What makes an instructor....

[GravityGirl 0]

.....qualified to give gear advise?

The general consensus on DZ.com is for people to advise new jumpers to "Ask your instructors for gear advise."

To an extent I agree with this. But not fully. I try really hard to be impartial, so I would like to hear feedback from others as well.

As a gear deal AND an AFF-I, I hear a lot of stuff that makes me cringe.

A 125lb girl who's instructor advised her to get a 135 main parachute. She was trained on 230s and has never jumped anything smaller than a 190. She has 25 jumps. This is quite common.

Then there is the typical canopy or manufacturing bashing that instructors carry over from 10 years ago when they were a young jumper. There are many choices that are appropriate as a first canopy, but when an instructor is partial to one brand, they say things that limit the choices for a new jumper.

Or they forget what it's like to be a new jumper and fail to realize the learning curve that needs to take place.

Some instructors are very gear aware and give great advise. But not all of them.

An instructor doesn't necessarily devote their time to staying informed on the service bulletins, jumper feedback on beginner canopies, new canopy choices, fair market value, etc.

I think the instructor is key to indicate the size of parachutes that a jumper was trained on, and how they handled those canopies. I feel that information is extrememly valuable.

So let me know what you all think.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[AggieDave 6]

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Some instructors are very gear aware and give great advise. But not all of them.

You can insert that statement into statements about many people in skydiving. Some gear stores/sellers give bad gear advice (I'm sure you can think of a few right off the top of your head). Some riggers give bad gear advice. Some manufactures have done the same over the years. Same with other jumpers, packers, the pilot, whom ever else you would care to ask.

So who should the low time jumper ask?

Well the constant baseline still comes down to the instructors knowing the students abilities, flying characteristics and all the other factors that come into play when choosing gear.

With that stated, a rigger's opinion isn't a bad thing to have either.

However, all of these people are, well, people and their opinions are obviously screwed in some sort of a way. A rigger may have skewed opinions about a container manufacture for example. Or an instructor may be sponsered in some way by a manufacture. These are all things to be considered.

At the end of the day, taking opinions from those people still is a good choice; however, besure to weigh the opinons given with common sense.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Brains 2]

Wow, good post Bonnie.
I think we usually say "ask your instructors" mainly as a means to tell them not to seek certain advice openly on the internet. rather they ask people in person who have taught them and have seen them jump and will continue to be there to answer more questions. But you are correct when you say that some instructors still carry over some of the old brand bashing. Unfortunately i hear it all the time at my dz. I try to be impartial also, what i like may not be best for others. Hell, i jump a cobalt.

Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you.

[NWFlyer 2]

The "talk to your instructors" mantra tends to be used most commonly when someone comes to DZ.com and says, to a random community of internet users, "What should I buy?"

I think the approach should be a combination ... Perhaps the mantra needs to be "Do some research on your own, talk to your instructors and consult with a reputable gear dealer." If all three of those intersect, chances are it's a decent decision.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[koppel 3]

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reputable gear dealer

Is this an Oxy-Moron??

Seriously now we have the problem of defining this term for our New Jumper. I mean I know who I use and trust, but I also remember the first so called 'Reputable Dealer' that I dealt with. That realllly was an exspensive ordeal

I think I agree with the concept of speak to many people doing your research, use the net, talk to dealers/instructors etc

......and let them all know about your affiliation to the local Mafia

I like my canopy...


...it lets me down.

[NWFlyer 2]

Yeah, that's a good point that others brought up above - how do you know what that is, especially if you're a newbie? That's why I suggested a triangulation of self research, instructors, and gear dealers.

[GravityGirl 0]

Edit: It may be difficult for a student at some smaller DZs to find a second opinion. But then again at large DZs there may too many conflicting opinions.

Perhaps there is a instructional gap here that can be filled. Hmmmm.

Off to the drafting board.

Thanks all!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[AggieDave 6]

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I'm mostly concerned with the smaller DZs without a lot of checks and balances.

