Moved from Incidents - Ground cutaway issues with RSL

[billvon 2,413]

Posts that have been moved from Incidents concerning deployment of a reserve on the ground when cutting away in high winds.

Popsjumper:

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In Reply To
>Disconnect the RSL prior to landing...early recognition, preparation and all that.

1) Disconnecting the RSL had nothing to do with this incident.
Nice try , Bill. In simple terms...the discussion was about landing on or near buildings, etc. and how this may have been a factor. Hence, the RSL issue.

In Reply To
2) Disconnecting the RSL is an issue of convenience, not safety.
You may want to re-think that.


In Reply To
Your reserve will not inflate on the ground even if the RSL causes a PC launch due to a cutaway after landing.
...and that. If you are only saying "most times" then, OK but you need to say that and give the youngsters true info.

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Diablopilot:

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In Reply To
2) Disconnecting the RSL is an issue of convenience, not safety. Your reserve will not inflate on the ground even if the RSL causes a PC launch due to a cutaway after landing.

Most of the time, you're right, however I have seen an ground chop on a skyhook system that cause a jumper to be drug by their reserve.
====================

[popsjumper 2]

Good idea moving this stuff.

Bad idea suggesting someone not prepare for worst case.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[billvon 2,413]

>Bad idea suggesting someone not prepare for worst case.

If you cut away a main parachute on the ground because you're being dragged, and you have an RSL, and you cut away the main, your reserve will not inflate. Yes, there are exceptions - if you jumped during Hurricane Katrina, or are sliding down a 45 degree slope at the time, the reserve may open. Neither are very realistic scenarios. It may also open if you use a Skyhook, which is a piece of gear that has different safety issues than an RSL (like the action of the Collins lanyard.)

However, there are a lot of skydivers who really believe that if they land in high winds, and they cut away, and they have an RSL, their reserve will leap into the air and keep dragging them. Anyone who has ever done this (or seen this) knows that that doesn't happen. The RSL pulls the reserve pin, and the PC launches, and half the time the reserve doesn't even clear the container. The other half of the time it plops out and lands at their feet.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

I routinely disconnect my RSL after deployment on tandem jumps. This has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with the economics of repacking the rig.

[popsjumper 2]

...and I'll continue to recommend disconnecting the RSL under canopy when faced with a potential cutaway situation of any sort after landing.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

>...Anyone who has ever done this (or seen this) knows that that doesn't happen.

Sad that you choose to ignore Spence's eyewitness report.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[billvon 2,413]

>Sad that you choose to ignore Spence's eyewitness report.

?? I have not ignored it. I take it with a grain of salt, just as I take all the people who claim that the 45 degree rule works for them. Are they lying? I don't think so; they really think it works.

I'd be interested in hearing under what conditions Spence saw that happen. We've tried to get it to happen on the ground on unjumpable days without any luck, even when the setup is perfect (i.e. they are kneeling facing the ground so the PC launches straight up.)

[Halfpastniner 0]

+1

I would like to know the circumstances for a reserve deployment from only ground winds. Doesnt seem possible.

BASE 1384

[jtnesbitt 0]

Anything is possible, and at some point in time anything that is possible will inevitably happen. However just because it can happen doesn't mean it is probable.

I am more confused by the recommendation of disconnecting the RSL in the air upon realization that someone will be landing on or near an obstacle. If you have time to drop your toggles, disconnect your RSL, then pick up your toggles again and land then there is no excuse for not being able to avoid the obstacle in the first place.

"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero

[labrys 0]

Quote

If you have time to drop your toggles, disconnect your RSL, then pick up your toggles again

It's not necessary to "drop your toggles" to disconnect your RSL. It can be done easily bringing both hands down to your shoulders still holding the toggles.

Owned by Remi #?

[jtnesbitt 0]

Point still stands....if you have the time to disconnect your RSL then you have time to maneuver away from the obstacle. The only time i can see where this wouldnt be true would be a water landing.

"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero

[labrys 0]

Quote

Point still stands....if you have the time to disconnect your RSL then you have time to maneuver away from the obstacle.

If you say so.

Owned by Remi #?

[jtnesbitt 0]

If you think I am wrong then help me understand. (I mean that sincerely and not with malice, i am always looking to learn.) The way I see it...someone wont know they are going to land on an obstacle until they are VERY low. If they realize before this point, then they should turn. If it does come down to it, and avoiding the object is impossible, then they should be so low or close to the object that all they should be focusing on is touching down.

"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero

[labrys 0]

All I'm getting at is that it simply isn't that difficult or time consuming to disconnect an RSL and if you find yourself so low that you don't have time to do it then you've made bad choices to get there.

At some point you do need to decide if an obstacle can be avoided and maneuver to avoid it if surroundings and altitude permit. That choice needs to be made before you're "VERY low".

If you're evaluating your surroundings and options properly, you will know if an obstacle is a potential threat or not on time to either avoid it or prepare to land on it.

Owned by Remi #?

[pchapman 262]

Quote

Quote

>...Anyone who has ever done this (or seen this) knows that that doesn't happen.

