shall555 0 #26 June 2, 2006 Belly band on a contemporary Vector III Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KellyF 16 #27 June 2, 2006 Is that your rig? Have you tried to pull the rig off when the legstraps are close to our knees? I suspect that you'll still be able to pull it off, but I could be wrong Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MB38 0 #28 June 3, 2006 There, that's about what I had in mind. I imagine it might be even more effective with cut-in laterals. That said, I know next to nothing about rigging and harness design. I seem to remember Bill Booth mentioning that belly bands may become an option on the V3? This was during a Skydive Radio interview. Then again, my mind makes stuff up - I could be spouting nonsense.I really don't know what I'm talking about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MakeItHappen 15 #29 June 3, 2006 QuoteThe fact that your rig is new (which you keep saying) and you can get out of it doesn't mean it's built or designed wrong. It is what it is. They stay on when used as directed. Can an unusual circumstance lead to falling out? Yep. Have manufacturer's deemed it necessary to eliminate that completely? Nope. Jan and others have proposed and implemented modifications which help. Use them if you want. But for most of us it's not news, it's not particularly worrisome, if we want it fixed we do it and go about our business, and it certainly doesn't warrent an exclamation point, let alone three. And it doesn't warrent grounding your rig because of it. But, if it does worry you stop talking about it and get it modified. You know, Terry, I just find this type of response to be a bit standoff-ish. What I'm trying to say is that people tend to have this "All knowing and all seeing'' view towards mfgs/riggers. IOW, the mfg/rigger can do no bad, say no bad, have no bad. In my limited lifespan and experience as a jumper of 25 years, I know otherwise. I know that mfg/riggers don't always say the right thing and may occasionally put out products that could kill people. IOW, I am saying that there are possible situations where a jumper could fall out of their rig. Not every situation, mind you. This jumper, propilot, found out that he could extricate himself rather easily from his rig if he was in a sit-fly position. If the mfg of his rig just blows it off as a 'Don't worry about it kid' thing, they have lost credibility. This jumper knows for a fact that he can slip out of the harness under such-n-such situation. This jumper is concerned about that too, and rightly so. It boggles my mind to see mfgs/riggers toss this situation off as a "don't worry about it thing". What will it take, an up-jumper with a premee at exactly the wrong time to illustrate the point? I hope not. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites propilot 0 #30 June 3, 2006 Well, regarldess of all the bs, it seems to me that a simple 15 min rigging job to make a strap connecting the to leg straps together (like that shown in the article linked earlier in the thread) could make falling through the hole in the back of ones rig an imposibility (well, as close we can come to impossibile). So, my question is, why dont we do it? Its cheap, simple, and only takes a few minutes to add to any rig. I wonder if someone had something about tandem harness adjustment a year ago what the response would be. Perhaps "dont worry about it, it has been known for a long time that certain body types could possibly fall out of a tandem harness but you dont hear about it often, dont worry about it" ? God forbid we take preemptive action. Its just not cool to be too safe when skydiving. Btw, as a jump pilot ive heard the "dont worry about, we have been loading our cessna 182 with 5 jumpers for years" argument. It's still retarded to do it and you wont catch me flying that way. Just because its the status quo, doesnt mean its the best way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Slurp56 0 #31 June 3, 2006 Screw all this BS. Propilot, you still havent adressed the issue of shooting out the yoke of your harness in a head down issue. How is 1 way of falling out of your harness a bigger concern than any other? Just asking, not trying to be a dick, seems like alot of emotion, more than anything, wrapped up in this thread. To answer your question, I havent added a strap to my personal rig because I dont see it as a prevalent issue. I've already accepted the risk that I could die even if I do everything right and I'm not scared of it. I'm certainly not concerned with falling out the back. If your gear doesnt fit right, get it fixed. A Manufacturer cannot make a perfect fit off of measurements. They can get close but it may take a try or two to make it right. There are an infinite number of body proportions out there, to place the blame solely on the container/manufacturer is insane. You gave them the measurements and they built your rig to fit those measurements. If its not right, call them and see if you can have it modified. They probably offer a solution. Mirage offers an option called "Fancy Pants" to combat this issue. So you cant blame the manufacturer, you made the choice. I'm only offering advice, not taking jabs. Good luck with your riggin endeavors.________________________________________ I have proof-read this post 500 times, but I guarantee you'll still manage to find a flaw. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggermick 7 #32 June 3, 2006 QuoteIs that your rig? Have you tried to pull the rig off when the legstraps are close to our knees? I suspect that you'll still be able to pull it off, but I could be wrong Personally I would route the belly band inside the main lift web as it can be snugged tighter than what is shown. Even so your rib cage will not allow for the belly band to slip off all the way to your head , unless your belly exceeds your rib cage but that's another story altogether. Think of belly bands like belts, if they are snug they can't go to far in either direction. Nothings perfect. Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #33 June 3, 2006 BTW, I wouldn't hesitate to jump my original Wonderhog today, complete with One-Shot capewells, belly band throw-out and all.... *** One shots! On mine, when the whole belly-band issue came out, we just sewed some heavy webbing on the inside of the band to make it more rigid and not able to twist. Mine has a 3ring..and yeah I'd STILL jump it today. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #34 June 3, 2006 Hell, why dont you jump with an old 70s rig with a belly mounted reserve I mean, sheesh, everyone knows you can die skydiving, why not make it more dangerous. *** Just curious...why would think jumping a belly mounted reserve is more dangerous? I remember when the first 'Tandem' systems came out and some folks were hesitant because they wouldn't be able to reach their 'last bullet' in case of a total. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites KellyF 16 #35 June 4, 2006 QuotePersonally I would route the belly band inside the main lift web as it can be snugged tighter than what is shown. Even so your rib cage will not allow for the belly band to slip off all the way to your head , unless your belly exceeds your rib cage but that's another story altogether. Think of belly bands like belts, if they are snug they can't go to far in either direction. Nothings perfect. True, but the poster seems to have the belly band snug in the pics, but there is a fair amount of space between his body and the edge of the backpad (where the belly band is sewn in) that will make the belly band loosen considerably when the main is out of the container. Like you said, routing it under the MLW, and tying into the center of the backpad, would eliminate the geometry change. And nothing's perfect. And.........I could be wrong Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites propilot 0 #36 June 4, 2006 I never blamed the manufactuerer. I dont do headdown. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #37 June 4, 2006 And what does that help you with that the rig as standard didn't?---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shall555 0 #38 June 4, 2006 I enlisted a guy at the dz to wear the rig so I could grab some photos. He didn't tighten the belly band down as tightly as I usually wear it. When I wear it, there is no 'slack' as displayed in the photo. The lower back part of the container winds up snugged into the small of my back. It feels very secure. Under canopy, I can shift the legstraps forward a bit and it's like being in a recliner half a mile up -- completely enclosed. In freefall, in a sit, it doesn't separate from my back in the windstream, as other non-belly band equipped rigs seemed to. I never liked the feel of the newer harnesses without a belly band ( I originally started jumping in the 70s ). I inquired of the Relative Workshop in Deland about whether they could retrofit the belly band to my Vector and they did. They suggested that it may be available as an option in the future. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Avion 0 #39 June 4, 2006 When I first started last year, at pull time I would throw and maintain a relaxed arch. At times when the opening was harder than usual, my upper legs would flex up. I almost kneed myself in the chin a couple of times, and noticed that my leg straps had slipped down at little. Since then I have switched to arching hard at pull time, and have found that to smooth the whole the transition to vertical, and to make harder than openings less uncomfortable. The point is if a person is unconscious, or for some other reason completely relaxed, I can see how a they could possibly fall out of the harness during opening. I would think that a second point of attachment connecting the back of the legs straps to the middle of the container at the bottom would reduce this possibility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RogerRamjet 0 #40 June 4, 2006 QuoteBTW, I wouldn't hesitate to jump my original Wonderhog today, complete with One-Shot capewells, belly band throw-out and all.... *** One shots! On mine, when the whole belly-band issue came out, we just sewed some heavy webbing on the inside of the band to make it more rigid and not able to twist. Mine has a 3ring..and yeah I'd STILL jump it today. Yup, One-shots. Sounds as though you liked them also. Every hung up cutaway I saw when I first started jumping was on Shot and a Halfs usually because of miss-adjusted catch hooks or no lubrication. One-shots had no catch. When the 3-ring came out, I really didn't see any great advantage over the one-shots (still don't except for the single handed operation), so I never changed my rigs over. As can be seen over the last couple of years incident reports, 3-rings can have some issues especially if not maintained regularly. One-shots could be buried in dirt and would still work, that's what I liked about them. Riser twists, extra tension from spinning, whatever, they still worked the same. Don't even think you could buy them now if you wanted them, but I'd be perfectly comfortable with them. Nothing against the 3-Ring, I've jumped them, cutaway with them and would jump them still, but I'd sure be on top of maintenance (which everyone should be anyway). I've seen the heavy webbing trick as well as sewing stiffener nylon to it, but they fell out of favor anyway (but may be making a comeback, hey?). ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites za_skydiver 0 #41 June 4, 2006 Has anybody ever tried using a pull up cord to tie the legstraps together? There is a few guys at my dz that do it....Some dream of flying, i live the dream... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites slotperfect 7 #42 June 5, 2006 For everyone: this is a very important topic and the perfect place to discuss it. Please don't pullute the conversation with angry posts. People will have opposing opinions to yours - always - especially in this sport and in these forums. Keep the discussion civil and save the pointless one liners for Bonfire. Thanks,Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tonto 1 #43 June 5, 2006 Quote So, my question is, why dont we do it? Its cheap, simple, and only takes a few minutes to add to any rig. Well... since you asked. a) It would make it impossible to put my wingsuit on my rig.. and b) If fitted with the wingsuit on, would make the suit impossible to remove. Clearly all risk of falling out of the harness is removed when you wear a wingsuit. In fact, there are at least 2 documented cases of wingsuit pilots failing to wear their legstraps, and have been kept in the rig by their suits. So. To be safe, you really should get a 1st flight course ASAP! tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites propilot 0 #44 June 5, 2006 Haha, I think the risk of me hurting myself trying to fly a wingsuit with my jump numbers is greater than me falling out of my rig ;]...definately want to try that wingsuit thing sometime though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DJL 235 #45 June 5, 2006 QuoteHas anybody ever tried using a pull up cord to tie the legstraps together? There is a few guys at my dz that do it.... Knowing the amount of damage that a pull-up cord does to my fingers after a weekend of packing, I'm hesitant to loop one around my leg straps. You could say it's better than nothing for a short fix but I don't like the wear that it could put on my leg strap pads. The bungee is connected to the pads and stretches a bit but keeps everything snug. The strap is wider and spreads the lateral forces out a bit and wouldn't wear down the material as much. I'm getting a bungee put on my legstraps because while I know that it won't keep me from falling through the hole if my leg straps are too low on my legs, it'll keep them together - keeping them from sliding there in the first place (assuming I don't have some gross quantity of slack in the legstraps)."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 2 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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MB38 0 #28 June 3, 2006 There, that's about what I had in mind. I imagine it might be even more effective with cut-in laterals. That said, I know next to nothing about rigging and harness design. I seem to remember Bill Booth mentioning that belly bands may become an option on the V3? This was during a Skydive Radio interview. Then again, my mind makes stuff up - I could be spouting nonsense.I really don't know what I'm talking about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #29 June 3, 2006 QuoteThe fact that your rig is new (which you keep saying) and you can get out of it doesn't mean it's built or designed wrong. It is what it is. They stay on when used as directed. Can an unusual circumstance lead to falling out? Yep. Have manufacturer's deemed it necessary to eliminate that completely? Nope. Jan and others have proposed and implemented modifications which help. Use them if you want. But for most of us it's not news, it's not particularly worrisome, if we want it fixed we do it and go about our business, and it certainly doesn't warrent an exclamation point, let alone three. And it doesn't warrent grounding your rig because of it. But, if it does worry you stop talking about it and get it modified. You know, Terry, I just find this type of response to be a bit standoff-ish. What I'm trying to say is that people tend to have this "All knowing and all seeing'' view towards mfgs/riggers. IOW, the mfg/rigger can do no bad, say no bad, have no bad. In my limited lifespan and experience as a jumper of 25 years, I know otherwise. I know that mfg/riggers don't always say the right thing and may occasionally put out products that could kill people. IOW, I am saying that there are possible situations where a jumper could fall out of their rig. Not every situation, mind you. This jumper, propilot, found out that he could extricate himself rather easily from his rig if he was in a sit-fly position. If the mfg of his rig just blows it off as a 'Don't worry about it kid' thing, they have lost credibility. This jumper knows for a fact that he can slip out of the harness under such-n-such situation. This jumper is concerned about that too, and rightly so. It boggles my mind to see mfgs/riggers toss this situation off as a "don't worry about it thing". What will it take, an up-jumper with a premee at exactly the wrong time to illustrate the point? I hope not. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
