Cheaters

[MyTwoCents 0]

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It probably sounds totally cheesy but I don't care.

Not cheesy at all. Treasure what you have. It's very valuable. Thanks for elaborating.

[misskriss 0]

I would ask you if you have children? Not that this is the only factor but an important factor nonetheless. I can't imagine being home with the kids and all that entails while my husband was out having sex with someone. I would be angered because he made a vow to me and I to him-- to be true to each other. Human beings are different.. Some are straight, some are gay, some are meat eaters and some are vegetarians. What works for you might not work for someone else. It doesn't make it right or wrong--what is important is finding someone who feels and believes the same way you do.

[MyTwoCents 0]

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I would ask you if you have children? Not that this is the only factor but an important factor nonetheless.

I do not have children. I agree that it is an important factor that can change things.

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I can't imagine being home with the kids and all that entails while my husband was out having sex with someone.

I have friends with children who have no issue with this. It's interesting you chose your husband to be away while you stay home. Remember it works in both directions. You could be having sex with someone while your husband is home with the kids. If, hypothetically, that was something you are interested in of course. I presume you'd take issue with that as well. No judgment, just an observation.

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I would be angered because he made a vow to me and I to him-- to be true to each other.

"To be true to each other." - you mean you made a vow to remain sexually exclusive with each other and to always tell each other the truth, right?

It is entirely possible to not make the first vow, but still live the second one.

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Human beings are different.. Some are straight, some are gay, some are meat eaters and some are vegetarians. What works for you might not work for someone else. It doesn't make it right or wrong--what is important is finding someone who feels and believes the same way you do.

I couldn't agree more. That's why I continued to include monogamy in my first post in this thread. It will always be a choice for some people to remain monogamous to each other along one or more axes (sexually, emotionally, spiritually, etcetera). Who am I to judge that?

However, at the same time I do wonder how much our choices are influenced by literature, music, television, religion, upbringing, our environment, societal expectations, history and doctrine.

These factors combined do not account for the entire human motivation. Free will and evolutionary biology will continue to steer some people towards lifelong monogamy. But I can't help but feel that many people let other factors steer their decisions. Factors outside the reasons found in their own mind, factors from outside the sacrifices one makes within any relationship, and factors from outside the love for the world they are in.

More often than not, this leads to missed opportunities for love. Love that is available in abundance, only restricted by jealousy, insecurity, a false sense of ownership, and the fact that a day only has 24 hours.

At an increasing rate, society's continued insistence on monogamy also leads to lying, cheating, painful break-ups, divorce, often with negative consequences for any children involved.

How many of us have been cheated on, how many of us have cheated, how many of us have divorced. How many of us know people that have cheated, been cheated on, or are divorced? How many of that could have been avoided or at least turned into mature discussion and mutual friendly separation if we had insisted on a continued dialog about our relationships in all their forms.

For what it's worth, I have never cheated, and to my knowledge I have never been cheated on. To this day I continue to be on great terms with any person I have ever been in a relationship with or have shared the bedroom with.

[kenz 0]

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I don't think people even come close to understanding that we beat ourselves up enough.

I'm sorry, but speaking as somebody who's (now ex) wife cheated on, I doubt your emotional beating was anything like those your choices had inflicted upon them.

edit: I see a few responses about how the Cheater felt afterwards.....how about some thought to how the person who was betrayed felt?

Ian

ian i feel you on this one - i understand the response made by those that have cheated on their partners and i am sure that they genuinely feel guilt - but dealing from personal experience of being cheated on - and learning more about that person afterwards - there is not a shred of anything in my mind that you can convince me that the person who cheated on me tortures himself often about it - he is a repeat offender - and has been allowed to be a repeat offender because he manipulates people into feeling sorry for him because "his world has been turned upside down etc etc" and the attention gets drawn from his actions to his manipulations... and unfortunately not only have i experienced this firsthand but ive seen other very close friends of mine deal with this as well..

now let me repeat i am not claiming that ALL cheaters are this way - but most, at least in my eyes ESPECIALLY serial cheaters do NOT deserve the benefit of the doubt that they "feel bad" because really they obviously feel nothing for anyone but themselves

"life does throw curveballs sometimes but it doesn't mean we shouldn't still swing for the homerun" ~ me

[peregrinerose 0]

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now let me repeat i am not claiming that ALL cheaters are this way - but most, at least in my eyes ESPECIALLY serial cheaters do NOT deserve the benefit of the doubt that they "feel bad" because really they obviously feel nothing for anyone but themselves

I think there's a big difference between someone who cheated one time and beats themself up for what they did to the people around them and the serial cheater who obviously feels no remorse. Two different things entirely.

