RIGGER 0 #26 April 3, 2006 If you do not have the history of the canopy you must contact the canopy mfg. for his advice. Safe Rigging !!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #27 April 3, 2006 Quote Only PD imposes a service limit with mandatory reinspection. No other manufacturer nor the FAA imposes a life limit in the U.S. Ok .. Now you are in the same boat as MB38! Strong Enterprises mandates inspections and re-certification of their equipment after "X" years and "X" rides. I would have to look up the numbers. MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #28 April 3, 2006 QuoteThe repacks/deployments limit are not a Service Life limit. It is a STOP mark for the owner & the rigger to sent it back for the mfg. inspection to find out if the canopy still meets the TSO standarts. The canopy might be approved for service or might be grounded. QuoteThe Smart R have a limit of 20 repacks or 10 deployments which after that must be shipped to the mfg. There is no box system. From the “Smart Reserve Packing Manual” page 23. 3.1.12 POROSITY Check the porosity in the following cases: - After 10 uses - After immersion in water - when the canopy is dry - After 20 repacks (Based on 6 month repack cycle) - After any use in abnormal conditions. No where in the manual does it say anything about shipping the canopy back to the manufacture. It is the rigger doing the I&R who makes that call. You need to quit reading your ideas into what is in fact written by the FAA and manufactures. Thanks.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #29 April 4, 2006 Sparky, I do not about you, but I would send the canopy back to the manufacturer! Those "porosity checkers" are realllll expensive! I don't own one....do you??? MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #30 April 4, 2006 QuoteSparky, I do not about you, but I would send the canopy back to the manufacturer! Those "porosity checkers" are realllll expensive! I don't own one....do you??? MEL That doesn't change the facts, now does it?My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #31 April 4, 2006 Please look it up. Neither the Stellar manual or the Tandem Hawk manual give a manditory receritfication or service life that I can find. The Tandem manual refers to a 25 jump inspection done in the field. But that was part of the excemption. It does say the expected service life of the reserve is 20 jumps. But simply says inspect at the 120 day inspection cycle. But I haven't packed either one for 16 years. And I've never read the manual or packed a Techno, Smart, or Decelerator. But I had never heard anyone talk about other reserves having a manditory life. Learn something new every day.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RIGGER 0 #32 April 4, 2006 Quote From the “Smart Reserve Packing Manual” page 23. 3.1.12 POROSITY Check the porosity in the following cases: - After 10 uses - After immersion in water - when the canopy is dry - After 20 repacks (Based on 6 month repack cycle) - After any use in abnormal conditions. No where in the manual does it say anything about shipping the canopy back to the manufacture. It is the rigger doing the I&R who makes that call. You need to quit reading your ideas into what is in fact written by the FAA and manufactures. Few points to consider: 1.How many riggers have the machine to run the test ? it cost a lot, the machine that Strong Ent. demo at the PIA sym. was around us$6000. 2.The machine & the process must be approved by the canopy mfg. 3.Do you know the spec. of the tests ? what is the Max. X cfpm for the fabric to keep the canopy in service. 4.By shipping it back to the mfg. the canopy will passed a general inspection & recertification. service station for each canopy mfg. that have the limits. Sparky, I hope this helps. "What is in fact written by the FAA & mfg." do you want to open it ? Safe Rigging !!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #33 April 4, 2006 If the manual says to check the porosity, without specifying how, isn't the rigger left with complete discretion to do so in any way they see fit according to their own judgment as licensed riggers? I think that it is reasonable to assert that the language was left intentionally vague by the mfg. I think it unreasonable to assert that the wording of the manual requires a formal test of the porosity with an expensive and not widely available machine.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #34 April 4, 2006 Quote Please look it up. Neither the Stellar manual or the Tandem Hawk manual give a manditory receritfication or service life that I can find. The Tandem manual refers to a 25 jump inspection done in the field. But that was part of the excemption. It does say the expected service life of the reserve is 20 jumps. But simply says inspect at the 120 day inspection cycle. Terry, Here is some of the info... the inspection is now yearly after 12 years (I think). I am trying to find the updated version that also has the number of reserve rides. I'll find it though #22, February 20, 1997 ITEM: A) Dual Hawk Tandem, Use of Unapproved Components B) Dual Hawk Tandem Service Life STATUS: Mandatory compliance. IDENTIFICATION: Dual Hawk Tandem Systems; PN 103000 through 103005 (Dwg No. 1151 & 68E10001). BACKGROUND: A) Strong Enterprises has determined that Dual Hawk Tandem Systems with components not approved by Strong Enterprises present a hazard that is not acceptable for tandem jumping. B) The rapid improvements of the Dual Hawk Tandem System have shown considerable safety enhancements. It is also evident that most systems older than eight years have considerable wear and deterioration with loss of performance and could pose a threat to the users. SERVICE BULLETIN: A) Only components approved by Strong Enterprises may be used on the Dual Hawk Tandem System for tandem jumping. B) All Dual Hawk Tandem Systems shall have a service life of eight years from date of manufacture or be returned to Strong Enterprises for reinspection and recertification. It may then be placed back into service for five years. This service bulletin does not change the requirements for periodic inspections and maintenance as outlined in the FAA Exemption or manufacturers instructions. DISTRIBUTION: All Dual Hawk Tandem System owners, national aero clubs, PIA, USPA, Skydiving, Parachutist. BULLETIN 22 EXPLANATION: Strong Enterprises has taken a proactive step to ensure public safety and the safety of our certified tandem instructors by issuing Service Bulletin 22 on 20 February 1997 (attached). The purpose of Bulletin 22 is to assure that Dual Hawk Systems more than 8 years old are still safe to use, and components that Strong Enterprises has not tested or approved as being compatible are not being used in these systems. Dual Hawk Tandem Systems that are not in compliance with Bulletin 22 are considered by Strong Enterprises to be un-airworthy. Therefore, the TSO on that system is void and any tandem jumps made on these systems are made in violation of FAR 105.43 (a). Any Strong Enterprises certified tandem instructor who enters into an aircraft with the intention of making a tandem jump, and the Dual Hawk System he intends using on that jump is not in compliance with Strong Enterprises Bulletin 22, has automatically voided his Strong Enterprises tandem instructor certification and that jump will be made in violation of FAR 105.43 (a) and Strong Enterprises' tandem exemption. The appropriate FAA FSDO offices will be notified of the serial number, location, and owner of all Dual Hawk Tandem Systems that are not in compliance with Bulletin 22. In consideration of the liability exposure of USPA, a copy of notices related to Bulletin 22 will be forwarded to USPA. Compliance with Bulletin 22 is quite simple: 1. Use only manufacturer approved components in your Dual Hawk system. 