The size of the DZ has nothing to do with the quality of the instructors at that DZ.



Edit:

Ok, Bonnie has clarified via the PMs.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[NWFlyer 2]

Quote

Quote

I'm mostly concerned with the smaller DZs without a lot of checks and balances.

Actually, I find this statement rather offensive. The size of the DZ has nothing to do with the quality of the instructors at that DZ.

I read that as "smaller DZs where you might not have a gear dealer upstairs to provide another opinion."

[sid 1]

Bonnie, you bring up a very valid point. Every student/novice on the verge of buying gear should gather as much information as possible. With the availability of information via the web, from the upcoming Rigging Wiki, from Poynters (which every drop zone should have around) and from their instructors, riggers and peers, there is an abundance of information.

Then they should filter and sort that information and check and re-check before buying.

Your post struck home, because a new jumper at a dropzone that I work at was looking for gear and I got her a great deal on a Racer 2K3. Now it's no secret that I work for JumpShack on occasion, but I explained the details and differences between a one pin and two pin. I explained the perceived "pros" and "cons" between systems and she got an all black 2K3 which she was very happy with.

Until at least one person who had instructed her started saying "but it's still a piece of shit Racer." This was possibly in jest, but as a student of this instructor she has some respect for him and doesn't know whether he's serious or not and doubt starts creeping in.

Similarly, riggers in the area (other than me of course) tend to disrespect the rig because they don't know, won't learn how to pack it. Yet their own rigs are Canadian (and have Type 13 harnesses like the Racer) and are clones of other rigs and are not freefly friendly.

The Instructor using the term "POS" has previously bought a rig sight unseen from a "less than reputable dealer" who had lied about the reserve and overstuffed the reserve container (probably) causing a bent pin and necessitating a new ripcord and a "reserve swap" and I'm pretty sure had done little or no research before ordering it.

I agree with you, we tell enquirers too readily "Ask your Instructors..." but should definitely add the caveat - "then check, recheck and investigate." Damn, I remember when I got off student status in 1995 an instructor at the dz where I trained was telling ALL students to always get a round reserve and that nobody should ever consider jumping any other kind. I don't know if he's still in the sport, but if he is, I'll bet he's still telling them that too..........

Pete Draper,

Just because my life plan is written on the back of a Hooter's Napkin, it's still a life plan.... right?

[GravityGirl 0]

Just this week, I've had a customer come to me and say that his rigger (at a neighboring dz) told him that his new rig could "kill him". The rigger does not like the reserve tray design. This was a brand new very popular rig. But it happened to be a rig that rigger does not distribute.

Students and new jumpers are very impressionable.

Sid, I have to admit that I have used and abused your web site for information about gear and gear maintenance. Please keep up the good work.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[sid 1]

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J

Sid, I have to admit that I have used and abused your web site for information about gear and gear maintenance. Please keep up the good work.

that's what it's there for Bonnie! ps: I just shipped your pull out pud from JumpShack, you should have it any time now.......

Pete Draper,

Just because my life plan is written on the back of a Hooter's Napkin, it's still a life plan.... right?

[skybytch 259]

Good post, Bonnie. As you might expect I have a few opinions on this subject as well.

I also don't agree fully with the "ask your instructors" advice. We see it here in the forums all the time - "my instructor said I'll be fine at a 1.3 wingloading with 30 jumps in my logbook." I also heard it on a nearly daily basis when I was selling gear.

What makes an instructor qualified to give gear advice? Nothing. Because someone is capable of teaching basic skydiving does not mean they know anything about what gear is suitable for a novice. Same goes for riggers - because someone is capable of packing, maintaining and repairing gear does not mean they know anything about what gear is suitable for a novice. And, much as I hate to admit it, just because someone sells gear does not mean they know anything about what gear is suitable for a novice.