Sad that you choose to ignore Spence's eyewitness report.

Before this got split off from Incidents I asked Spence by PM. He shouldn't mind me sharing his answer:

Quote

Windy day, I believe it may have been a tandem master, he was walking in from the landing area and the canopy got away from him, pulled him down and was dragging him. Cut away, RSL fired the reserve, pilot chute launched and deployed the reserve.

They were not jumping in those winds. Wind picked up after they were in the air.

It's not clear if he actually saw all the details himself.

In any case it sounds like an extremely rare event, "so it doesn't happen" IN THE VAST MAJORITY OF CASES.

I could see that if the jumper moves around a lot, if the bag had fallen out of the container, then one could move enough to extract the lines and pop the safety stow. And then, with another good tug, one could get the folded canopy to catch some air. Sounds like a lot of effort though.

Or one might best be standing up and leaning forward to get the perfect pilot chute launch up into the air in very high wind to snatch the bag out and have the momentum to remove the freebag before the PC fell to the ground. That perfect PC launch isn't what will generally happen if one is getting dragged along the ground by one's main.

[popsjumper 2]

I'll add:
It's not really as simplistic as you make it out to be.
And "very low" needs to be defined.

The idea is to be prepared for the worst case.

You may think you will clear the obstacle and suddenly realize that you are not going to clear it. Now what?
(Keep in mind that "obstacle" is being used in a very loose form here just to demonstrate the point.)

Why not be prepared for that worst-case situation by taking what, 1 second, to disconnect it under canopy as soon as you think there's a good chance of a problem?
You've already learned that you can disconnect without dropping toggles....dropping toggles is NOT recommended.

What's easier...doing it under canopy or while being drug along the ground, say....or being drug off a building....or while tumbling downstream in a swift river?

Best case, why pay for a repack anyway?

Why not include it your procedures for obstacle and high-wind landings?

One "otherwise" is that you may one day have that invention that will require you to change those procedures....hopefully you will remember the new procedures when you need them.

Another "otherwise" is that if it's not your procedure now, what assurance do you have that you will remember it and perform at crunch time.?

Hope that helps.

I'll repeat again that for high-wind situations, as Bill first pointed out and continues to play on, the reserve coming out may not happen and indeed it's probably a rare event. I'm content to know that I will not be caught up in that "rare event" nor will I have to pay for an unnecessary re-pack.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[billvon 2,413]

>You may think you will clear the obstacle and suddenly realize that you
>are not going to clear it. Now what?

Fly the parachute, steer for the safest area, prepare to PLF, flare (either full or half depending on surface) and roll. Do NOT look away from where you are going to fuss with your rig.

>Why not be prepared for that worst-case situation by taking what, 1
>second, to disconnect it under canopy as soon as you think there's a good
>chance of a problem?

Because by paying attention to flying your canopy you may avoid the problem to begin with.

This is true for many other aviation activities as well. Lose an engine in a single, and many inexperienced pilots immediately start messing with the engine. After all, get the engine restarted and all your problems are over, right?

Unfortunately, that doesn't work well; flying the airplane is always the priority. Which is why most CFI's teach trim for best glide - determine landing area - set up approach - THEN fuss with the engine. That way if it doesn't restart (which is not unlikely) you are flying the airplane to a safe landing - not a passenger on an airplane that just stalled, wondering what just happened.

In paragliding, a collapse is a scary thing; you can lose most of your wing. The temptation is to pump like your life depends on it to get that wing inflated again. But again, not the best idea; the saying "steer-pump-steer" is to remind you to fly the wing FIRST, deal with the equipment SECOND.

In skydiving you have the additional problem that to get to the RSL release you have to use your hands, which are what you're using for steering.

>What's easier...doing it under canopy or while being drug along the ground

A more important question is - in which case is a momentary lapse of attention more of a big deal? I'd contend it's in the air, which is why "releasing your RSL" should not be part of a jumper's emergency landing procedures. Further, if you decide "I'll always do it high enough that it doesn't interfere with landing" - you've just eliminated one of the reasons for having an RSL in the first place.

>Best case, why pay for a repack anyway?

Yes, that is an issue, and if you really do have plenty of time (i.e. they let you out six miles short and you know you're going to land in trees) then sure, disconnect it - you've got time. But releasing the RSL should not be on anyone's "short list" of things to do to prepare for a particulary gnarly landing.

[jtnesbitt 0]

I see where you are coming from pops and labrys, i think we just have different opinions on priorities for obstacle avoidance. As Bill mentioned, i believe too that someone needs to be focusing on missing the object in the first place instead of worrying about the RSL. I understand the need for a backup plan, but in this particular scenario i feel worry about the backup could interfere with the goal of the main plan first. (Not hitting the object.) What I meant by "too low" is exactly that, too low. If someone where coming in and it looks like they are going to land on a large hanger then they obviously need to steer away. At 500ft, even a turn of 45 degrees could avoid VERY large obstacles. So, my point is someone would have to be VERY low to realize they cant avoid an object. At that point, i feel, the main concern should be ONLY on surviving the initial landing.

