MakeItHappen 15 #1 January 6, 2006 Quote Quote Another solution is to avoid the pilot chute in tow scenario by jumping a pull-out. WRONG! Why Are you wrong? a. The pull-out handle can and has entangled with the PC resulting in PC in tow. b. Not cocking the PC whether Pull-out or Throw-out can andhas resulted in a PC in tow. take care, space Hey Space, This discussion about pilot chute in tow has been done ad-nauseum. We don't need another debate. The one point I would like to make is to clarify what a 'pilot chute in tow' malfunction is. You see when this definition is not mutually agreed upon, debates extend into other malfunctions. A pilot chute in tow malfunction is one where the main pilot chute is in the airstream and the main pin HAS NOT CLEARED the main closing loop. If you can show me a pull-out system that allows the main pilot chute [cocked or uncocked, tangled or untangled] in the airstream without the main pin clearing the closing loop, I'll be happy to debate a new issue. Quote Post edited to remove flaming (This post was edited by billvon on Jan 5, 2006, 4:05 PM) I miss all the good stuff. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,473 #2 January 6, 2006 >A pilot chute in tow malfunction is one where the main pilot chute is in >the airstream and the main pin HAS NOT CLEARED the main closing loop. I disagree. A pilot chute in tow malfunction is one where the PC is in the air and cannot extract the deployment bag. You can get it on a throwout rig if the bridle is misrouted; occasionally the bridle will pull the pin, half-hitch around a flap and not deploy the bag. You can get it when the PC is not cocked; the PC will sometimes bop about, even pull the pin, but will not have enough drag to extract the bag from the container. You can get it in wingsuits; occasionally with a small PC or short bridle with a tight container, the PC will pull the pin but be unable to extract the bag due to the odd extraction angle. Why is it important? It's really not. They all fall into the same general malfunction category; a high speed malfunction where the main MAY open in the near future, and there is something to interfere with the reserve. It is unlike a total in which there is little chance of a sudden deployment (i.e. hard pull or lost PC.) It is also unlike a low speed mal for obvious reasons. That being said, if you want to come up with a new term to describe a PC in tow with a pulled pin, go right ahead. It seems like an unneccesary complication, though, since that's not an important distinction when it comes to how to deal with it (and often cannot be identified by the jumper during the mal.) So you'd have a "PC in tow" and a "PC out pin pulled extraction failure mal" or whatever that look the same and require the same reaction. This is getting a bit away from the subject of the thread. The thing I wanted to get out there, though, is that a pullout can have the same sort of PC-in-tow mal - even if you call it something different. Both require swift action and both can result in a 2 out scenario. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
meatbomb 0 #3 January 6, 2006 QuoteThat being said, if you want to come up with a new term to describe a PC in tow with a pulled pin, go right ahead. It seems like an unneccesary complication, though, since that's not an important distinction when it comes to how to deal with it (and often cannot be identified by the jumper during the mal.) So you'd have a "PC in tow" and a "PC out pin pulled extraction failure mal" or whatever that look the same and require the same reaction. Bill, I'd disagree...let's call the different malfunction a container lock. If on a pull-out, I have a container lock, I am definitely cutting away, as the bag will almost definitely come out after I pull the reserve (there'll be no pin to hold it in). With a PC in tow on a throw-away, you don't know whether you have a PC in tow, which may well not release the pin, and thus the bag, or a container lock, which will almost definitely do so. To me, pin in or pin out is a very important distinction. That's what I base my reserve procedures on, if the pin's out, I've got something to cut-away...--- Swoopert, CS-Aiiiiiii! Piccies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base283 0 #4 January 6, 2006 QuoteA pilot chute in tow malfunction is one where the main pilot chute is in the airstream and the main pin HAS NOT CLEARED the main closing loop. Says who? I totally disagree. The name says it all. A "pilot chute in tow" is where, the pilot chute is in tow (hence the name). From what source do you derive your info? I mean I can give you credit if the term "pilot chute in tow" was coined by you. or those that did coin it gave that definition. Thanks in advance, Take care, space Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #5 January 6, 2006 Quote QuoteA pilot chute in tow malfunction is one where the main pilot chute is in the airstream and the main pin HAS NOT CLEARED the main closing loop. Says who? From Parachutist June 1997 page 41: "A pilot chute in tow occurs when you've thrown your pilot chute, but it doesn't pull your pin, and the container remains locked." .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmcd308 0 #6 January 6, 2006 Jan, I hate to weigh in on the side opposite you, since from watching prior debates on here that is a good way to get made to look like an idiot, but I am going to vote for the definition of PCIT that is not pin-dependent. If I throw out my PC and the bag does not clear my back for whatever reason, I am calling that a PCIT, regardless of whether the pin cleared. I will also agree with those who say this is primarily an issue of semantics, since pin in or pin out, I still have 1.) a PC in space that I would prefer to be clear for my reserve, 2.) no main despite my having followed my normal procedure to get one, and 3.) very little time to live if I do not change my descent rate. ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NelKel 0 #7 January 6, 2006 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A pilot chute in tow malfunction is one where the main pilot chute is in the airstream and the main pin HAS NOT CLEARED the main closing loop. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Says who? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Parachutist June 1997 page 41: "A pilot chute in tow occurs when you've thrown your pilot chute, but it doesn't pull your pin, and the container remains locked."<<<<<< Someone, sometime ago stated to me that elbow the side of the container. I just let it go and never gave that statement any credibility. Anyone ever done that?_________________________________________ Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmcd308 0 #8 January 6, 2006 I personally know a military jumper who did it on a HAHO. There is also a thread on here somewhere we someone (skreamer, maybe?) grabbed the bridle and tossed the main bag into the airstream. There are lots of things that might work to get your main out, and lots of folks have done stuff that resulted in getting the main out. But never forget: tick-tock, tick-tock, tick-tock. As Ron says, STOP THE SYDIVE! Brent ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #9 January 6, 2006 I've always been under the impression that when the container is held shut by the closing loop, it's a PC in tow. When the container is open but the bag fails to come out, it's called a container lock. The pilot chute is not necessarily "towing" on anything. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RogerRamjet 0 #10 January 6, 2006 A pilot chute in tow is just that, a pilot chute over your back with nothing extracting. I think I can speak on this as I'm pretty sure I had the first ever pilot chute in tow on a hand deploy rig while testing for Bill Booth. We called it a pilot chute in tow at that time (1974), so the term pre-dates the magazine by a couple of decades. You might also note that the original Wonderhog used a bight of the bridle to close the container, pins came much later. In this particular case, the pilot chute was too small and did not have enough force to extract the bag. I reached back and pulled the bag from the container with the bridle at which point deployment resumed without further incident. ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #11 January 6, 2006 QuoteJan, I hate to weigh in on the side opposite you, since from watching prior debates on here that is a good way to get made to look like an idiot, but I am going to vote for the definition of PCIT that is not pin-dependent. If I throw out my PC and the bag does not clear my back for whatever reason, I am calling that a PCIT, regardless of whether the pin cleared. Too funny ;) I am going to be lazy. post 1 post 2 post 3 .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,473 #12 January 6, 2006 >When the container is open but the bag fails to come out, it's called a container lock. Or when the container remains closed but the pin or ripcord is pulled; we saw a few of them at Brown when we had some unusually thick closing loops installed. A little pounding cleared them, and we replaced the closing loops. Again I don't think it matters much; the 'container lock' you mention with a throwout vs a PC in tow that does not pull the pin look the same to the jumper and thus should probably be handled the same. (Hard to handle the mal differently if you can't tell it's different!) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #13 January 6, 2006 You would know it's different if you have a pull out, because you know that the pin was pulled. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RogerRamjet 0 #14 January 6, 2006 QuoteYou would know it's different if you have a pull out, because you know that the pin was pulled. So??? The pilot chute is still in tow behind you, regardless of why and the procedure to deal with it would be the same as you could not tell if the bridle separated from the pin, the bridle hung on part of the container, the bridle looped around the PC, you forgot to cock it, whatever. You are still towing the pilot chute and have precious little time to react... ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #15 January 6, 2006 Quote So??? The pilot chute is still in tow behind you, regardless of why and the procedure to deal with it would be the same [snip] That's the whole point. The procedures may not be the same. Whether the pin has cleared the closing loop is an important factor in determining EPs - at least for people that use a 'pull reserve' EP for totals. This discussion is meaningless for people that use 'cutaway-pull reserve' EP for all malfunctions. Originally, the USPA recommended procedure for a pilot chute in tow was to pull reserve. The pilot chute in tow was considered a total malfunction. This recommendation was given with the understanding that the container was closed, ie the pin had not cleared the closing loop. Most people will cutaway-pull reserve when they know that their container is open and the main is not opening. People with a 'pull reserve' EP for totals will pull reserve when they know the container is closed. If you cannot tell the difference between two mals that look the same and have different EPs then you have an ambiguous situation. That is precisely what happens when you compare a pilot chute in tow to a container lock on a throw out rig. This ambiguous situation would not happen with a ripcord or pullout system because you know whether or not the pin has cleared the loop. Therefore, you know which EP to use. The current USPA recommendations give you a choice between pull reserve or cutaway-pull reserve. This is because over the years people have done it both ways and lived. People have done it both ways and died. It's split about 50-50. Poll jumpers that have had a pilot chute in tow and you'll see there is no predominant method. Part of the split comes from the ambiguous situation mentioned. We don't know how many of those pilot chute in tows where really pack closures. So we really don't know which EP works the best for a pilot chute in tow (one where the pin has not cleared the loop). Some of those reported pilot chute in tows could have been pack closures. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RogerRamjet 0 #16 January 6, 2006 And if the pin separates from the bridle? How do you know what you have then with your pull out? The container is still locked, but you "KNOW" it isn't. You are moving too fast to make any in depth assessment of the situation, you should know what you will do for pilot chute in tow and do it (IMO). Overall, I don't really disagree with you except that to me, any time you are draging the pilot chute behind you, it is a pilot chute that is being towed, regardless of what it's snagged on or if the container is locked or not. ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #17 January 6, 2006 Quote And if the pin separates from the bridle? How do you know what you have then with your pull out? The container is still locked, but you "KNOW" it isn't. Trial and error 101 1. Pack your pull-out the regular way (i.e. with the pilotchute inside the container losely on top of the main bag) 2. NOW close the container with a temporary locking pin in stead of the straight pin that is attached to the base of your pilot chute... 3. Gear up. Lay down on a creeper, grab your pud and pull... (Did you manage to get the pilotchute out? If so, noticed any difference?...) "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #18 January 7, 2006 QuoteQuote And if the pin separates from the bridle? How do you know what you have then with your pull out? The container is still locked, but you "KNOW" it isn't. Trial and error 101 1. Pack your pull-out the regular way (i.e. with the pilotchute inside the container losely on top of the main bag) 2. NOW close the container with a temporary locking pin in stead of the straight pin that is attached to the base of your pilot chute... 3. Gear up. Lay down on a creeper, grab your pud and pull... (Did you manage to get the pilotchute out? If so, noticed any difference?...) I haven't tried it, but I think it is very likely that the feeling of the pin separating from the bridle can feel like the pin pulling out of the closing loop like normal. Next there would then be a short distance (depending on how easily your bridle from pin to PC can be pulled out from the closed container) where the handle & bridle can move freely before it would stop because of the PC still being in the closed container. That sudden stop might cause you to lose your grip on the pull out handle. This might feel a lot like the PC grabbing air and pulling itself from your grip, as pull out PCs do with the attachment at the base. So the user might think it was an ordinary container opening sequence, except that the handle was pulled out of their hand a little sooner than usual. The feeling of the bag lifting would not be there, but I think it is likely to feel like the pin was pulled and PC did clear the container. Even if losing the grip on a pull out PC happens just because of a difficult to extract pin, I think it is possible that the jumper might not be very certain whether the pin actually cleared or not. This scenario, I think, is a way in which throw out and pull out systems have more in common than pull out advocates like to acknowledge. The only pull out I have used was on my first rig, a really old sweethog with a martin baker handle, so it was easier to keep hold of the handle compared to soft puds. I hope modern pull out users will consider this and reply with their thoughts.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #19 January 7, 2006 QuoteYou would know it's different if you have a pull out, because you know that the pin was pulled. I think you and Jan are not considering that it is possible, I think, to be wrong about the pin being pulled with a pull out system, as I posted just above.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #20 January 7, 2006 QuoteI haven't tried it, but I think it is very likely that the feeling of the pin separating from the bridle can feel like the pin pulling out of the closing loop like normal. Ah - but that is where you are wrong! Why? Because of the angle of your arm; where normaly IF the PC get's pulled from your hand your arm would be stretched sideways under an angle of roughly 90 degrees and the pull force is in an upright direction (even so much that you shouldn't be mixing pull-out and high loaded canopies that react 'surprisingly' with slight unstability on opening) here the thing gets blocked almost immediately. Lots of people have proven my point by (in the pre-AAD times) losing grip on the pud and spending the rest of their life trying to find it back, somewhere between the corner of the container and the grommets. I'm certain they wouldn't have done that if they thought their container to be open with the pilotchute out. (Mind you - post jump gear inspection would almost always reveal 'pud out of place, closing loop of main broken, the other two handles in place...') BUT (as this is spinning off topic fast into pro's and con's of opening systems) I'm with MakeitHappen on the PC in tow subject: When you have thrown a pilotchute and are not stopped in your track towards terra firma, you would have no way of knowing if your container is closed (pin holding everything in place) or open (container itself 'clinging' onto the main bag) In situation one you can get away with silver only most of the time, situation two might require cut-away first. Cutting away first takes one extra second - if you wasted that second already in freefall then in the next life I suggest you make it a habit of opening slightly higher... And besides that anyone ever experienced or even heard of a pin seperating from the pull-out? "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base283 0 #21 January 7, 2006 QuoteFrom Parachutist June 1997 page 41: "A pilot chute in tow occurs when you've thrown your pilot chute, but it doesn't pull your pin, and the container remains locked." I am away from home at the moment and don´t have time to read all of this and make an informed response other than to question who was the author of the article in From Parachutist June 1997 page 41: Thanks in advance, space Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base283 0 #22 January 7, 2006 Quote from Poynter and Turoff: 126-7: “Pilot chute in tow may be short or long. It is short when the pilot chute bridle is looped around something such as a harness strap.”