Big Canopies and Wing Loading

[mbondvegas 0]

From what I've read and heard, a larger canopy at a specific wing loading is not as overloaded/aggresive as a smaller wing with the same loading. It seems that beginners should start with a .8-1.0 wing load, but what about bigger jumpers. For instance one with and exit weight of 220, would a 210 Pilot be an aggressive wingloaded canopy?

Blue Skies!

- - -
I am not afraid of tomorrow, for I have seen yesterday and I love today.

[phoenixlpr 0]

Depends on you skill set that we don't know anything....

You may kill yourself under a fully inflated canopy @ WL1.0.

[leapdog 0]

Two schools of thought on this.

1. More wieght underneath the wing means agressive for students. Reason? the skill level.

2. The other thought is that since the canopy is a student canopy and therefore flight characteristics are doscile. a .02 over or under wing load won't matter that much. Even at a lower skill level.

The thoughts in my opinion shuld be combined and sometimes they are. So far, the ones hurting themselves more and more seriously are experienced jumpers with 1000 jumps or more under a HiPer pushing the evelop so far it breaks when they least expect it. Not the students. Read the incident reports.

Edited to add that I am making an assumption that students and jumpers with low jump numbers tend to be more conservative and don't push the envelop.

Gunnery Sergeant of Marines
"I would like it if I were challenged mentally at my job and not feel like I'm mentally challenged." - Co-worker

[BlindBrick 0]

I don't have a lot of jump numbers, but virtually all my experience is on 250+ sf canopies. Currently I'm flying a 269 sf Safire II at 1.3.

Based off my experience, I feel the "bigger = less agressive" argument is innacurate. While it's true that the bigger canopy responds slower, there's more energy in the system which means that when the canopy does respond, it's going to do more than a smaller model of the same canopy. That sluggish response also means that any corrective input takes a while to be felt. From experience, I can tell you this can get you into trouble on landing when you do something relatively minor and discover you're suddenly coming in hotter than intended and your canopy isn't wanting to respond to input to counter the situation.



-Blind

"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

[leapdog 0]

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I don't have a lot of jump numbers, but virtually all my experience is on 250+ sf canopies. Currently I'm flying a 269 sf Safire II at 1.3.

Based off my experience, I feel the "bigger = less agressive" argument is innacurate. While it's true that the bigger canopy responds slower, there's more energy in the system which means that when the canopy does respond, it's going to do more than a smaller model of the same canopy. That sluggish response also means that any corrective input takes a while to be felt. From experience, I can tell you this can get you into trouble on landing when you do something relatively minor and discover you're suddenly coming in hotter than intended and your canopy isn't wanting to respond to input to counter the situation.



-Blind

Your wing load is higher than most I think.
I may be confused with your verbage. It seems that you are writing bases on someone who is already experienced with canopy flight or atleast more so than a sutdent. The whole idea is being able to anticipate what input does what to a canopy and not doing it if it will get you into trouble. Also if you do mess up what it takes to quickly fix it.

This means that someone has to gain experience to do that and understand how the canopy they use flys, or it's flight characteristics.

Not to say that you are wrong in what you type, but the perspective is going to be different in those regards.

Gunnery Sergeant of Marines
"I would like it if I were challenged mentally at my job and not feel like I'm mentally challenged." - Co-worker

[milkybar 0]

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From what I've read and heard, a larger canopy at a specific wing loading is not as overloaded/aggresive as a smaller wing with the same loading. It seems that beginners should start with a .8-1.0 wing load, but what about bigger jumpers. For instance one with and exit weight of 220, would a 210 Pilot be an aggressive wingloaded canopy?

Blue Skies!

Your information is correct: A small canopy is a small canopy regardless of wing loading.
Your question regards 210 pilot and wingloading [1.04], depends on your abilities and where you are jumping [above sea level, humid location].
If you are considering buying such a canopy talk to your Instructors, they will guide you in your decision.
Just because we "sign you off" doesn't mean we've "signed you out".

What you got?? What you got??? Johnny 1488

[Fast 0]

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Edited to add that I am making an assumption that students and jumpers with low jump numbers tend to be more conservative and don't push the envelop.

The only thing that makes this is a bad assumption is that...

Students lack an understanding of what pushing the envelope is. They do all kinds of stupid stuff because they either forget to think, think it will be ok, panic, or just plain fuck up.

The docile canopy helps to save thier ass.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[ryoder 1,387]

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From what I've read and heard, a larger canopy at a specific wing loading is not as overloaded/aggresive as a smaller wing with the same loading. It seems that beginners should start with a .8-1.0 wing load, but what about bigger jumpers. For instance one with and exit weight of 220, would a 210 Pilot be an aggressive wingloaded canopy?

Blue Skies!

Why not see what the mfgr says:
http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/wingload.pdf

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Broke 0]

PD has some great articles. One article I rember reading was talking about how smaller canopies under the same winloading may be more responcive due to the fact they have a shorter line set.

Divot your source for all things Hillbilly.
Anvil Brother 84
SCR 14192

[Tink1717 2]

You can kill yourself under any cannopy at any wing loading. It is best to fly conservative and get instruction.

Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off.
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717

[phoenixlpr 0]

I managed to break my ankle with a PD Navigator 210 @ WL1.0 at jump #87.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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From what I've read and heard, a larger canopy at a specific wing loading is not as overloaded/aggresive as a smaller wing with the same loading. It seems that beginners should start with a .8-1.0 wing load, but what about bigger jumpers. For instance one with and exit weight of 220, would a 210 Pilot be an aggressive wingloaded canopy?

Blue Skies!

A larger canopy will have slightly more forward speed than a smaller one of the same model at the same wing loading because of a lower ratio of drag to suspended weight (the lines and seams don't get wider for the larger canopy and heavier jumpers tend to have higher sectional density - when you scale up the same body shape mass is a cubic function while frontal area and therefore drag are square).

Both practice (small people seem to bounce more on hard landings and large people seem to break bones more often) and theory (large people have more kinetic energy at the same speed) show that crash landings are more likely to do real damage to bigger people.

At the same wing loading, the larger canopy just isn't going to be as responsive and exciting as the small one.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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I managed to break my ankle with a PD Navigator 210 @ WL1.0 at jump #87.

I saw a pelvis, lumbar vertebrae, cocyx, and sacrum breaking landing at under a pound per square foot.

All of us screw up. It's just less likely and tends to hurt less under larger parachutes.

[ripcord4 0]

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I managed to break my ankle with a PD Navigator 210 @ WL1.0 at jump #87.

I saw a pelvis, lumbar vertebrae, cocyx, and sacrum breaking landing at under a pound per square foot.

All of us screw up. It's just less likely and tends to hurt less under larger parachutes.

Amen to that. You can hurt/kill yourself under any size canopy. I jump an MC-4 at a .63/1 wing-loading and while I haven't hurt myself with it, I certainly have scared myself under it. Respect ANY canopy.

[TimDave 0]

This information is not new but I will repeat it for the sake of this thread.
All canopies regardless of planform will fly at nearly the same speed at the same winloading. Smaller canopies (of similar design) will be more responsive than larger due to line length. The most important thing when it comes to skydiving is your personal reference. What is your experience and how do you handle stress. Lower wing loadings allow you to make mistakes and recognize them (hopefully) before they become a huge problem.