2. If a Dual Hawk system is more than 8 years old, return it to Strong Enterprises for inspection, refurbishing if needed, and recertification as airworthy. Recertified components are marked: 1. Hrn/con.: Labels sewn on the horizontal back strap of the passenger hrn., inside the main container, and on the front left reserve riser. 2. The main and reserve canopies: A label sewn onto the tail seam. Bill Morrissey Tandem Program Director. BS, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #35 April 4, 2006 Quote That doesn't change the facts, now does it? Sparky, What, the fact that you and I do not have a CFM/CIM gauge? So, how would a rigger check porosity without one?Doing it with some accuracy? I guess I'm asking how and what method you would use to comply with the instructions? MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #36 April 4, 2006 QuoteThe Amigo R have a limit of 5 deployments & after that must be shipped back for mfg. inspection. There is no box system. The Smart R have a limit of 20 repacks or 10 deployments which after that must be shipped to the mfg. There is no box system. So, how would a rigger check porosity without one?Doing it with some accuracy? I guess I'm asking how and what method you would use to comply with the instructions? Quote My point is that the manual does not say the canopy must be shipped back to manufacture. You can come up with all the "what ifs" in the world, it does not change what the manual says. QuoteWhat, the fact that you and I do not have a CFM/CIM gauge? Once again, you are making a statement not in evidence. Do you know for a fact that I don’t have or have access to a CFM/CIM gauge?My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RIGGER 0 #37 April 4, 2006 Sky systems S.A is "Parachute Syatems" S.A Safe Rigging !!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RIGGER 0 #38 April 4, 2006 Quote If the manual says to check the porosity, without specifying how, isn't the rigger left with complete discretion to do so in any way they see fit according to their own judgment as licensed riggers? No, the rigger is not the authority to set the spec. The porosity spec. is by the mfg. only !!! based on the mfg. tests. the no. might NOT be the same for all mfg. Safe Rigging !!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #39 April 4, 2006 QuoteQuote If the manual says to check the porosity, without specifying how, isn't the rigger left with complete discretion to do so in any way they see fit according to their own judgment as licensed riggers? No, the rigger is not the authority to set the spec. The porosity spec. is by the mfg. only !!! based on the mfg. tests. the no. might NOT be the same for all mfg. Safe Rigging !!! So where does the mfg set the spec? If you have the equipment, what is the procedure and acceptance criteria? It seems that perhaps the requirement to check porosity can be taken to be a general instruction to check the condition of the fabric. Why isn't the good judgement of a licensed rigger after trying to breath through the fabric enough per their instruction. If the manual said check porosity per ASTM test D-1234.5 or send back to the factory for testing, or whatever, then of course the spec is set, but you seem to be extending the meaning of their instruction to mean more than what is stated. You guys know more about this stuff than me of course, but it wouldn't be the first time that an official interpretation by regulatory authorities was needed because of the vagueness of a mfg instruction.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #40 April 5, 2006 Sparky, There are no "what ifs" stated by me. I agree that the manual does do not state that you have to send it back to the manufacturer, but.... Again, How would you do the porosity check? BS, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #41 April 5, 2006 QuoteAgain, How would you do the porosity check? With a CFM/CIM gauge of course.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #42 April 5, 2006 Why did I not think of that!!! MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #43 April 5, 2006 How is the procedure and acceptance criteria specified by the requirement in the manual to do a porosity check?People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #44 April 5, 2006 QuoteHow is the procedure and acceptance criteria specified by the requirement in the manual to do a porosity check? The specs would be set by the producer of the fabric would be my guess.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,048 #45 April 5, 2006 Hi sundevil, Wow, someone who knows what an ASTM is; engineer by chance? So do you know what an ANSI is? Just having some fun with you. IMO, you are correct. Without knowing the spec req'ment and the tolerances what good does 'Check the porosity' do. How about nothing? Again, IMO the fabric maker does not set the standard, the TSO holder sets the standard. It is HIS product. The fabric maker is merely a raw materials supplier. Just my old $0.02 worth (or is it worth less than that?). Jerry PS) ASTM = American Standards for Testing & Materials. ANSI = American National Standards Institute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #46 April 6, 2006 QuoteQuoteHow is the procedure and acceptance criteria specified by the requirement in the manual to do a porosity check? The specs would be set by the producer of the fabric would be my guess. I'd be really surprised if there was something in the TSO or fabric mfg spec that described what an acceptable level of porosity is before a canopy should be removed from service. Even if there is, if the manual does not point you to this spec, then I contend it is meaningless for the purpose of this discussion. The manual has no procedure, no acceptance criteria, so the rigger can proceed with their own judgement on what to do. Some will choose to send it to the factory, most will do a lot less.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