.... “The pilot chute in tow is long when the pilot chute pulls the bridle line to its full extent but does not pull the pin securing the main container.” I believe this is in reference to visual clues. Even so a pullout can have a PCIT according to these gods, unlike you say. Quote RogerRamJet wrote: A pilot chute in tow is just that, a pilot chute over your back with nothing extracting. I think I can speak on this as I'm pretty sure I had the first ever pilot chute in tow on a hand deploy rig while testing for Bill Booth There ya go! Thanks Roger! Quote Jan wrote: First the definition of a pilot chute in tow: - the pilot chute has been extracted from the pouch (where ever it is located), thrown into the airstream and the pin has NOT cleared the closing loop. A PCIT malfunction has a CLOSED container. Who has invented this definition? it looks strangely like your writing style. hmmmmmmmmm...Do you jump a pull out? Should not definitions be unbiased? Check out what I found from your links.. It reeks of bias. Quote Jan wrote: "What do I recommend? I can not decide whether or not to cutaway from a PCIT, so I avoid the situation completely. I jump a pud" Jan, I think I see the point that you were trying to get across with your links. That you disagreed with USPA BSR´s response to this type of mal and which I applaud you because I think your response is on the logic train and I would do the same. But how can you diss them and then cite them for authoritative info? I am angry with you for throwing your bias on such a life or death situation, being the cornerstone of knowledge resource that you are, you have certain criteria to maintain to remain a cornerstone. It seems from the posts that a PCIT is exactly the that. A "Pilot Chute In Tow". The bad side of this now is that my Velcro BASE rig can have a PCIT with me attached. Take care, space Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #23 January 7, 2006 QuoteEven so a pullout can have a PCIT according to these gods, unlike you say. Since I'm not a religious person, I'll skip the gods and go back to the definition (and if I'm allowed maybe Jan's whole point of discerning two different situations that would appear to be the same if you find yourself in any of them): Is there a pin still through the loop, keeping the container closed OR is the container open? I think you would have to stretch the imagination pretty far to come up with a pull-out pilotchute in tow WITH A CLOSED CONTAINER (i.e. the pin still in place...) With the throw out the distinction Jan makes /proposes is even more important because on opening of the reserve the tension in the main container lessens as we all know... With throw out PC in tow I have seen several of them with the pin still in place upon landing. I have also seen bags 'not leaving their tray' (i.e. container open) That alone leads me to the conclusion Jan has a valid point. And for the time being we might also forget about scenario's with the pouch on the misrouted bellyband (almost extinct IMO - if anyone still jumps it then let him carefully revise his procedures and not be influenced by this discussion - the same goes for legstrappouches...) Quotehow can you diss them and then cite them for authoritative info? Seems to me she is not 'dissing' them but asking attention to fallacies in reasoning. QuoteThe bad side of this now is that my Velcro BASE rig can have a PCIT with me attached. I'm not familiar with base equipment other than that it seems to me you have a very short time and only one option, which is Roger Ramjet's original solution... For the time being I think it would be wiser to keep baserigs altogether out of this discussion, were it alone since most of them don't have a cutaway + reserve option... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base283 0 #24 January 7, 2006 QuoteAnother solution is to avoid the pilot chute in tow scenario by jumping a pull-out. This is my burr. She is wrong. She has validated this by the links provided. Which definition do you speak of? Who defined it? What makes them a god to dictate what is what? A PCIT is exactly what it implies IMHO. It seems in others opinions also. QuoteSeems to me she is not 'dissing' them but asking attention to fallacies in reasoning. umm this is dissing (disagreeing). I agree that Jan has a valid point in her other arguments, but she can´t just up and jump to a biased definition because she jumps a pull out. Bottom line IMHO is that she may be misleading up & comings by the false statement she made. That´s my beef. take care, space Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #25 January 7, 2006 Quoteumm this is dissing (disagreeing). umm, I thought that nowadays dissing ment disrespecting. Maybe seen the wrong movies then... Dissing is a slang term derived from the word disrespect. The verb "to dis" originated in African American Vernacular English, though its use has become widespread among people of many racial and social backgrounds. source "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