propilot 0 #30 June 3, 2006 Well, regarldess of all the bs, it seems to me that a simple 15 min rigging job to make a strap connecting the to leg straps together (like that shown in the article linked earlier in the thread) could make falling through the hole in the back of ones rig an imposibility (well, as close we can come to impossibile). So, my question is, why dont we do it? Its cheap, simple, and only takes a few minutes to add to any rig. I wonder if someone had something about tandem harness adjustment a year ago what the response would be. Perhaps "dont worry about it, it has been known for a long time that certain body types could possibly fall out of a tandem harness but you dont hear about it often, dont worry about it" ? God forbid we take preemptive action. Its just not cool to be too safe when skydiving. Btw, as a jump pilot ive heard the "dont worry about, we have been loading our cessna 182 with 5 jumpers for years" argument. It's still retarded to do it and you wont catch me flying that way. Just because its the status quo, doesnt mean its the best way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Slurp56 0 #31 June 3, 2006 Screw all this BS. Propilot, you still havent adressed the issue of shooting out the yoke of your harness in a head down issue. How is 1 way of falling out of your harness a bigger concern than any other? Just asking, not trying to be a dick, seems like alot of emotion, more than anything, wrapped up in this thread. To answer your question, I havent added a strap to my personal rig because I dont see it as a prevalent issue. I've already accepted the risk that I could die even if I do everything right and I'm not scared of it. I'm certainly not concerned with falling out the back. If your gear doesnt fit right, get it fixed. A Manufacturer cannot make a perfect fit off of measurements. They can get close but it may take a try or two to make it right. There are an infinite number of body proportions out there, to place the blame solely on the container/manufacturer is insane. You gave them the measurements and they built your rig to fit those measurements. If its not right, call them and see if you can have it modified. They probably offer a solution. Mirage offers an option called "Fancy Pants" to combat this issue. So you cant blame the manufacturer, you made the choice. I'm only offering advice, not taking jabs. Good luck with your riggin endeavors.________________________________________ I have proof-read this post 500 times, but I guarantee you'll still manage to find a flaw. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 7 #32 June 3, 2006 QuoteIs that your rig? Have you tried to pull the rig off when the legstraps are close to our knees? I suspect that you'll still be able to pull it off, but I could be wrong Personally I would route the belly band inside the main lift web as it can be snugged tighter than what is shown. Even so your rib cage will not allow for the belly band to slip off all the way to your head , unless your belly exceeds your rib cage but that's another story altogether. Think of belly bands like belts, if they are snug they can't go to far in either direction. Nothings perfect. Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #33 June 3, 2006 BTW, I wouldn't hesitate to jump my original Wonderhog today, complete with One-Shot capewells, belly band throw-out and all.... *** One shots! On mine, when the whole belly-band issue came out, we just sewed some heavy webbing on the inside of the band to make it more rigid and not able to twist. Mine has a 3ring..and yeah I'd STILL jump it today. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #34 June 3, 2006 Hell, why dont you jump with an old 70s rig with a belly mounted reserve I mean, sheesh, everyone knows you can die skydiving, why not make it more dangerous. *** Just curious...why would think jumping a belly mounted reserve is more dangerous? I remember when the first 'Tandem' systems came out and some folks were hesitant because they wouldn't be able to reach their 'last bullet' in case of a total. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KellyF 16 #35 June 4, 2006 QuotePersonally I would route the belly band inside the main lift web as it can be snugged tighter than what is shown. Even so your rib cage will not allow for the belly band to slip off all the way to your head , unless your belly exceeds your rib cage but that's another story altogether. Think of belly bands like belts, if they are snug they can't go to far in either direction. Nothings perfect. True, but the poster seems to have the belly band snug in the pics, but there is a fair amount of space between his body and the edge of the backpad (where the belly band is sewn in) that will make the belly band loosen considerably when the main is out of the container. Like you said, routing it under the MLW, and tying into the center of the backpad, would eliminate the geometry change. And nothing's perfect. And.........I could be wrong Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