There is no mention of giving good gear advice in an instructor certification course or in the training required to get a rigger's ticket. Likewise, there is no requirement anywhere that someone who sells gear know anything about it either - although from what I've seen the majority of gear dealers do have that knowledge.

Perhaps this subject needs to be brought up to USPA. The addition of a section on "how to give gear advice" to the coach and instructor courses may be a good idea.

So how does a novice - or a jumper of any experience - know who's advice to trust? There are a few things that I think show that a person knows their shit and has the best interests of the jumper asking the question in mind.

If you hear an instructor/rigger/gear dealer say "you should buy this because it's the best" - this person is uninformed and you should consider any gear advice they give to be suspect. Someone who knows what they are talking about will tell you that there is no one piece of gear (main, reserve, container, helmet, altimeter, etc) that is the best for every jumper. Every skydiver is different - different size and shaped bodies, different shaped heads, different levels of risk tolerance, etc. What works best for me may or may not be what will work best for you, and what works best for you may or may not be what will work best for Bob.

If you hear an instructor/rigger/gear dealer say "you shouldn't buy this because it's shit" - this person may be uninformed and you should seek out the opinions of others before deciding whether to listen to that person or not. Someone who knows their shit will tell you that for every piece of gear out there, there is someone who thinks it's a piece of crap.

If an instructor/rigger/gear dealer seems to be biased toward a particular manufacturer, ask why they are biased before deciding to trust their advice or not. They may be sponsored by that manufacturer. A gear dealer may be biased toward one manufacturer because they get a better deal on their products. Ask and consider the answers before trusting their advice
100%.

And finally, if you hear an instructor/rigger/gear dealer say "you'll be fine on that size as long as you are careful" or "that's what I did and I was fine, you will be too" - RUN AWAY!!!

Quote

I read that as "smaller DZs where you might not have a gear dealer upstairs to provide another opinion."

That's where the larger gear dealers can come in. When I was working for Square One I spent many hours talking to and emailing with newer jumpers who jump at dz's where there is no gear dealer. I felt that was a big part of my job - educate the customer, let them make their own decision and then get the sale.

Those who don't have a gear dealer onsite can call or email any of the larger gear dealers and pick their brains. The good ones don't mind answering questions at all.

[rasmack 0]

And now ladies and Bruces...(drum roll) the noob perspective.

I just wanted to say that it isn't all bad. We are not... stupid (for lack of a better word). It is not often difficult to discern between instructors and what they say. At least I tend to put a lot more weight on a well presented and thoroughly argued position, also when the topic falls on skydiving gear.

When I was looking for my first rig, I spent a lot of time interrogating instructors and riggers. Now, I weigh 240 out the door, and one instructor I talked to thought that I should just buy a Sabre 190 and be done with it. I must say I did not put much emphasis on his opinion when I weighed it up against the more convincingly explained alternatives. The instructors and riggers who took the time to sit down with me and point out and explain things, they deserve a lot more credit in this respect.

In his defence I should say, though, that we buy our first rig a bit later than in the states, but still...

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[BIGUN 1,090]

Good point. You give me reason to pause. Perhaps Instructor first, validated by rigger, and talk to your gear dealer?

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[tr027 0]

3 words: Gear Coach Rating!

"The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957

[diablopilot 2]

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What makes an instructor....
.....qualified to give gear advise?

Nothing.

Most have the basic knowlage and experience to advise on sugested novice wingloading. Other than that.....

Experience, and open mind and longevity in the sport can give a better ablility to give good advice.

Working in the gear industry helps a bit too.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Speed2000 0]

Funny how no one has mentioned the local S&TA.

• Quote

[diablopilot 2]

What makes THEM qualified then?

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[riggerrob 561]

There is no mention of giving good gear advice in an instructor certification course or in the training required to get a rigger's ticket. Likewise, there is no requirement anywhere that someone who sells gear know anything about it either - although from what I've seen the majority of gear dealers do have that knowledge.