I'm sorry you had to deal with someone as manipulative as that.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[Tonto 1]

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This is the part that baffles me.

It's very simple, really.

The things we find most valuable are rare. There are no exceptions to the rule. A quiet moment, noticing the wind through the trees, a shared smile in freefall, a moment of clarity, a sunset, a Da Vinci painting, gold, diamonds, even if their rarity is controlled. All are finite. Limited. Rare. Even my 5000+ skydives are a rare event, experienced for only a few short minutes each week. I doubt I will manage 10 000 dives in my lifetime. Each one I do is special in some way, each one I miss is irreplacable.

Love and sex between only two people is difficult and rare. Only a few people manage to make it work for any length of time.

Sex is only a small part of the reason I am with someone. It's a part of myself I choose to share with only one person.

I'm glad I'm not baffeled by this. I'm in a relationship with only one person, and that relationship is the most complete and satisfying relationship I have ever had.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[misskriss 0]

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It's interesting you chose your husband to be away while you stay home. Remember it works in both directions. You could be having sex with someone while your husband is home with the kids. If, hypothetically, that was something you are interested in of course. I presume you'd take issue with that as well. No judgment, just an observation

It's really not something I am interested in.

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More often than not, this leads to missed opportunities for love. Love that is available in abundance, only restricted by jealousy, insecurity, a false sense of ownership, and the fact that a day only has 24 hours.

This whole thread brought up a great conversation between my husband and I. We both agreed that we had "experienced"plenty in our past lives and in our past relationships. We found each other at a point when we both wanted the same things. We love each other and find comfort and security in that love. We find comfort and security in the fact that we don't need other opportunites for love with others. We love our friends, we love our children and we love one another. We only want to share our bodies with each other-- I definitely don't feel like we claim "ownership" to one another. Of course, we could choose to flit from flower to flower but we make the choice not to. Our love is abundant enough as is and are completely comfortable with this.
It's not because the church says so-- He is definitely not religious and I tend to think of myself as spiritual. It's not literature or music. We are very free thinking people. Like I said, we have both experienced a lot in our past lives and we've grown emotionally.

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I couldn't agree more. That's why I continued to include monogamy in my first post in this thread. It will always be a choice for some people to remain monogamous to each other along one or more axes (sexually, emotionally, spiritually, etcetera). Who am I to judge that?

And I dont judge anyone else's lifestyle either. But to imply that most monogamy is based on insecurity and jealousy would be like me saying having multiple partners is constantly needing validation from others which is a type of insecurity in itself.

[mamajumps 0]

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I think there's a big difference between someone who cheated one time and beats themself up for what they did to the people around them "me" and the serial cheater who obviously feels no remorse. "my husband" Two different things entirely.

Very well said... bravo...

[MyTwoCents 0]

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The things we find most valuable are rare.

Is there not a difference between things that are rare because the universe makes it so and things that are rare because some humans believe it should be rare?

If skydiving is more beautiful because it is rare, should we discourage people from entering the sport, lest it become too popular and stops being rare?

[Tonto 1]

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If skydiving is more beautiful because it is rare, should we discourage people from entering the sport, lest it become too popular and stops being rare?

I said it was rare for me. Minutes a week was I think the reference I used. It matters little how many millions of people choose to do it. The moments I share in that environment remain rare - for me.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[MyTwoCents 0]

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If skydiving is more beautiful because it is rare, should we discourage people from entering the sport, lest it become too popular and stops being rare?

I said it was rare for me. Minutes a week was I think the reference I used. It matters little how many millions of people choose to do it. The moments I share in that environment remain rare - for me.

But then the analogy isn't applicable. Your version implies that your partner could have sex with a million other people but that it is special for you because she only lets you do it minutes a week. I doubt that's what you meant to imply.

I'm aware I'm nitpicking here. But the scarcity argument is used too easily to justify behavior that poses obvious questions when approached rationally.

Through history mankind has fought over women, land, gold, food, water, and so forth; all because we can't share, nor respect the current owners of any resource (be it their own body, their land, their food, or whatever).

Comperse, rather than be jealous.

[Tonto 1]

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I'm aware I'm nitpicking here.

Dude. Stop pushing. You cannot compare the way *I* feel to philosophy, or skydiving, or dinner with a group of friends. It's *my* feeling, and I'll share it with one person at a time.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[MyTwoCents 0]

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Dude. Stop pushing. You cannot compare the way *I* feel to philosophy, or skydiving, or dinner with a group of friends. It's *my* feeling, and I'll share it with one person at a time.

Huh? It was you whose first response in this thread said: "It's very simple, really."

Furthermore, I wasn't the one who brought up the scarcity argument and introduced analogies with skydiving and other things.

