heard from them (back a few years ago) that they didn't coat their reserve lines because it helps maintain elasticity and softens opening shock. Spectra has so little elasticity, that I doubt a coating would make that much difference either way. If anything, the increased friction between the slider grommets and the lines may slow the slider down a little bit compared to coated lines. Quote If this is the case, I'll gladly put up with having lines that demand a bit of extra care to avoid hook fastener (I've had a high speed mal and had to deploy a Dash-M - it sucked ass) I think canopy design has more to do with it than line specifics. I've had terminal rides on a Dash-M and a Smart reserve. The Dash-M smacked the living shit out of me (bruises for 2 weeks), and the Smart didn't even leave me sore. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pablito 0 #17 July 6, 2006 If in doubt send it to the manufacturer. "If you don't overcome your fears they will overcome you first" Shady Monkey/6Segundos Rodriguez/AKA Pablito Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #18 July 6, 2006 About a year ago, I experienced basically the same thing on a reserve repack with a PD160R in a J3K that was in need of a repack after a reserve ride. The preceeding cut-away, reserve deployment, reserve ride, landing etc. was uneventful, but when inspecting the reserve, I found that both the left and right steering lines were "fuzzed up" like jumper03 describes and like many have said here, most likely due to encountering the hook side of the Velcro on the free-bag; either on deployment or during a previous I&R. To be on the safe side, the reserve was returned to PD with the request for an inspection / recommendation / replacement of the steering lines. At that time, PD contacted me, as the rigger that sent them this canopy, and agreed that the steering lines should be replaced, but that they'd rather replace the entire line-kit rather then just replacing individual lines since "its a reserve". I'll skip the interlude, and cut to the chase, which they did, an entire line kit on this reserve, but at a significantly reduced price. Anyway, just a bit of 411 on a similar experience I had. On a similar, but related topic... I kinda like the way R.I. and Infinity does the hook/pile on the free-bag as opposed to others... their set-up seems less likely to have lines encounter the hook during packing and deployment, IMO. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #19 July 6, 2006 Quote On a similar, but related topic... I kinda like the way R.I. and Infinity does the hook/pile on the free-bag as opposed to others... their set-up seems less likely to have lines encounter the hook during packing and deployment, IMO. I'm fond of the Wings freebag design for this reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 6 #20 July 6, 2006 QuoteQuote On a similar, but related topic... I kinda like the way R.I. and Infinity does the hook/pile on the free-bag as opposed to others... their set-up seems less likely to have lines encounter the hook during packing and deployment, IMO. I'm fond of the Wings freebag design for this reason. This setup was originally designed for reserves with bulky lines (550 dacron). Back in the day, some reserve lines were pretty bulky and had a tendency to seperate the velcro on a standard type free bag (due to the non sheering action, think holding your palms together and pulling them apart rather than sliding them apart (much more friction involved)). To have the bulk of the lines come out of the pocket in one un-controlled lump and un-metered while the safety stow is still locked is very dangerous. Sandy Reid was the first to use this on the original Tallon back in the 80's. I thought it was a great idea and used it on the Reflex also. The ADDED benefit was, as you pointed out that the lines have much less of a chance to come into contact with the velcro. This was merely a side benefit to the original intent, but a good one. Hope this adds to your gear history trivia pile, it is valuable info for you as a rigger also. Mick. Edit: Made the change to the statement mentioned in sun devils post. Sorry for the confusion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #21 July 6, 2006 QuoteTo have the bulk of the lines come out of the pocket while the safety stow is still locked is very dangerous. Isn't that what is intended, the safety stow clearing after all the lines are out of the pocket?People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 6 #22 July 6, 2006 QuoteQuoteTo have the bulk of the lines come out of the pocket while the safety stow is still locked is very dangerous. Isn't that what is intended, the safety stow clearing after all the lines are out of the pocket? When I said "the bulk of the lines come out of the pocket" I meant all at once in a clump with no metering. I should have phrased it a little differently. Sorry for the confusion. Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