Perhaps this subject needs to be brought up to USPA. The addition of a section on "how to give gear advice" to the coach and instructor courses may be a good idea.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Cue Canadian National Anthem.

This is another area where CSPA is ahead of USPA.
During CSPA Rigger A courses, we spend a half hour on "equipment selection." ... teaching young riggers how to give decent advice to skydivers considering gear purchases.
We also spend a lot of time talking about TSO testing procedures, staying within manufacturers' guidelines, etc.

CSPA also has a "Know Your Gear" Seminar that is often given during spring-time Safety Days. However, since skydivers have such short attention spans, this seminar is usually abbreviated to something like "care and feeding of closing loops" or "why you should take the twists out of your steering lines."

[GravityGirl 0]

Ding! Ding! Ding!

"Know your gear seminar" eh?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[Speed2000 0]

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What makes THEM qualified then?

JP,
Please don't construe my post to mean I am suggesting that S&TAs are a single point solution, or should be made a single point solution, for giving gear advice. If there was a single group of skydivers both universally qualified and accessible to give gear advice to new jumpers, then this thread would not exist.

I brought up the subject of S&TAs for two reasons:

1) They can be a resource for the new jumper (in addition to the triad of instructors, riggers, and gear dealers suggested above) because:

a) overall, they meet two of the three criteria you suggest: experience and longevity in the sport. The third, open mindedness, is an extremely subjective requirement, which varies from individual to individual and is difficult to apply to a group.

b) responsibility. Among their other myriad duties, one of the jobs of an S&TA is, "provides safety and training advice to skydivers, drop zone operators, and rating holders" (S&TA Handbook, pg 4).

c) interest. Although only anecdotal evidence, no S&TA I have ever talked to wants to write another incident report.

d) access. Every region, every state with a USPA member dropzone, and most foreign countries with a USPA dropzone, has at least one S&TA whose contact information is readily available on the USPA website under safety. Many DZs have more than one S&TA.

2) The S&TA can be a resource for the frustrated DZO, instructor, rigger, or gear dealer. Before you laugh, I have personally seen an S&TA take action regarding an individual giving egregious advice to student jumpers, and I am far from being a big fish in the sport. It does happen and, in this particular case, the problem was resolved (for obvious reasons, I won't go into specifics here). Whether or not informal resolution is the most effective method of enforcing a standard is something that could be dabated at length, but that is not the purpose of this thread.

Once again, I am NOT saying every new jumper should ask only their S&TA for gear advice. I am, however, saying that gear selection is safety and training related and that S&TAs tend to be experienced, involved, and safety aware skydivers who can be a helpful resource to both the new jumper and the frustrated mentor.

Blue Skies,
Johnny

As a general comment on this thread, I think there's enough to this subject for an article in Parachutist. I know it has been done before and that articles already exist on this website, but considering the average half-life of a jumper entering the sport is about three years and not every jumper reads the articles here, perhaps it's time for a reprise.

edited for grammar

[NWFlyer 2]

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Ding! Ding! Ding!

"Know your gear seminar" eh?

karenmeal led one of those at Snohomish's Safety Day last year. We gear-checked three rigs (one with LOTS of obvious problems, one with a few subtle problems, and one with no problems) ... then that segued into a discussion of care and feeding of your gear, including maintenance schedules and how to tell when things needed repair. It was a great seminar and I hope they do something similar this year. I learned a lot (I was a fresh A license holder then) and would welcome the refresher now that I've been at it and have had my own gear for a year now.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[inextremis 0]

The idea that an instructor might not be a rigger is sort of a recent phenomenon in this sport. It used to be that the "dropzone leadership" (for lack of a better term) started out with the old Jumpmaster rating, and eventually got both a rigger's ticket and their "I." That was because the "I" at smaller DZs usually packed the student's gear, and had to be a rigger to do so. Now that we view the instructional and rigging skill sets as independent, we have a really interesting set of circumstances in the sport (and in this thread). Great question and responses.

[chachi 0]

karen's a dork