Then, when I see the analogy breaking down, I can only conclude that that things aren't maybe that simple at all.

I have no right to argue how you feel about skydiving, philosophy, dinner, or your love to a particular special person. Those feelings are yours, and yours alone.

However, to this day I continue to look for a rational explanation for why some people take issue when their significant other chooses to love a third party. In this thread, I have not seen any good motivation, unless "that's the way I feel, and it has nothing to do with jealousy or ownership" is considered rational.

[The111 0]

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However, to this day I continue to look for a rational explanation for why some people take issue when their significant other chooses to love a third party.

I'll bite. Jealousy, plain and simple. I'm speaking for myself and nobody else, so nobody accuse me of calling you jealous.

I've read enough Heinlein to appreciate the beauty (on paper) of the polyamory you're suggesting. But I'm also certain it would not work with 99% of the people in most modern societies, and I'm not sure, but I probably fall in that 99% myself. Now, does my own pre-disposition toward potential jealousy stem from nature or nurture? Every psychological discussion possible always reverts to that one question, and it's not easily answered.

Regardless of its source, our capability for jealousy probably has a lot to do with the development of the ideas of "monogamy" and "cheating". I really can't say because I've never been in a society where anything else is embraced, and you really can't judge a practice's viability (or source) without observing it in action, in real life. I've never been cheated on (that I know), and sometimes I picture it happening and picture myself not being jealous. But I know I probably would be, and if I ask myself why, it is because I know the "cheating party" is also monogamously-minded (it doesn't matter why, just that she is), and if she has begun loving somebody else, she will probably shortly stop loving me, if she hasn't already.

I have a lot of sports I am interested in but skydiving is pretty much the only one I've practiced regularly for years. Most people are "focused" in many other areas than their relationships. Many people pick up one sport and drop the previous. Get into BASE, drop skydiving. Sure it's possible to do both, but there's almost always an undeniable focal point. So if I allowed my dearest SO to love others, I would be opening myself to the possibility that she would have very little time for me in the future. Sure, she may split her time 50/50 between me and the new guy, but maybe it would be 10/90 and I'd only see her a few times a year, and then I'd get lonely. The bottom line is that while true love should supposedly be selfless, love is also a very selfish thing (as is any human endeavor, if we are honest with ourselves). Selfishness is a virtue: maybe you know who said that. And with selfishness comes jealousy. Both of those words have such negative connotations to them that most people treat them as sins. Well, I'll be the first to admit that I selfishly (and proudly) love my girlfriend, and desire as much time with her as I can get, and that if polyamory (while intriguing in concept) could open the door to losing 90% of my time with her to somebody else, I would undoubtedly become jealous.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[MyTwoCents 0]

Great writing Matt, I really appreciate it.

Interestingly, I don't think our struggles are very different. Although I'm a proclaimed polyamorist and have had great experiences with it, I have relationships that would kill me if I lost them. Allowing my significant others to venture outside of our domain is taking a risk. To me the risk has been worth it so far, but it undeniably bears many practical issues. When the day comes that unforeseen consequences hurt me through the heart, the only thing left to console me will be the knowledge that I've given the people I love the freedom to live their life as they think is right.

Reciprocating love is not a duty, it's at best a privilege.

[livendive 8]

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However, to this day I continue to look for a rational explanation for why some people take issue when their significant other chooses to love a third party. In this thread, I have not seen any good motivation, unless "that's the way I feel, and it has nothing to do with jealousy or ownership" is considered rational.

If I were one of many with whom my SO shared her heart and her body, that would make me common. I'd prefer that I be uniquely close and special to her, and capable of satisfying as many of her wants as humanly possible. If there were a specific set of wants that I was incapable of or unwilling to satisfy, a discussion of her seeking them elsewhere could be appropriate, but if they were particularly important, I would likely consider it a sign that perhaps we weren't compatible. Similarly I think that my sharing the same level of intimacy I have with her with others would trivialize what I have with her, and that's not something I'm interested in doing.

There's a reason most people have one significant other, a few close friends and confidantes, a bunch of "friends", and a ton of friendly acquaintances. I think that reason correlates mostly with trust. I don't want the whole world knowing any of my business, I don't want friendly acquintances knowing most of my business, I don't want my "friends" knowing all of my business, and I don't need to share everything with every close friend. It is nice though, to sometimes feel free to share everything, including the myriad nuances of thought, emotion, and sexuality. The number of people whom I'm interested in extending and being granted that kind of trust is one, and if they carried on a similar level of intimacy with someone other than me, all the details that comprise me would, by definition, be up for discussion with that person, thus making my number greater than one.