propilot 0 #36 June 4, 2006 I never blamed the manufactuerer. I dont do headdown. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #37 June 4, 2006 And what does that help you with that the rig as standard didn't?---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shall555 0 #38 June 4, 2006 I enlisted a guy at the dz to wear the rig so I could grab some photos. He didn't tighten the belly band down as tightly as I usually wear it. When I wear it, there is no 'slack' as displayed in the photo. The lower back part of the container winds up snugged into the small of my back. It feels very secure. Under canopy, I can shift the legstraps forward a bit and it's like being in a recliner half a mile up -- completely enclosed. In freefall, in a sit, it doesn't separate from my back in the windstream, as other non-belly band equipped rigs seemed to. I never liked the feel of the newer harnesses without a belly band ( I originally started jumping in the 70s ). I inquired of the Relative Workshop in Deland about whether they could retrofit the belly band to my Vector and they did. They suggested that it may be available as an option in the future. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Avion 0 #39 June 4, 2006 When I first started last year, at pull time I would throw and maintain a relaxed arch. At times when the opening was harder than usual, my upper legs would flex up. I almost kneed myself in the chin a couple of times, and noticed that my leg straps had slipped down at little. Since then I have switched to arching hard at pull time, and have found that to smooth the whole the transition to vertical, and to make harder than openings less uncomfortable. The point is if a person is unconscious, or for some other reason completely relaxed, I can see how a they could possibly fall out of the harness during opening. I would think that a second point of attachment connecting the back of the legs straps to the middle of the container at the bottom would reduce this possibility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RogerRamjet 0 #40 June 4, 2006 QuoteBTW, I wouldn't hesitate to jump my original Wonderhog today, complete with One-Shot capewells, belly band throw-out and all.... *** One shots! On mine, when the whole belly-band issue came out, we just sewed some heavy webbing on the inside of the band to make it more rigid and not able to twist. Mine has a 3ring..and yeah I'd STILL jump it today. Yup, One-shots. Sounds as though you liked them also. Every hung up cutaway I saw when I first started jumping was on Shot and a Halfs usually because of miss-adjusted catch hooks or no lubrication. One-shots had no catch. When the 3-ring came out, I really didn't see any great advantage over the one-shots (still don't except for the single handed operation), so I never changed my rigs over. As can be seen over the last couple of years incident reports, 3-rings can have some issues especially if not maintained regularly. One-shots could be buried in dirt and would still work, that's what I liked about them. Riser twists, extra tension from spinning, whatever, they still worked the same. Don't even think you could buy them now if you wanted them, but I'd be perfectly comfortable with them. Nothing against the 3-Ring, I've jumped them, cutaway with them and would jump them still, but I'd sure be on top of maintenance (which everyone should be anyway). I've seen the heavy webbing trick as well as sewing stiffener nylon to it, but they fell out of favor anyway (but may be making a comeback, hey?). ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
za_skydiver 0 #41 June 4, 2006 Has anybody ever tried using a pull up cord to tie the legstraps together? There is a few guys at my dz that do it....Some dream of flying, i live the dream... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #42 June 5, 2006 For everyone: this is a very important topic and the perfect place to discuss it. Please don't pullute the conversation with angry posts. People will have opposing opinions to yours - always - especially in this sport and in these forums. Keep the discussion civil and save the pointless one liners for Bonfire. Thanks,Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #43 June 5, 2006 Quote So, my question is, why dont we do it? Its cheap, simple, and only takes a few minutes to add to any rig. Well... since you asked. a) It would make it impossible to put my wingsuit on my rig.. and b) If fitted with the wingsuit on, would make the suit impossible to remove. Clearly all risk of falling out of the harness is removed when you wear a wingsuit. In fact, there are at least 2 documented cases of wingsuit pilots failing to wear their legstraps, and have been kept in the rig by their suits. So. To be safe, you really should get a 1st flight course ASAP! tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
propilot 0 #44 June 5, 2006 Haha, I think the risk of me hurting myself trying to fly a wingsuit with my jump numbers is greater than me falling out of my rig ;]...definately want to try that wingsuit thing sometime though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 235 #45 June 5, 2006 QuoteHas anybody ever tried using a pull up cord to tie the legstraps together? There is a few guys at my dz that do it.... Knowing the amount of damage that a pull-up cord does to my fingers after a weekend of packing, I'm hesitant to loop one around my leg straps. You could say it's better than nothing for a short fix but I don't like the wear that it could put on my leg strap pads. The bungee is connected to the pads and stretches a bit but keeps everything snug. The strap is wider and spreads the lateral forces out a bit and wouldn't wear down the material as much. I'm getting a bungee put on my legstraps because while I know that it won't keep me from falling through the hole if my leg straps are too low on my legs, it'll keep them together - keeping them from sliding there in the first place (assuming I don't have some gross quantity of slack in the legstraps)."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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