"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero

[riggerpaul 1]

When do you first get the notion that the winds are honking more than you expected?

As soon as you know you are keeping the parachute you have, and you know that there are no immediate traffic problems, you should begin to evaluate your landing situation.

I am not saying you fixate on it for the entire trip down, but the sooner you give it some consideration, the more time you have to plan your response. If all is well, fine, go have some fun for a while. But if you see that things might get more interesting, you should be coming up with a plan. Don't waste precious altitude before you are sure you don't need it for something more important.

As soon as you notice that the wind might be a problem, that's as good a time as any to disconnect the RSL.

Make the decision as early as you can. You shouldn't have to wait until you are very low and busy with other things.

[jtnesbitt 0]

I think that's prob the best answer Paul. Better to do it upstairs. I guess what i have a problem with is people considering/attempting to do it on final.

"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero

[popsjumper 2]

So, in a nutshell, the point is that you don't wait until you figure out that you can't avoid it...the prospect of it is enough to git-er-done before you get to that point.

edited after seeing your response to riggerpaul

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

OK Bill...keep thinking.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[billvon 2,413]

>All your jabber points to last-minute activity.

Yes, to answer your jabbering about last minute activity:

"You may think you will clear the obstacle and suddenly realize that you are not going to clear it."

Like I said, if you have plenty of time, and you want to avoid the expense of a repack, by all means, disconnect it. It is not one of the important things to do when you suddenly realize you're not going to clear that building, though. At that point you have more important things to do.

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

Like I said, if you have plenty of time, and you want to avoid the expense of a repack, by all means, disconnect it. It is not one of the important things to do when you suddenly realize you're not going to clear that building, though. At that point you have more important things to do.

Yes, that's the point of it all.


BTW...my post above was edited just as you were posting. I thought I was being a little too rough. But on second thought...nah.

Good move on taking things out of context...typical.
"Yes, to answer your jabbering about last minute activity:

"You may think you will clear the obstacle and suddenly realize that you are not going to clear it."
"

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[upndownshop 0]

Quote

>Bad idea suggesting someone not prepare for worst case.

If you cut away a main parachute on the ground because you're being dragged, and you have an RSL, and you cut away the main, your reserve will not inflate. Yes, there are exceptions - if you jumped during Hurricane Katrina, or are sliding down a 45 degree slope at the time, the reserve may open. Neither are very realistic scenarios. It may also open if you use a Skyhook, which is a piece of gear that has different safety issues than an RSL (like the action of the Collins lanyard.)

However, there are a lot of skydivers who really believe that if they land in high winds, and they cut away, and they have an RSL, their reserve will leap into the air and keep dragging them. Anyone who has ever done this (or seen this) knows that that doesn't happen. The RSL pulls the reserve pin, and the PC launches, and half the time the reserve doesn't even clear the container. The other half of the time it plops out and lands at their feet.

I for one wished I had cutaway when I landed on the hangar in 93! Prior to touching down on it I did not think of the RSL nor cuttiingaway because I thought I would make it over it, and would have had I not flared, would have been a great swoop for a level 5 on Radio! But when I was on it I did not cutaway because of the RSL being connected. Thinking the reserve would inflate.
This was a "single sided" roof, meaning only half an A frame, low end was about 8' with the top at about 24' running at probably close to a 45 degree angle.
Now I am almost certain that cuttingaway would have avoided the double compound to the fib tib coming out the bottom and side of the foot and ankle, leaving me in daily pain and thus a limp which is now causing other problems. Not to mention the two breaks in the wrist. This would have avoided me from being drug to the 24' side and then have the canopy pull me off. And of course by this time I had already yanked a toggle so it was flying straight down when it left the roof with me on my back. Would have the reserve have inflated, I always thought no, until you mentioned the 45 degree slope, but even in 24 mph I do not think it would have. And even it did I would have already slid down to the 8' drop where my brother was already there to break my fall. I probably would have walked away. (See scary stories thread for more details.)

I have not read all the post here, so excuse me if I am repeating something already posted but:
I have to agree with Bill that it is rare for a reserve to inflate especially when on your back, but I have always said, "if you can image it happening in skydiving, it probably can." As Spence said he witnessed, and as I, but that was with belly mounts and the ole Stephens systems back in the seventies, and it really only covered the jumper in silk. Maybe a couple of line burns on the neck and face but no dragging cause he was wrapped up in it.
For me the bottom line is:
Don't jump in high winds
If you do get caught unexpectedly which does happen, as I got caught in 34 mph once, and of course you know it cause your backing up, disconnect the rsl and be prepared to handle the landing.
Tip if not already mentioned:
once feet are on the ground, immediately yank a toggle (even grab the line to get more input) to flip the nose to the ground as you turn and run toward the canopy! You will always (yes strong word) find your bridle (assuming it is a collapsible) right in front of you. As you run towards the canopy make sure you do it on the bridle, it will bow tie the canopy and collapse it! Then continue on until you have the canopy in control, jump on it, fall on it, but get it!
Of course in high winds it does not require much of a flare either, don't put yourself on your back before you even touch ground.