Edit to add: Note this does not exclude sportfucking outside the bounds of a committed relationship, but within those bounds, intimacy and sexuality at some point eventually become linked in a synergistic manner that bolsters the whole of the relationship. After that transition, the sharing of one is perceived as the sharing of the other, as evidenced by the people who said above in this thread that "cheating" includes intimacy without sex, or for that matter, any sort of physical contact. Once a couple bonds to the point of being a team of two against the world, either party sharing the two primary things that form that bond (generally intimacy and sexuality) with another will usually be perceived as betraying the other and discrediting that bond.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[bob.dino 0]

I think there's a very big difference between someone who has cheated once and someone who has cheated twice. I'm not sure there's a big difference between someone that's cheated twice and someone that's cheated a thousand times.

[RunsWthSizzors 0]

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I don't think people even come close to understanding that we beat ourselves up enough.

I'm sorry, but speaking as somebody who's (now ex) wife cheated on, I doubt your emotional beating was anything like those your choices had inflicted upon them.

edit: I see a few responses about how the Cheater felt afterwards.....how about some thought to how the person who was betrayed felt?

Ian

BELOW ARE SOME OF MY FEELINGS ON BETRAYAL FROM EARLIER IN THIS THREAD:

I have basically lost all trust in men due to be cheated on. It is very hard to love and trust again after being betrayed time and again. You put all your faith , trust, and love into someone just to find out it was all a farce.
You feel like you don't matter. That you're not important enough to be taken seriously. It's damaging and cruel.

If you can't live without me, why aren't you dead already?

[peregrinerose 0]

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I have basically lost all trust in men due to be cheated on. It is very hard to love and trust again after being betrayed time and again. You put all your faith , trust, and love into someone just to find out it was all a farce.
You feel like you don't matter. That you're not important enough to be taken seriously. It's damaging and cruel.

That sucks that you've been cheated on multiple times. Though honestly, if I was picking the same kind of person who did the same kind of thing to me, I'd start questioning the wisdom of my choices not all men as a whole. (My history of bad choices was people who were physically violent toward me, took a while before it dawned on me I was just picking the wrong guys).

Do you want to be lumped in with "All other women" by a guy who's been hurt by multiple women? Probably not. Take each day as it comes and take each individual for the person they are, otherwise you let the assholes you've come across dominate your life. Don't let them win.

And to Ian... why do you think those of us that have admitted to cheating once feel horribly about it? It's not just for shits and giggles. It's 100% BECAUSE of what we put the other people involved through. What we did to the other people sits in our head for the rest of our lives and there's absolutely no way to atone for it.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[Dumpster 0]

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why do you think those of us that have admitted to cheating once feel horribly about it? It's not just for shits and giggles. It's 100% BECAUSE of what we put the other people involved through. What we did to the other people sits in our head for the rest of our lives and there's absolutely no way to atone for it.

Absolutely. Been there - Done that - Got the t-shirt - And it's very uncomfortable, ugly t-shirt.

Easy Does It

[Lindercles 0]

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There's a reason most people have one significant other, a few close friends and confidantes, a bunch of "friends", and a ton of friendly acquaintances. I think that reason correlates mostly with trust. I don't want the whole world knowing any of my business, I don't want friendly acquintances knowing most of my business, I don't want my "friends" knowing all of my business, and I don't need to share everything with every close friend. It is nice though, to sometimes feel free to share everything, including the myriad nuances of thought, emotion, and sexuality. The number of people whom I'm interested in extending and being granted that kind of trust is one, and if they carried on a similar level of intimacy with someone other than me, all the details that comprise me would, by definition, be up for discussion with that person, thus making my number greater than one.

Very well said. +1.

[morningdove831 0]

I have had my heart broken by a man who cheated on me. It hurt like I had never been hurt before. I will never cheat on anyone and anyone who cheats on me will get the boot and fast!

Call me old fashioned, but I think that if you're in a relationship (bf/gf, married, whatever) you should remain loyal to that person - emotionally and physically. If there comes a time where one person feels that can't happen, the relationship should come to an end.

Cheating destroys trust and trust is a very hard thing to rebuild. It has the ability to destroy entire families too. Cheating doesn't just affect the cheater and the one being cheated on - it affects family, friends and most importantly children (if there are any).

One who looks for a friend without faults will have none. -- Hasidic Saying

[livendive 8]

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Very well said. +1.

Gotta dig points, though you're an unexpected source of them.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Lindercles 0]

I'm not really sure how to take that, but I think I like it.

[livendive 8]

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I'm not really sure how to take that, but I think I like it.

Well, since I've been informed the point is redeemable elsewhere, and she added 5 on top of it for good measure, all I can say is thanks for hooking a brother up.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)